GDT - KC Royals @ Toronto Blue Jays (3/3) 3:07pm ET

[Omar]

Yeah, and you don't know that "they didn't even try"

 

I mean, unless you were sitting in all the talks they had with players, agents and other teams execs

 

When the Dodgers were in town last week Hazel mentioned on the broadcast that Teo told her he was in talks with the Jays but he wanted a multi year deal and the Jays said no. So he went to the highest one year deal he could get.

Edited May 2, 2024 by Omar

[Brownie19]

When Seattle was in town last week Hazel mentioned on the broadcast that Teo told her he was in talks with the Jays but he wanted a multi year deal and the Jays said no. So he went to the highest one year deal he could get.

 

I suspect that's a very good decision by the Jays. Teo's savant page gets colder every year and this could be the 4th year in a row his K% increases...

[Brownie19]

Lol if true. Our coaching staff is a mess.

 

The only time our offense was good was when Dante Bichette was helping out

 

That is true. I wonder if that's just a coincidence or not. It's not like I heard Semien talk about how Dante was responsible for his turn around (that saved his career). But it was Vlad's, Teo's and Espinal's best year at the plate. It wasn't Bo's, Springer's, Gurriel's or Jansen's best year. The biggest difference in 2021 is we generally had everyone hitting. The only guys that s*** the bed that year were Grichuk (545 PA's, 85 wRC+) and Biggio.

 

I struggle with this mentality. If a player improves due to offseason changes, the Jays coaches are not responsible, but if a player doesn't improve, or gets worse, the Jays coaches are primarily responsible?

 

Are the Braves hitting coaches to blame for Acuna's horrendous start to this season? Are the Leafs skating coaches to blame for their s***** playoff performances? It would be fascinating to see just how much impact all these secondary coaches have on the actual results. Suspect we'll never know.

[connorp]

Pffftttt... not a chance, Jays win 90 was what I said, I'm not letting a s*** April and small sample change my mind, unlike the likes of you troll.

 

I’ll troll on stuff like IKF being terrible and the Varsho trade some more when he comes crashing down, etc

But the Jays being terrible is just sad. I liked Springer, was huge guy for signing him.. at some point reality kicks in. Vlad, Kirk I liked coming up etc

[Spanky99]

When the Dodgers were in town last week Hazel mentioned on the broadcast that Teo told her he was in talks with the Jays but he wanted a multi year deal and the Jays said no. So he went to the highest one year deal he could get.

 

Figured as much.

[Spanky99]

I’ll troll on stuff like IKF being terrible and the Varsho trade some more when he comes crashing down, etc

But the Jays being terrible is just sad. I liked Springer, was huge guy for signing him.. at some point reality kicks in. Vlad, Kirk I liked coming up etc

 

lol...

[Eat My Shatkins]

You can't be serious? It's the job of a front office during an offseason to fix or improve issues that plagued the team the year before to the best of their ability. Even if it's a slight improvement.

 

After the struggles offensively in 2023, this front office had an entire offseason to improve the lineup and instead you're asking what was the FO supposed to do? Like you're giving them a free pass to stand pat and keep the status quo, which wasn't going to work and so far isn't working.

 

Other than bringing in Justin Turner to replace Brandon Belt they didn't improve the lineup at all. Probably made it worse. The FO needs to be held accountable for fumbling the ball again if they don't address the lineup needs before the deadline.

 

Yes I'm seriously asking what they should have done. People keep saying they should have pulled some sort of miracle out of their asses or given bloated contracts to risky players which likely would have made things worse in the long run.

[keggy]

When Spencer Horwitz proves the doubters wrong and hits .290 with 7 homers but good 1b defense and still gets 2.9 WAR you should get his Jersey. He will be the best player on the Jays 75 win future teams.

 

(cardinal rule of Jays down cycles, can't lose more than 70 and get good draft pick so guys like Spencer will always help them to the 75 win mark).

 

This team has a monopoly over arguably the largest market in MLB. If the organization can't build a sustainable winner without tanking for the 1st overall pick that's a reflection of the org.

[Terminator]

Yes I'm seriously asking what they should have done. People keep saying they should have pulled some sort of miracle out of their asses or given bloated contracts to risky players which likely would have made things worse in the long run.

 

Most of the haters and losers can't even correctly identify where Atkins is f***ing up. It has nothing to do with his offseason signings.

 

If you go back and look, most of them wanted Jorge Soler over Justin Turner. They thought we should have signed Matt Chapman instead of IKF. They were against KK (ok maybe the wheels are falling off here but he was pretty cheap) and wanted Teoscar (would block more playing time for Schneider anyway). All of that would have been far more expensive and the team would be worse lol. But they STILL use the offseason moves as their MAIN argument.

 

Drafting, player development and on field performance for the core offensive players are where we are struggling. But even then, outside of Vlad it's not the exact same group struggling. Bo was good last year and sucks this year. Varsho sucked last year and is hitting well this year.

[Eat My Shatkins]

Most of the haters and losers can't even correctly identify where Atkins is f***ing up. It has nothing to do with his offseason signings.

 

If you go back and look, most of them wanted Jorge Soler over Justin Turner. They thought we should have signed Matt Chapman instead of IKF. They were against KK (ok maybe the wheels are falling off here but he was pretty cheap) and wanted Teoscar (would block more playing time for Schneider anyway). All of that would have been far more expensive and the team would be worse lol. But they STILL use the offseason moves as their MAIN argument.

 

Drafting, player development and on field performance for the core offensive players are where we are struggling. But even then, outside of Vlad it's not the exact same group struggling. Bo was good last year and sucks this year. Varsho sucked last year and is hitting well this year.

 

Exactly.

 

"They did nothing to fix the offense"

 

Yeah nothing except go after the only two proven elite bats available, but the chances of getting either was basically nil right from the start.

 

They really didn't have much choice other than shore up the D and pitching and hope Springer, Vlad, Kirk and Varsho brought their bats this season. Well, Varsho did but sadly Bo has negated that improvement by completely crapping the bed this year.

 

The other option was to make things even worse by handing out massive deals to Chapman and Bellinger. Imagine where'd we be now if they'd made that mistake. Screwed this year, and screwed for the next many years too with those contracts on the books.

 

At least this way they are positioned to make a clean transition from the Bo/Vlad era if things don't get turned around this season.

[Stangstag]

Was at the game yday... zzzzz

 

My wife said I should get a new jersey, I said there isn't a single player from this team that I want to walk around with on my back and left it at that.

 

Blank Jersey. Get one of the old ones from 2023 before they go extinct

[Brownie19]

Blank Jersey. Get one of the old ones from 2023 before they go extinct

 

Or just customize it. Put your own name and #69 on the back. Those guys always look so pimp.

[Masterbather]

Yes I'm seriously asking what they should have done. People keep saying they should have pulled some sort of miracle out of their asses or given bloated contracts to risky players which likely would have made things worse in the long run.

 

What a great way to judge a major league baseball front office, by comparing their moves to what a bunch of blowhards say on a message board. Do you also judge a good surgeon based on whether you could do it better?

 

Nobody here is being paid millions of dollars by a reputable organization to do that job, they're not judged on the job they can do relative to what a bunch of f***ing clowns on this board say, they're judged by their performance. By contender standards, which I remind you we're supposed to be, we aren't very good, whether it's players coaches or both, and the farm is thin, with basically no pitching to turn to at the moment. That's their job, and they haven't done a good enough job, that's the bottom line.

[Eat My Shatkins]

What a great way to judge a major league baseball front office, by comparing their moves to what a bunch of blowhards say on a message board. Do you also judge a good surgeon based on whether you could do it better?

 

Nobody here is being paid millions of dollars by a reputable organization to do that job, they're not judged on the job they can do relative to what a bunch of f***ing clowns on this board say, they're judged by their performance. By contender standards, which I remind you we're supposed to be, we aren't very good, whether it's players coaches or both, and the farm is thin, with basically no pitching to turn to at the moment. That's their job, and they haven't done a good enough job, that's the bottom line.

 

 

I'm not judging the front office, I'm questioning the people who continually complain that they didn't "fix" the offense.

 

I never said the FO did a good or bad job, I'm saying from our view point it doesn't seem like there was much they could do with what was available, other than shore up D and pitching and try to help the hitters already on the team rebound back closer to career norms. It hasn't worked so far and it actually looks like some of these hitters have gotten even worse possibly.

[Terminator]

What a great way to judge a major league baseball front office, by comparing their moves to what a bunch of blowhards say on a message board. Do you also judge a good surgeon based on whether you could do it better?

 

Nobody here is being paid millions of dollars by a reputable organization to do that job, they're not judged on the job they can do relative to what a bunch of f***ing clowns on this board say, they're judged by their performance. By contender standards, which I remind you we're supposed to be, we aren't very good, whether it's players coaches or both, and the farm is thin, with basically no pitching to turn to at the moment. That's their job, and they haven't done a good enough job, that's the bottom line.

 

This is a sabremetric friendly message board. If you don't want to look under the hood and critically discuss why the front office might be failing and instead just want to look at the results to come to your conclusion, then you might be better off on Reddit or Twitter.

[Laika]

I don't know why this is so hard for (some of) you to understand.

 

Did they do a bad job this offseason, in a nutshell? No.

 

Was their situation this offseason self-inflicted? Yes. Develop a few more quality players and you don't have to go desperately hunting for offense or defense or relievers when the f***ing weather changes.

[Brownie19]

This is a sabremetric friendly message board. If you don't want to look under the hood and critically discuss why the front office might be failing and instead just want to look at the results to come to your conclusion, then you might be better off on Reddit or Twitter.

 

Bingo. I think most often, I'm frustrated with those who just look at the results and say "see, they are bad", whereas I am much more process based. Even if you do everything right, you still fail miserably a % of the time as there's a ton of s*** outside of your control. I think that gets overlooked far too often. That said, you do need to find the balance results ultimately play some role in your evaluation of success/failure.

[Brownie19]

I don't know why this is so hard for (some of) you to understand.

 

Did they do a bad job this offseason, in a nutshell? No.

 

Was their situation this offseason self-inflicted? Yes. Develop a few more quality players and you don't have to go desperately hunting for offense or defense or relievers when the f***ing weather changes.

 

While I agree, it does still feel like you'd have to actively try and sabotage Vlad, Kirk, Pearson and Manoah to end up with what we got. Following 2021, the outcome of these 4 players has to be like a 5-10 percentile result no? The results are SO s*****, it seems incomprehensible to believe the organization could be primarily responsible for it. Are they poisoning the players? You wouldn't even expect these results from a Dave Stewart run FO. It's really insane.

[Carlos Danger]

I suspect that's a very good decision by the Jays. Teo's savant page gets colder every year and this could be the 4th year in a row his K% increases...

 

We could have offered a higher 1 yr deal if that was the case.

[Orgfiller]

We could have offered a higher 1 yr deal if that was the case.

 

But why? Teoscar has been worse than Davis Schneider and Varsho in LF, making 4x as much.

[BigCecil]

I don't know why this is so hard for (some of) you to understand.

 

Did they do a bad job this offseason, in a nutshell? No.

 

Was their situation this offseason self-inflicted? Yes. Develop a few more quality players and you don't have to go desperately hunting for offense or defense or relievers when the f***ing weather changes.

 

- They didn't close on any material trades to improve the team gaps.

 

- They moved early before the market gelled to to hedge and gave 2 plus gloves and a reliever $28M ARO which left less to improve the O. (Green, IKF, KK)

 

- They didn't close on anyone else to improve the offence. Hamstrung by early investments in the off season and past commitments to likes of Springer/Gausman.

 

- They closed on a $13M ARO JT who projected 105 and is over performing, which FO is getting lots of credit for.

 

- Yariel was a move lots questioned but it was an investment in more arms depth, and not that expensive relatively. Early returns good.

 

- They have the 8th highest payroll in MLB.

 

- We have the oldest rotation and line up in the AL East.

 

- Development challenged.

 

Did they do a bad job this off season? Maybe not, but I don't know how anyone would give it more than a C, at best.

[Omar]

We could have offered a higher 1 yr deal if that was the case.

 

 

You want to give Teo $25 million usd for a year to watch him strike out 200+ times? No man, just no.

[Brownie19]

You want to give Teo $25 million usd for a year to watch him strike out 200+ times? No man, just no.

 

hahaha. Exactly.

[Masterbather]

This is a sabremetric friendly message board. If you don't want to look under the hood and critically discuss why the front office might be failing and instead just want to look at the results to come to your conclusion, then you might be better off on Reddit or Twitter.

 

People can discuss it all they want, I won't get in anyone's way, but at the end of the day the front office is failing to put together the kind of team required to win and stock the minor league cabinet with assets. So again, no matter what a bunch of smart asses say on this message board it doesn't change the fact that there needs to be change. It's a results-oriented business.

[Brownie19]

But why? Teoscar has been worse than Davis Schneider and Varsho in LF, making 4x as much.

 

Varsho in CF

Teo in LF

Schneider at 2nd

 

Biggio - bench

[Terminator]

People can discuss it all they want, I won't get in anyone's way, but at the end of the day the front office is failing to put together the kind of team required to win and stock the minor league cabinet with assets. So again, no matter what a bunch of smart asses say on this message board it doesn't change the fact that there needs to be change. It's a results-oriented business.

 

This is just generic baseball talk that 100% of the board agrees with

[Laika]

- They didn't close on any material trades to improve the team gaps.

 

- They moved early before the market gelled to to hedge and gave 2 plus gloves and a reliever $28M ARO which left less to improve the O. (Green, IKF, KK)

 

- They didn't close on anyone else to improve the offence. Hamstrung by early investments in the off season and past commitments to likes of Springer/Gausman.

 

- They closed on a $13M ARO JT who projected 105 and is over performing, which FO is getting lots of credit for.

 

- Yariel was a move lots questioned but it was an investment in more arms depth, and not that expensive relatively. Early returns good.

 

- They have the 8th highest payroll in MLB.

 

- We have the oldest rotation and line up in the AL East.

 

- Development challenged.

 

Did they do a bad job this off season? Maybe not, but I don't know how anyone would give it more than a C, at best.

 

You're overthinking it for sure

 

You could do basic $/WAR math and the 1.1 combined fWAR so far from Turner and IKF would carry the day and make the offseason adds looks better than what most teams did. That's like 5.5 fWAR pro-rated, for $20.5M. Will they end up being worth that much? I guess probably not, but the returns so far are very good; you can't reasonably find bang for your buck like that in free agency.

 

fWAR so far from FA bats:

 

Ohtani 1.7

Hernandez 0.8

Pederson 0.8

Gurriel 0.6

Turner 0.6

IKF 0.5

Caratini 0.4

Chapman 0.3

Hoskins 0.2

Soler 0.1

Bellinger 0.1

Hader 0.1

Candlebro 0.0

Santana 0.0

JDM 0.0

KK 0.0

Whit 0.0

Gallo 0.0

Cutch -0.1

Heyward -0.1

Anderson -0.2

Blackmon -0.3

Garver -0.3

Frazier -0.4

Renfroe -0.7

 

This is how the top 25 FA bats by AAV have performed so far

 

Early returns say the Chad Ross Atkins stared at this pile of dogshit and somehow went 2/3 and signed 2 of the best 6 options on the board. Wow!

[L54]

Or just customize it. Put your own name and #69 on the back. Those guys always look so pimp.

 

I’d put Pujols on the back of 69

[Carlos Danger]

But why? Teoscar has been worse than Davis Schneider and Varsho in LF, making 4x as much.

 

My point was they could have gotten him on a one year deal if they really wanted to. He was ok with accepting a 1 year deal.

 

The Dodgers deal is all deferred over like 8 years or something, so not $23.5 a year to the org.

 

The fact of the matter is, Teo would be the Blue Jays leader in RBIs, hits and runs and tied for the lead in HRs with his current stats.

Again, not saying Teo is/was the answer, just saying it wasn't a matter of him only wanting a long term deal or not wanting to play in TO.

[Jays24]

People can discuss it all they want, I won't get in anyone's way, but at the end of the day the front office is failing to put together the kind of team required to win and stock the minor league cabinet with assets. So again, no matter what a bunch of smart asses say on this message board it doesn't change the fact that there needs to be change. It's a results-oriented business.

 

Pretty much this. The amount of excuses you hear from some people hear, you'd think they're on the Jays payroll. If not, expect better from a big market team.

 

We are slowly seeing this team go backwards and we all know this team will look even worse once we're forced to resolve the Bo/Vlad contracts one way or another. Extremely disappointing considering where we were in 2021 when the possibilities seemed endless.