Blue Jays acquire Daulton Varsho for Moreno and Gurriel

[jaysblue]

He’s a lifetime sub .300 OPS guy and has been fairly consistent in that regard. 20+ pop doesn’t make up for it imo. To each their own

 

Yeah both pretty much provide similar value. I guess with KK there are more red flags like age, health and lack of pop. Varsho at least is still just 26, has some pop and durability isn't really that much of a concern.

 

Jays are stuck with Varsho until 2027, so makes sense to put him in CF. As well, he should only be hitting at the bottom of the order, either 7th, 8th or 9th. Let's hope we never see Varsho hit cleanup ever again.

[jaysblue]

Yup, plus KK will be 34 going into his next season. No thanks. Perfectly happy with Varsho in CF and redeploying funds to a big bat in LF.

 

I would bring KK back as a 4th outfielder but he likely lands a gig where he's guaranteed 400 ABs from someone in a platoon role. Jays really can't offer that. Definitely the Jays should spend their money on finding a big masher for LF who can provide 4-5 WAR.

[connorp]

Yeah both pretty much provide similar value. I guess with KK there are more red flags like age, health and lack of pop. Varsho at least is still just 26, has some pop and durability isn't really that much of a concern.

 

Jays are stuck with Varsho until 2027, so makes sense to put him in CF. As well, he should only be hitting at the bottom of the order, either 7th, 8th or 9th. Let's hope we never see Varsho hit cleanup ever again.

 

Yeah KK is getting older. My point is really WAR is not paid on a set scale in FA and trades, and a slick fielding CF that can hardly be a league average bat isn’t a rare thing.

 

Being a sub .300 OBP, often times these guys become bench options with a better team

 

Barsho would’ve definitely lost ABs other places.

[Carlos Danger]

Yeah KK is getting older. My point is really WAR is not paid on a set scale in FA and trades, and a slick fielding CF that can hardly be a league average bat isn’t a rare thing.

 

Being a sub .300 OBP, often times these guys become bench options with a better team

 

Barsho would’ve definitely lost ABs other places.

 

Or maybe something happened with the Jay's offensive scheme this year that took Varsho (and a bunch of others) from a decent hitter in the minors and with AZ to an 8th or 9th hole hitter. My point being, on another team, maybe he would have thrived with the bat or stayed what he had been.

[L54]

Varsho needs to be in CF. He’s an elite defender under club control for a while. Maximize his skill set and find some masher to play the other corner OF spot.

[Brownie19]

I would bring KK back as a 4th outfielder but he likely lands a gig where he's guaranteed 400 ABs from someone in a platoon role. Jays really can't offer that. Definitely the Jays should spend their money on finding a big masher for LF who can provide 4-5 WAR.

 

4-5 WAR players are 'stars'. I don't think the Jays are going to land a 'star' in LF.

[jaysblue]

4-5 WAR players are 'stars'. I don't think the Jays are going to land a 'star' in LF.

 

Bellinger if they open up their wallets. Or try to trade for one.

[jaysblue]

Some possible OF trade candidates:

 

- Juan Soto

- Luis Robert Jr.

- Christian Yelich

 

Would be nice if they could add a 4-5 player regardless of what position. I don't think you can go into 2024 relying on Vlad to be that guy. While he could be, can't be hoping he is. Need to pair Bo with another elite player.

[BigCecil]

Bellinger if they open up their wallets. Or try to trade for one.

 

You trust the Bellinger resurrection is worth what he is going to make with this weak FA class? 2022 off season FA's cost $8.5M/WAR. He was 4. With Vlad at 1B does he want to play LF on the turf? I cant see it.

 

I think the Jays are going to have to trade or get lucky on a value signing.

[Krylian]

This is why I am actively rooting against Arizona, just to hopefully avoid the constant avalanche of uninformed ignorant whining about Moreno

 

Moreno will be a Hall of Famer

[Grant77]

Moreno will be a Hall of Famer

 

I know that's in jest, but he has the tools to be that kind of player in a 99th percentile outcome.The arm and contact skills are excellent. He needs to unlock some power and frame a bit better to reach his potential.

[AMS528]

Moreno is athletic and scores well defensively on the non-framing numbers. Framing is something that can improve with age. If that's the aspect of his game that's going to take him to being a 4-5 WAR player, then he's got a real solid shot.

 

His base running was also terrible this year. His speed is fine so that shouldn't be as bad. With Moreno all it takes is just slightly more power, slightly better framing, and slightly better base running to take him to being worth that consistently. Improving just two out of three makes him super valuable.

[jaysblue]

I know that's in jest, but he has the tools to be that kind of player in a 99th percentile outcome.The arm and contact skills are excellent. He needs to unlock some power and frame a bit better to reach his potential.

 

Yeah it was shocking how earlier in the season Moreno at 23 years old was considered to have very little upside and a noodle bat. Yet Varsho at age 26 with a career wRC+ under 100 had all the upside in the world.

[jaysblue]

You trust the Bellinger resurrection is worth what he is going to make with this weak FA class? 2022 off season FA's cost $8.5M/WAR. He was 4. With Vlad at 1B does he want to play LF on the turf? I cant see it.

 

I think the Jays are going to have to trade or get lucky on a value signing.

 

Personally, I think the trade route is the best option but not sure the Jays would have enough to land a bat like Soto if they dealt just prospects. It's a shame because I thought Shapiro and Atkins from Day 1 wanted to always have an influx of highly touted young prospects in the minors. I don't really see that.

 

I'm not comfortable giving Bellinger $25-30M per season. But if the Jays can't go the trade route, Belly would be better than nothing. We'll see what happens. Soto would be ideal and since he only has one year left, Padres might be open to moving him.

 

Window is closing fast. 2024 and 2025 are probably the last good opportunities to go for a World Series.

[Terminator]

4-5 WAR players are 'stars'. I don't think the Jays are going to land a 'star' in LF.

 

Yeah these takes are hilarious.

 

"My Offseason Plan:

 

Step 1. Acquire an All-Star."

 

Gee whiz, great plan guys.

[Terminator]

You could just resign KK and fill the same hole. There’s no net win.

 

Well, save $10m I guess

 

This is pretty much true. The offense is what sucked so the natural reaction is to get a LF who can hit. But that will make the run prevention take a step back so the net benefit isn't all that great unless the LF in question is better than KK overall, not just with the bat. And that's no slam dunk to accomplish as KK put up 2.1 fWAR and 3.9 bWAR.

 

The other thing to consider is that FA is garbage right now and there will be 29 teams all going after the limited FA pool. We might need KK back more than people realize as there just isn't going to be a ton of other options. Though I do hope that we do better than that and that we also get a LF who can mash. But there is still 3B and DH to add bats as well.

[jaysblue]

Yeah these takes are hilarious.

 

"My Offseason Plan:

 

Step 1. Acquire an All-Star."

 

Gee whiz, great plan guys.

 

Jays have to replace 4 bats in their starting lineup, as well as improving over some of the other bats they have.

 

Vladdy was supposed to be one of their elite players but he isn't. Sure he has the potential to have a monster season, but heading into 2024 you can't rely on Vladdy being one of your elite stars.

 

Springer is 34 years old and looks like his best days are behind him. Kirk needs to get into better shape and hit for some more power. Varsho who was supposed to be a top offensive contributor on this team when they traded for him has a career 94 wRC+ over 1600 plate appearances. Jansen is made of glass.

 

Throwing some suggestions out there for who the Jays could target this offseason. Yeah going after an elite player I think is important because other than Bo, this team doesn't really have another elite star unless Vladdy returns to his 2021 form.

[Stangstag]

This is pretty much true. The offense is what sucked so the natural reaction is to get a LF who can hit. But that will make the run prevention take a step back so the net benefit isn't all that great unless the LF in question is better than KK overall, not just with the bat. And that's no slam dunk to accomplish as KK put up 2.1 fWAR and 3.9 bWAR.

 

The other thing to consider is that FA is garbage right now and there will be 29 teams all going after the limited FA pool. We might need KK back more than people realize as there just isn't going to be a ton of other options. Though I do hope that we do better than that and that we also get a LF who can mash. But there is still 3B and DH to add bats as well.

 

The other thing is that people are just assuming KK will repeat his 2023. I don’t think that will be the case. Can’t rely on him to stay healthy, plus he’s just getting further into his 30s.

 

So really you’re likely paying more $ for less WAR from him next season.

 

Corner OFs can usually be found on cheap short-term deals. Makes more sense to go after a LF

[Olerud363]

I know that's in jest, but he has the tools to be that kind of player in a 99th percentile outcome.The arm and contact skills are excellent. He needs to unlock some power and frame a bit better to reach his potential.

 

Kirk and Varsho's 99% percentiles are also super high. Kirk has better tools than Moreno. Tie a few 20 pound Christmas hams around Moreno's waist and see how he does...

 

Kirk's 99% outcome is he loses weight, takes a step forward with the bat, has a decade of great years at catcher and finishes off as a great DH for a hall of fame career. If Varsho could hit .265 with 35 homers (which his 2022 and minor league stats suggest he could) he is a 7 WAR player.

 

Kirk probably will never lose the weight though I guess, but even morbidly obese could have a nice 5 years ahead. Who knows.

[Terminator]

The other thing is that people are just assuming KK will repeat his 2023. I don’t think that will be the case. Can’t rely on him to stay healthy, plus he’s just getting further into his 30s.

 

So really you’re likely paying more $ for less WAR from him next season.

 

Corner OFs can usually be found on cheap short-term deals. Makes more sense to go after a LF

 

Which LF do you think will be available for about 1 year 10 mil that will be better than KK? FA is rough this year: https://www.spotrac.com/mlb/free-agents/outfield/

 

Also, are you comfortable with Varsho playing every single day with Springer as the backup CF? Or is the plan to then sign another OF who can play CF to be the 4th OF?

[BigCecil]

Yeah these takes are hilarious.

 

"My Offseason Plan:

 

Step 1. Acquire an All-Star."

 

Gee whiz, great plan guys.

 

Teo and LGJ might end up on their short list...because all there is this off season is a short list, if going the FA route.

[Omar]

Yeah these takes are hilarious.

 

"My Offseason Plan:

 

Step 1. Acquire an All-Star."

 

Gee whiz, great plan guys.

 

[Omar]

Springer is a season away from becoming your full time dh.

 

Atkins is going to get Lourdes and Teo back.

 

The Barrio Resurection Tour 2024. Book it.

[Terminator]

Teo and LGJ might end up on their short list...because all there is this off season is a short list, if going the FA route.

 

Yeah I agree. I think that's why a KK return needs to be considered.

 

And for all you "we need a bat to play LF types" don't fret. KK had a 104 wRC+ this year compared to Gurriel's 106 and Teoscar's 105.

[Grant77]

Springer is a season away from becoming your full time dh.

 

Atkins is going to get Lourdes and Teo back.

 

The Barrio Resurection Tour 2024. Book it.

 

I thought Springer played well in RF this season.

[BatFlip]

Yeah I agree. I think that's why a KK return needs to be considered.

 

And for all you "we need a bat to play LF types" don't fret. KK had a 104 wRC+ this year compared to Gurriel's 106 and Teoscar's 105.

 

 

That may be true, but next year I'm def taking the over on Teoscar's bat (age 31 year; career 117 WRC+) vs KK's (age 34, career 98 WRC+).

[connorp]

Teo makes too much sense. Could be the homer in me though

[Laika]

I don’t think it’s that black-and-white.

 

What the Jays just did with Berrios I don’t even think TB would’ve done. Controversy came when they took Snell out in the Bottom of the 6th, going through the order the 3rd time. I don’t think anyone else would’ve done that with their #2 SP. It comes only a few years after pulling a SP that piggybacked and was dealing for a journeyman who I’m not sure ever pitched again in mlb. The manager should get the axe for that inexplicable move.

 

Their big trade this year was WAR driven and celebrated here en masse. The guy didn’t even OPS .700 and was a black hole hitting 9th at the end of the season. The other guy may be a big star in a couple years.

 

The farm doesn’t have anything to be excited about, really. One pitcher and dreams after that.

 

This is a team with a decent budget.

 

I don't think it was celebrated by everybody

 

Some people hated it

 

Some people were surprised at the details but saw the justification

[BatFlip]

Teo makes too much sense. Could be the homer in me though

 

Could be the homers in him

[Omar]

I thought Springer played well in RF this season.

 

He did, that's why i said he is a season away: 2025.