Jays 2021/22 General Off-Season Discussion

[Grant77]

What a f***ing joke. Ortiz with 51 fWAR over Bonds at 164 fWAR. It's not like Ortiz was a saint, nobody gets shot in a club unprovoked. f*** the BBWA!

 

You could divide Barry Bonds' career into 3 segments and all of them are better than David Ortiz. That's absolutely insane.

 

We may see Dave Stieb and Carlos Delgado make it some day if this is the new standard. They are both in the same WAR range.

[Nexii]

No Hall of Fame that has f*cking Cap Anson in it should judge anyone on their character.

 

Yea Cap Anson better example than Cobb being thrown around. Majority of the bad things written about Cobb were proven to be fabricated. The modern historical view on Cobb is neutral to positive.

 

If you add a character clause you need to go back and re-evaluate everyone that's ever gotten in. So either do that or I don't agree with it.

[wamco]

Yup. Anyone else read the updates cobb bio? Georgia peach. Well worth the read.

 

I’m pumped bonds and clemens didn’t get in and hopefully won’t next year either

[Spanky99]

Hurrrr...

[BigCecil]

I fully expected this disappointing travesty.

 

There are players in the HOF who didn't get caught like Pudge, Piazza and Bagwell.

 

Papi did get caught and he gets in because he is a DH who hit well in BOS in the "clutch" and has a big smile?

 

....but much better players like Bonds and Clemens don't. Thats it for me in terms of the HOF. Its on Gold Glove level for me now.

 

 

(Don't get me wrong. I loved watching Ortiz hit, but man he was nothing compared to Bonds)

[BTS]

So basically a large amount of writers just vote for guys they like on a personal level, regardless of their on-field accomplishments.

[glory]

I wonder if Bonds would have gotten voted in, even with the PED cloud over his head, if he didn't break Hank Aaron's record. I feel like with Ortiz, brushing aside that he was popular and well liked by the media, was harmless to the "integrity" of the sport that old baseball men seem to love throwing in everyone's face. Bonds holds the single season HR record and the all time HR record, both while he was presumed to be (likely was) using PED's. Those are two of the most sacred records in the sport and he holds both. He may have gotten extra penalized for that.

 

Regardless, the reaction to this has been insanely negative, so at least the BBWAA are getting the backlash they deserve.

[Brownie19]

Yup. Anyone else read the updates cobb bio? Georgia peach. Well worth the read.

 

I’m pumped bonds and clemens didn’t get in and hopefully won’t next year either

 

[The_DH]

Man, do we all need to bring the offseason to a close, sign some infielders and pitchers, plan for spring training and get on with it.

[John_Havok]

You could divide Barry Bonds' career into 3 segments and all of them are better than David Ortiz. That's absolutely insane.

 

We may see Dave Stieb and Carlos Delgado make it some day if this is the new standard. They are both in the same WAR range.

 

There are many who think Delgado should already be there. Dude was a monster

[John_Havok]

Yea Cap Anson better example than Cobb being thrown around. Majority of the bad things written about Cobb were proven to be fabricated. The modern historical view on Cobb is neutral to positive.

 

If you add a character clause you need to go back and re-evaluate everyone that's ever gotten in. So either do that or I don't agree with it.

 

Cobb was suspended for charging the stands and assaulting a fan who was trash talking him during the game. Suspended for 10 games. There's absolutely tons of evidence that Cobb was a despicable human being both on and off the field.

[wamco]

So John havik, that’s a no on anyone actually reading the recent book or articles about him.

[wamco]

 

Predictable gif from the hive

[Boxcar]

The BBWAA are chock full of f***ing retards (I don't care) who have absolutely no place deciding on anything. This might be the biggest joke of a result, ever.

 

The all time HR leader and second all time in WAR is not going to be a hall of famer. Baseball sucks.

[Dick_Pole]

There was this black dude on MLBN he stood up for past congressional thoughts of Writers, but he hammered them here on not letting in as he said the 2 best players in recent history. Loved him doing that on air. I don't get where you're going with the if he were black in this situation? lol

 

Because if Clemens was black, or if Bonds was the only one singled out, a narrative could be spun that the racist writers are punishing a black man for being the best player ever and most efficient user of steroids. Something they might let by if he were white. Maybe they would be shamed/coerced into doing the right thing and voting him in to avoid such charges. Basically two wrongs make a right type of scenario. But alas, out of the many things wrong with the HOF voters, racial bias doesn't seem to be one of them.

[Boxcar]

Yup. Anyone else read the updates cobb bio? Georgia peach. Well worth the read.

 

I’m pumped bonds and clemens didn’t get in and hopefully won’t next year either

 

Was their last year on the ballot, brainlet

[BTS]

So how many committees are there that induct people like Harold Baines after the BBWA passes on them?

[Jimcanuck]

So how many committees are there that induct people like Harold Baines after the BBWA passes on them?

 

All players in good standing with Major League Baseball — as these four are — are eligible to appear on veterans’ committee ballots. There have been many different veterans committees iterations over the years, but at the moment there are four: Today’s Game (1988-present), Modern Baseball (1970-87), Golden Days (1960-79) and Early Baseball (pre-1950).

 

- courtesy of Google

[John_Havok]

Was their last year on the ballot, brainlet

 

True. But the Veterans Committee (Today's game section) that meets in December is considering players from 1988 - 2016, so ... they actually could get in next year if the committee doesn't have it's head up it's own ass.

[Brownie19]

It's slightly interesting that Cap Anson is inducted despite openly betting on baseball while playing and managing BEFORE that officially became illegal, but Pete Rose after betting on baseball after it became illegal.

 

YET

 

Bonds, Clemens, etc. are not inducted after (presumably) using PEDs BEFORE they officially became illegal, but David Ortiz is inducted when he was caught using PEDs after they officially became illegal.

 

That's a mind twister!

[Brownie19]

Cobb was suspended for charging the stands and assaulting a fan who was trash talking him during the game. Suspended for 10 games. There's absolutely tons of evidence that Cobb was a despicable human being both on and off the field.

 

But did he beat the fan with his own shoe?

[John_Havok]

But did he beat the fan with his own shoe?

 

Naw, just charged the stands and lit into him. The guy didn't even have hands due to some accident, and someone yelled at Cobb to stop as they guy had no hands and allegedly Cobb yelled back "I don't care if he got no feet" and kept beating him until the ump and cops pulled him off.

 

Story says that the fan implied that Cobb's mother was black. Cobb being a racist, took offense.

[wamco]

Was their last year on the ballot, brainlet

 

Soo.. who is the brainlet/retard as you like to say??

[wamco]

It's slightly interesting that Cap Anson is inducted despite openly betting on baseball while playing and managing BEFORE that officially became illegal, but Pete Rose after betting on baseball after it became illegal.

 

YET

 

Bonds, Clemens, etc. are not inducted after (presumably) using PEDs BEFORE they officially became illegal, but David Ortiz is inducted when he was caught using PEDs after they officially became illegal.

 

That's a mind twister!

 

Not really that complicated.

 

After two years of deliberations Congress passed the Anabolic Steroid Control Act of 1990, thereby criminalising possession of anabolic steroids without a valid prescription.Mar 1, 2020

 

Dec 13, 2007 — Steroids have been banned in MLB since 1991, but the league did not implement leaguewide PED testing until 2003.

 

Do you actually believe for a second bonds and clemens didn’t use? Honest question

[John_Havok]

Not really that complicated.

 

After two years of deliberations Congress passed the Anabolic Steroid Control Act of 1990, thereby criminalising possession of anabolic steroids without a valid prescription.Mar 1, 2020

 

Dec 13, 2007 — Steroids have been banned in MLB since 1991, but the league did not implement leaguewide PED testing until 2003.

 

Do you actually believe for a second bonds and clemens didn’t use? Honest question

 

I don't know for sure. Nobody does except for Bonds, Clemens, and anyone who may have witnessed their injections. Literally anything else is heresay.

 

Me, yes I think they used along with 75%+ of the league. Just like everyone in the 60's and 70s used ampethamines like they were candy, and even had a cockatail called "red juice" that was extremely common in the 70s and 80's.

 

Are amphetamines the same as steroids? No. but they still helped players perform better or they wouldn't have used them. They were also illegal.

 

What pisses me off the most about this, is that these writers have NEVER historically given 2 shits about players that used performance enhancing substances, but somehow steroids are seen as this miracle substance that turns terrible players into Hall of Fame talents and they "needed" the steroids to be good at baseball. It's such a ******** argument. Players of the past didn't "need" amphetamines to be great ballplayers, they just used them to enhance their own talents and perform at their peak for longer. Steroids did the same thing, just better.

 

The hypocrisy of the writers that don't vote for alleged steroid abusers is astounding. Unless they were in the room when the injection happened, they don't KNOW anything. But since they don't like Bonds and Clemens because they might have been *******s, they use the steroid thing as the excuse to keep them out of the Hall.

 

These are the same writers that covered baseball in the late 90's, with dwindling attendance, s***** national visibility and lower revenues due to the 1994 strike. Then the HR chases, the records being broken, huge surge in popularity and NOT ONE OF THEM said jack s*** about steroids at the time, because they were making their living off the renewed popularity of the sport. Any writer that didn't vote for alleged steroid abusers while making money off what they did, are dirt-bag hypocrites who's opinions aren't worth the paper they were printed on at the time.

 

Every single one of them should give up their vote and f*** off into the sunset.

[Brownie19]

I don't know for sure. Nobody does except for Bonds, Clemens, and anyone who may have witnessed their injections. Literally anything else is heresay.

 

Me, yes I think they used along with 75%+ of the league. Just like everyone in the 60's and 70s used ampethamines like they were candy, and even had a cockatail called "red juice" that was extremely common in the 70s and 80's.

 

Are amphetamines the same as steroids? No. but they still helped players perform better or they wouldn't have used them. They were also illegal.

 

What pisses me off the most about this, is that these writers have NEVER historically given 2 shits about players that used performance enhancing substances, but somehow steroids are seen as this miracle substance that turns terrible players into Hall of Fame talents and they "needed" the steroids to be good at baseball. It's such a ******** argument. Players of the past didn't "need" amphetamines to be great ballplayers, they just used them to enhance their own talents and perform at their peak for longer. Steroids did the same thing, just better.

 

The hypocrisy of the writers that don't vote for alleged steroid abusers is astounding. Unless they were in the room when the injection happened, they don't KNOW anything. But since they don't like Bonds and Clemens because they might have been *******s, they use the steroid thing as the excuse to keep them out of the Hall.

 

These are the same writers that covered baseball in the late 90's, with dwindling attendance, s***** national visibility and lower revenues due to the 1994 strike. Then the HR chases, the records being broken, huge surge in popularity and NOT ONE OF THEM said jack s*** about steroids at the time, because they were making their living off the renewed popularity of the sport. Any writer that didn't vote for alleged steroid abusers while making money off what they did, are dirt-bag hypocrites who's opinions aren't worth the paper they were printed on at the time.

 

Every single one of them should give up their vote and f*** off into the sunset.

 

This. Also, HGH was only banned in 2005 and really I'm not sure any of us know if they were taking HGH or roids or both. And yes, I probably ought to have been more careful and detailed in the words I used my post - but I still find it very ironic. Big Papi failed a PED test and writers still voted for him and not Bonds/Clemens? What on earth is their justification? They either claim Bonds/Clemens hurt the sport more than all other PED users (which was probably 75% of the players) or they felt Bonds and Clemens were *******s, but Papi is a nice guy - and I think that's complete ********.

[John_Havok]

This. Also, HGH was only banned in 2005 and really I'm not sure any of us know if they were taking HGH or roids or both. And yes, I probably ought to have been more careful and detailed in the words I used my post - but I still find it very ironic. Big Papi failed a PED test and writers still voted for him and not Bonds/Clemens? What on earth is their justification? They either claim Bonds/Clemens hurt the sport more than all other PED users (which was probably 75% of the players) or they felt Bonds and Clemens were *******s, but Papi is a nice guy - and I think that's complete ********.

 

And I just flatly don't care about whether they kicked puppies on the sidewalk or read to seniors every night at the home. If the people who gave them contracts to play for their teams and make them millions and millions of dollars thought they were good enough people to play for them and make them millions and millions of dollars, they're good enough to be in the Hall of Fame of the sport they dominated.

 

End of story for me.

[Dick_Pole]

Plot twist: BBWAA writers were paid off by the league to take fans' attention and complaints away from the CBA and onto this instead. Might as well just open HOF voting to long term season ticket holders or something instead of the BBWAA.

[wamco]

“ Roger had mentioned to me that he had taken H.G.H. and that it could help with recovery”- Andy Petitte.

 

Damning enough for me coming from his best friend

[John_Havok]

“ Roger had mentioned to me that he had taken H.G.H. and that it could help with recovery”- Andy Petitte.

 

Damning enough for me coming from his best friend

 

Great. So was the rest of the league and he still never failed a test. And it's still heresay. Heresay isn't evidence, it's belief.

 

HGH wasn't banned by baseball until January 2005. Clemens last played in 2003.