Jays 2021/22 General Off-Season Discussion

[John_Havok]

I'm almost tempted to start a thread on this because there's just NO info coming out anywhere, but this should be mentioned somewhere at least...

 

 

The only factual error here is that there can be no invites to spring training right now, simply because there is no spring training without a CBA. They cannot invite anyone to spring training until there's a CBA in place.

 

Nitpicky, I know, and I'm sure they've agreed in principle that he will be invited to spring training when there is one... but details are important.

[The_DH]

the minor leagues have spring training too. He could be invited to that.

[John_Havok]

the minor leagues have spring training too. He could be invited to that.

 

True, except you don't get invited to minor league spring training when you are signed to a minor league contract. It's your job to show up

[The_DH]

You're right. Either way, an excellent signing. Love to hear how his name gets pronounced: sounds like Go Suck A toe. Yeah I said it.

[John_Havok]

You're right. Either way, an excellent signing. Love to hear how his name gets pronounced: sounds like Go Suck A toe. Yeah I said it.

 

Well, if it's not, it is now.

[Dick_Pole]

If Moreno is hyped half as much by the league as he is in this forum, maybe the Jays should consider trading him. Prospect for prospect.

[Stangstag]

You're right. Either way, an excellent signing. Love to hear how his name gets pronounced: sounds like Go Suck A toe. Yeah I said it.

 

Go-soo-kay Kah-tow would be my guess??

[Terminator]

Fangraphs 2022 Zips Projections series covered the Jays today.

 

https://blogs.fangraphs.com/2022-zips-projections-toronto-blue-jays/

 

This team is stacked.

[Terminator]

1.3 WAR from RF seems very low.

 

It does but they also list Teoscar as the top option at DH so a lot of his WAR is probably being assigned there.

[Jimcanuck]

It does but they also list Teoscar as the top option at DH so a lot of his WAR is probably being assigned there.

 

Ah, so our friend Mr. Grichuk

 

I do not expect the Jays go into the next season with Grichuk as the 4th OF. We know they've been trying to trade him.

[The Cats Ass]

If Moreno is hyped half as much by the league as he is in this forum, maybe the Jays should consider trading him. Prospect for prospect.

 

This is interesting to think about. Assuming he can't play 3B, and we roll with Jansen/Kirk at C. Do we trade him for an OFer like Riley Greene or Brennen Davis; or bolster our rotation with Shane Baz or Grayson Rodriguez. Or someone like CJ Abrams or Noelvi Marte with the idea of moving them over to 3B.

[Ehjays]

 

This guy takes a look at Nate Pearson and how he could be used this season.

Edited January 8, 2022 by Ehjays

[AdamGreenwood]

Catchers seem to have the most trouble adjusting in the majors. A lot of the big hyped prospects struggle when they come up. I vote for trading him.

 

2015 Top Prospect: Blake Swihart (18)

2016 Top Prospect: Wilson Contreras (50)

2017 Top Prospect: Carson Kelly (39)

2018 Top Prospect: Francisco Mejia (11)

2019 Top Prospect: Joey Bart (22)

[Dick_Pole]

The thing is with moving the guy to third, is that he appears to have the defensive catcher tools. Why would the team want to waste that? Rather get some value in a trade and get a prospect who can play a position of need (MIF or SP). The only issue with that is I can the Jays can have seller's remorse real quick if the two guys penciled in on the 25 man don't pan out. I'm still sore over AA's demolishing of the Jays' excellent catcher depth in a span of six weeks and rolling with Arencibia and Dickey's bitch.

[John_Havok]

The thing is with moving the guy to third, is that he appears to have the defensive catcher tools. Why would the team want to waste that?

 

Typically they wouldn't, but they already have an extremely capable defensive catcher in Jansen who has always shown offensive potential that may have actually started to manifest last season.

 

And as AG pointed out, catching prospects are a friggin' nightmare to project, they just so rarely make an instant impact due to the many demands of the position. I honestly think the Jays are hoping he pans out at 3B given their current catcher surplus right now.

[wilko]

Typically they wouldn't, but they already have an extremely capable defensive catcher in Jansen who has always shown offensive potential that may have actually started to manifest last season.

 

And as AG pointed out, catching prospects are a friggin' nightmare to project, they just so rarely make an instant impact due to the many demands of the position. I honestly think the Jays are hoping he pans out at 3B given their current catcher surplus right now.

 

Yup, hopfully he can take over 3B. That's the real need for the Jays. Catching should be covered for the next while.

[L54]

I’m skeptical that Moreno is the long term answer at 3B. Lots of his hype is tied to being an athletic defender behind the plate which makes him easy to dream on defensively.

 

He’s not a Torkelson behind the plate who you move off the position because you know he’s gonna mash right away.

 

I think he’s gotta catch in the majors to maximize his tools. I’d love to see the team use him at C and see how much flexibility they can get with him at 2B/3B and turn him into a super valuable piece who can move around the diamond.

[Jimcanuck]

I think he’s gotta catch in the majors to maximize his tools. I’d love to see the team use him at C and see how much flexibility they can get with him at 2B/3B and turn him into a super valuable piece who can move around the diamond.

 

This would maximize his value, and appears to be how the Jays are approaching it.

[RustyTrombone]

I’m skeptical that Moreno is the long term answer at 3B. Lots of his hype is tied to being an athletic defender behind the plate which makes him easy to dream on defensively.

 

He’s not a Torkelson behind the plate who you move off the position because you know he’s gonna mash right away.

 

I think he’s gotta catch in the majors to maximize his tools. I’d love to see the team use him at C and see how much flexibility they can get with him at 2B/3B and turn him into a super valuable piece who can move around the diamond.

 

Moreno is not some defense first catcher who has to stick behind the dish. If his hitting is as good as its supposed to be do you really want his knees to be shot by the time he's 30? Or to get bowled over ala Posey? Or get concussed via foul tips? His hitting is his calling card and he is 100% a guy who you consider moving off C to preserve his body. The fact he is athletic is a blessing because its not just a move to 1b that could be considered but to potentially a valuable defensive position (3b, 2b)

[L54]

Moreno is not some defense first catcher who has to stick behind the dish. If his hitting is as good as its supposed to be do you really want his knees to be shot by the time he's 30? Or to get bowled over ala Posey? Or get concussed via foul tips? His hitting is his calling card and he is 100% a guy who you consider moving off C to preserve his body. The fact he is athletic is a blessing because its not just a move to 1b that could be considered but to potentially a valuable defensive position (3b, 2b)

 

The Blue Jays won't control him when he's 30 so that doesn't really factor into my evaluation.

 

What happens if he can't handle third base? Are they not going to let him catch because he might get a concussion?

 

It's not unrealistic to be skeptical that he will both transition seamlessly to exclusively third and hit the ground running in the bigs with the bat. Going into 2022 with Gabriel Moreno as the plan for 3B is not a good idea and I imagine the team recognizes that as well.

[Brownie19]

Moreno is not some defense first catcher who has to stick behind the dish. If his hitting is as good as its supposed to be do you really want his knees to be shot by the time he's 30? Or to get bowled over ala Posey? Or get concussed via foul tips? His hitting is his calling card and he is 100% a guy who you consider moving off C to preserve his body. The fact he is athletic is a blessing because its not just a move to 1b that could be considered but to potentially a valuable defensive position (3b, 2b)

 

How much does a guy have to hit to justify this move? I mean Bryce Harper was moved from catcher to OF to fast track his development and avoid the punishment, but he's a career 142 wRC+ hitter. Are you moving Moreno off catcher if he's a 115 wRC+ hitter while playing 3rd base?

 

How much do we think someone's offensive production decreases due to playing catcher? If Moreno's a 115 wRC+ hitter at 3rd base, would he be a 105 wRC+ hitter as a catcher? These are just theoretical numbers for an example. I'm obviously hopeful that Moreno is a 125+ wRC+ hitter.

[John_Havok]

The Blue Jays won't control him when he's 30 so that doesn't really factor into my evaluation.

 

What happens if he can't handle third base? Are they not going to let him catch because he might get a concussion?

 

It's not unrealistic to be skeptical that he will both transition seamlessly to exclusively third and hit the ground running in the bigs with the bat. Going into 2022 with Gabriel Moreno as the plan for 3B is not a good idea and I imagine the team recognizes that as well.

 

I don't think the plan is for Moreno to be the 3b in 2022. I think the plan is for the Jays to try him there in the minors as often as possible to see if it makes sense. He was a SS at 16 when taken in the international draft, so it's not like he's some brick-handed butcher the Jays are just praying can catch balls hit his way so they don't have to use him at C.

[Jimcanuck]

I've only seen positive reports on Moreno at 3B. He took grounders there daily in AFL and I have little doubt he is continuing to practice at the position all off season. He knows his best path to MLB is as a 3B/C.

[L54]

I don't think the plan is for Moreno to be the 3b in 2022. I think the plan is for the Jays to try him there in the minors as often as possible to see if it makes sense. He was a SS at 16 when taken in the international draft, so it's not like he's some brick-handed butcher the Jays are just praying can catch balls hit his way so they don't have to use him at C.

 

Of course he’s not he’s always had good reviews defensively. His athleticism should allow him to play multiple positions like Varsho in Arizona.

 

My point is he doesn’t have to be a catcher or a third baseman he can play both and that would allow the Jays to keep all three catchers if they wanted to.

 

At maturity if you have a guy who can start 60 games at catcher, 60 in the infield and a handful at DH that’s the kind of player who gives you extreme roster flexibility.

[Eat My Shatkins]

Jansen - C

Kirk - C/DH

Moreno - 3B/C

 

I don't see a problem with that at all.

[THANOS]

Jansen - C

Kirk - C/DH

Moreno - 3B/C

 

I don't see a problem with that at all.

 

If no trades or signings happen that would involve those positions, it could work.

 

If someone like Bryant (3B/OF) or Freeman (DH/1B) sign though, it would cause issues.

[Jimcanuck]

Jansen - C

Kirk - C/DH

Moreno - 3B/C

 

I don't see a problem with that at all.

 

Kirk and Moreno each be the personal catcher for one of the Big Four. That will get them each 30 or so games at C. Reasonable to maintain the skills.

[L54]

If no trades or signings happen that would involve those positions, it could work.

 

If someone like Bryant (3B/OF) or Freeman (DH/1B) sign though, it would cause issues.

 

Nah guys are gonna get hurt and in this scenario you have multiple guys who can play different positions

 

Bryant - 1B/3B/OF

Biggio - 2B/3B/OF

Espinal- 2B/3B/SS/OF

Moreno - C/3B

Gurriel- OF/1B

 

Ideal

[John_Havok]

Nah guys are gonna get hurt and in this scenario you have multiple guys who can play different positions

 

Bryant - 1B/3B/OF

Biggio - 2B/3B/OF

Espinal- 2B/3B/SS/OF

Moreno - C/3B

Gurriel- OF/1B

 

Ideal

 

The one flaw with that plan is that you're trusting Bryant to be an effective defensive 3b as well as being a good bat, which ... I don't think is the case. He's clearly on the downswing at 3b, Biggio sucks at it, Moreno is an unknown factor and Espinal is the only real plus defensive option, with probably the worst bat depending on whether Biggio bounces back.

 

This team's overall defense is really not all that good around the diamond right now. CF is decent, I think Bo will at least be average or better, Jansen is plus behind the dish. Beyond those 3 guys, there's a few runs being given away over the course of the season on D.

 

Maybe over a full season it doesn't matter as much since they're still capable of outscoring their mistakes, but in short playoff series or 1 game play-ins, the D can't be a liability. I'd truly prefer they go after someone more defensively skilled with a capable bat for 3b, rather than a big bat with a suspect glove.

 

Don't get me wrong, positional flexibility is a good thing, but it's only truly effective if the players are actually avg or better defensively at the majority of positions they move around to. What good is it to move a guy around if he costs you runs at every spot?

[Spanky99]

The one flaw with that plan is that you're trusting Bryant to be an effective defensive 3b as well as being a good bat, which ... I don't think is the case. He's clearly on the downswing at 3b, Biggio sucks at it, Moreno is an unknown factor and Espinal is the only real plus defensive option, with probably the worst bat depending on whether Biggio bounces back.

 

This team's overall defense is really not all that good around the diamond right now. CF is decent, I think Bo will at least be average or better, Jansen is plus behind the dish. Beyond those 3 guys, there's a few runs being given away over the course of the season on D.

 

Maybe over a full season it doesn't matter as much since they're still capable of outscoring their mistakes, but in short playoff series or 1 game play-ins, the D can't be a liability. I'd truly prefer they go after someone more defensively skilled with a capable bat for 3b, rather than a big bat with a suspect glove.

 

Don't get me wrong, positional flexibility is a good thing, but it's only truly effective if the players are actually avg or better defensively at the majority of positions they move around to. What good is it to move a guy around if he costs you runs at every spot?

 

So basically you're suggesting a trade of Chapman for 3B.