Jays 2021/22 General Off-Season Discussion

[The_DH]

Possibly. Espinal will likely be worse, and Biggio better, than 2021. How it shakes out TBD but I wouldn't be surprised if a healthy Biggio is the better 3B option.

 

If Biggio and McNeil are about the same then why give up assets for McNeil? You wouldn’t really want both of them, would you?

[Jimcanuck]

If Biggio and McNeil are about the same then why give up assets for McNeil? You wouldn’t really want both of them, would you?

 

Biggo and McNeil are above average. Before last season both were looked at as 3-4 WAR players. Biggio battled injuries, McNeil got babiped to some degree.

 

McNeil makes the team better and fills the 3B void.

 

Espinal is best deployed as a super utility off the bench.

[The_DH]

Biggo and McNeil are above average. Before last season both were looked at as 3-4 WAR players. Biggio battled injuries, McNeil got babiped to some degree.

 

McNeil makes the team better and fills the 3B void.

 

Espinal is best deployed as a super utility off the bench.

 

So would you play McNeil at 3b and Biggio at 2b with Espinal as sub? Personally I was hoping for at least one BAT for the infield, not just a bat. But if Morena is going to play 3b then it might make sense.

[Jimcanuck]

So would you play McNeil at 3b and Biggio at 2b with Espinal as sub? Personally I was hoping for at least one BAT for the infield, not just a bat. But if Morena is going to play 3b then it might make sense.

 

3 years of control on McNeil. Take the money saved by not signing a Bryant and invest in PITCHING.

[L54]

Pretty sure the Mets are looking at pitching in return for McNeil. Not a great fit.

[The_DH]

Pretty sure the Mets are looking at pitching in return for McNeil. Not a great fit.

 

Ross Stripling maybe in return for McNeil?

[Spanky99]

Ross Stripling maybe in return for McNeil?

 

You can comfortably add a top 10ish prospect to that, lol.

 

FTR: I don't want him, we have a younger Biggio instead.

[The_DH]

I would take him if he plays 3b and Biggio 2b. So okay, Stripling and Leo Jimenez or Kevin Smith.

[Spanky99]

Meh, I'd rather Bryant or a bigger fish in trade.

[Spanky99]

Use trade options for pitching.

 

3 years of control on McNeil. Take the money saved by not signing a Bryant and invest in PITCHING.

 

Which one is it Jim? Anyway the wind blows...

[glory]

Yeah, if the Mets are looking for pitching, then I don't think the Jays are a good fit with them in a trade. I wouldn't be against acquiring McNeil (he makes a lot of sense as a LH bat who can play 2B/3B), but he's had some clubhouse issues with the Mets apparently, and the Jays tend to avoid those types. I don't see a match there.

[The_DH]

Meh, I'd rather Bryant or a bigger fish in trade.

 

I understand your point, McNeil is an okay to have, not a must. But where do you see Moreno playing? I think he's better utilized at 3b, personally (to save his legs) and I don't want to burn him out as a catcher. If he's at 3b, then the bigger fish might be a waste.

[Jimcanuck]

Which one is it Jim? Anyway the wind blows...

 

There's no conflict here. You can acquire a pitcher making free agent dollars by trade. Remember, I don't know, Beuhrle?

[Cbert]

I understand your point, McNeil is an okay to have, not a must. But where do you see Moreno playing? I think he's better utilized at 3b, personally (to save his legs) and I don't want to burn him out as a catcher. If he's at 3b, then the bigger fish might be a waste.

 

I don’t think getting Bryant means Moreno isn’t the the 3B of the future. We also don’t know whether Jansen took a step forward at the end of last season with that hot streak or not. Moreno could be a guy that splits time between both positions and Bryant could see days at DH or the OF. I’d look at signing Bryant as meaning we’re not likely to extend Gurriel, Teoscar or both potentially.

[THANOS]

I don’t think getting Bryant means Moreno isn’t the the 3B of the future. We also don’t know whether Jansen took a step forward at the end of last season with that hot streak or not. Moreno could be a guy that splits time between both positions and Bryant could see days at DH or the OF. I’d look at signing Bryant as meaning we’re not likely to extend Gurriel, Teoscar or both potentially.

 

I would rather spend on Freeman and temporarily have Vladdy rotate between 3B, 1B & DH. Then when Moreno is ready he isn't blocked and Vladdy now moves between 1B & DH with Freeman.

 

I like that better than the hoops to jump through to make Moreno & Bryant work.

[Cbert]

I would rather spend on Freeman and temporarily have Vladdy rotate between 3B, 1B & DH. Then when Moreno is ready he isn't blocked and Vladdy now moves between 1B & DH with Freeman.

 

I like that better than the hoops to jump through to make Moreno & Bryant work.

 

I think it’s only a challenge if Moreno smashes the door down this year and can’t be ignored. If he stays down for all of this year in AAA, then we’d still have Bryant for third. If Jansen craps the bed, then Moreno may just be our catcher if the future. If Jansen is decent, maybe we start considering an extension for him and move Moreno to 3B for 2023.

 

Bryant can split time in left with Gurriel and third in 2023, and even get some DH reps. Then when Gurriel walks, Bryant is our left fielder the last few years of his contract. We could also trade an outfielder at the deadline if Moreno arrives early.

 

I’d love to have Freeman, but not sure they’d want him and Vladdy being forced to DH all the time when they seem to like the flexibility of moving other guys there for rest. Definitely won’t cry if they actually pursue this route though. Would be a great F U to everyone in the East if we added Freeman to that lineup

[THANOS]

I think it’s only a challenge if Moreno smashes the door down this year and can’t be ignored. If he stays down for all of this year in AAA, then we’d still have Bryant for third. If Jansen craps the bed, then Moreno may just be our catcher if the future. If Jansen is decent, maybe we start considering an extension for him and move Moreno to 3B for 2023.

 

Bryant can split time in left with Gurriel and third in 2023, and even get some DH reps. Then when Gurriel walks, Bryant is our left fielder the last few years of his contract. We could also trade an outfielder at the deadline if Moreno arrives early.

 

I’d love to have Freeman, but not sure they’d want him and Vladdy being forced to DH all the time when they seem to like the flexibility of moving other guys there for rest. Definitely won’t cry if they actually pursue this route though. Would be a great F U to everyone in the East if we added Freeman to that lineup

 

Yeah, reading your response, I could see how Bryant could work defensively, I just don't trust his bat to age well, with exit velos declining every year and his inconsistencies. Freeman, I trust.

 

The big issue with Freeman is the DH clogging that will occur with him and Vladdy which would screw Springer more than anyone.

 

A lot of this is hope on my part, but ideally, a thinner Vladdy can work there part-time to make a lineup like below work in the future, but you're hoping Springer wouldn't need an extended DH stint:

 

DH Springer

1B Freeman

3B Guerrero Jr

SS Bichette

RF Hernandez

LF Gurriel Jr

C Moreno

2B Biggio

CF Grichuk

[Spanky99]

I understand your point, McNeil is an okay to have, not a must. But where do you see Moreno playing? I think he's better utilized at 3b, personally (to save his legs) and I don't want to burn him out as a catcher. If he's at 3b, then the bigger fish might be a waste.

 

The Blue Jays are operating as a contending team, if Moreno pushes his way onto the roster so be it, they'll find him AB's, but they were rumoured in on Seager and just missed out on Syndergaard this team's going big, imo. Moreno doesn't stop them from that. Where do you think McNeill would play, 3B?

[Spanky99]

There's no conflict here. You can acquire a pitcher making free agent dollars by trade. Remember, I don't know, Beuhrle?

 

I was clearly busting your balls, JimmyC.

[The_DH]

The Blue Jays are operating as a contending team, if Moreno pushes his way onto the roster so be it, they'll find him AB's, but they were rumoured in on Seager and just missed out on Syndergaard this team's going big, imo. Moreno doesn't stop them from that. Where do you think McNeill would play, 3B?

 

I can see why we'd want Seager as either a 2b or 3b and generally I think he's worth it on a long deal. McNeil would be a 3b we could acquire for a relatively cheap cost. I know they were in on Syndergaard but if they got him, would they have still gone for Gausman? If only one were brought in, I'd still rather Gausman. I'd still like more pitching, and that's where I'd probably put more $$, but I don't know if I like any of the remaining free agent starters.

I'm not sure we're all in yet, I still think that will be tied to the upgrade of the stadium.

[Jimcanuck]

I can see why we'd want Seager as either a 2b or 3b and generally I think he's worth it on a long deal. McNeil would be a 3b we could acquire for a relatively cheap cost. I know they were in on Syndergaard but if they got him, would they have still gone for Gausman? If only one were brought in, I'd still rather Gausman. I'd still like more pitching, and that's where I'd probably put more $$, but I don't know if I like any of the remaining free agent starters.

I'm not sure we're all in yet, I still think that will be tied to the upgrade of the stadium.

 

Jays are good enough to reach playoffs now. And Moreno could well have a rookie of the year type season.

 

But yes, pitching is the No. 1 need.

 

Also, there is no way the Jays have tied "going all in" timing to the stadium upgrades. "Going all in" isn't in the Shatkins vocabulary anyway.

[Cbert]

Yeah, reading your response, I could see how Bryant could work defensively, I just don't trust his bat to age well, with exit velos declining every year and his inconsistencies. Freeman, I trust.

 

The big issue with Freeman is the DH clogging that will occur with him and Vladdy which would screw Springer more than anyone.

 

A lot of this is hope on my part, but ideally, a thinner Vladdy can work there part-time to make a lineup like below work in the future, but you're hoping Springer wouldn't need an extended DH stint:

 

DH Springer

1B Freeman

3B Guerrero Jr

SS Bichette

RF Hernandez

LF Gurriel Jr

C Moreno

2B Biggio

CF Grichuk

 

I’d be okay with that lineup when Springer needs a break from CF. With this lineup, are both Jansen and Kirk riding the pine, though?

 

I think I just look at this lineup and feel we could upgrade 2B and 3B for about the same money as you’d give Freeman and get better positional versatility. I think Bryant works for 3B/OF for 20-25/aav and they could use biggio and Kirk in a package for Marte. Those two together cost the same as Freeman, but lockdown two spots in the lineup for next year and can play in the OF when guys like Teoscar and Gurriel leave, and kids like Moreno and Martinez are easy for the infield.

 

If you can dump Grichuk in this scenario, then Marte’s contract is covered and you can spend the rest of the available payroll on a backend starter like Kikuchi.

 

That would be my ideal scenario, but I’m also not sure if another 9 figure deal on the team could affect our ability to keep both Vlad and Bo long term.

[John_Havok]

Our biggest need is organizational pitching depth. We can't be signing guys out of the broadcast booth to pitch in our bullpen like we did last year.

 

I think the pen is actually looking fairly decent right now. Good amount of upside, lots of arms to choose from. It's the rotation depth that's a tad thin

[THANOS]

I’d be okay with that lineup when Springer needs a break from CF. With this lineup, are both Jansen and Kirk riding the pine, though?

 

I think I just look at this lineup and feel we could upgrade 2B and 3B for about the same money as you’d give Freeman and get better positional versatility. I think Bryant works for 3B/OF for 20-25/aav and they could use biggio and Kirk in a package for Marte. Those two together cost the same as Freeman, but lockdown two spots in the lineup for next year and can play in the OF when guys like Teoscar and Gurriel leave, and kids like Moreno and Martinez are easy for the infield.

 

If you can dump Grichuk in this scenario, then Marte’s contract is covered and you can spend the rest of the available payroll on a backend starter like Kikuchi.

 

That would be my ideal scenario, but I’m also not sure if another 9 figure deal on the team could affect our ability to keep both Vlad and Bo long term.

 

I mean, that is perfect. I can't argue with any of your suggestions above.

[Cbert]

I mean, that is perfect. I can't argue with any of your suggestions above.

 

Thanks man, haha. Honestly most of the suggestions I’ve read in this thread all sound pretty solid to me. It’s nice that these are all finally real possibilities to talk about and not complete fantasy

[Spanky99]

I can see why we'd want Seager as either a 2b or 3b and generally I think he's worth it on a long deal. McNeil would be a 3b we could acquire for a relatively cheap cost. I know they were in on Syndergaard but if they got him, would they have still gone for Gausman? If only one were brought in, I'd still rather Gausman. I'd still like more pitching, and that's where I'd probably put more $$, but I don't know if I like any of the remaining free agent starters.

I'm not sure we're all in yet, I still think that will be tied to the upgrade of the stadium.

 

Ughh... of course man, and the the money towards the stadium has nothing to do with payroll. Lets just wait and see, bro. Atkins got this.

[THANOS]

Thanks man, haha. Honestly most of the suggestions I’ve read in this thread all sound pretty solid to me. It’s nice that these are all finally real possibilities to talk about and not complete fantasy

 

I totally agree lol. I just wish we were in the open FA hype period again when any of this could happen any moment, instead of perpetual state of pause, like we are in now.

 

It's definitely exciting though. A fairly cheap Bryant + Marte trade (while only giving up money, Kirk and Biggio) would be a phenomenal outcome and fills current and future gaps while maintaining lineup flexibility.

 

It's so perfect, I'll now be upset if it doesn't happen.

[John_Havok]

I mean, that is perfect. I can't argue with any of your suggestions above.

 

Sure, but ... why would Marte even be on the block? He literally just signed with the Mets, why would they want to move him after signing him and open up the same hole they just filled?

 

Also, 20-25 million for Bryant for 4-5 years (guessing that what he ends up with)... 19 million per for Marte for the nest 4 years on top of the current long term deals on the books? No thanks at their respective ages. That would all but guarantee Vlad and Bo not getting long term extensions, unless they both took ridiculous discounts. Can't see that happening.

 

I would argue signing Freeman and trading for McNeil would be better, cost less in prospect capital and actual dollars, plus still leave the door open for Vlad and Bo extensions.

[P2F]

Sure, but ... why would Marte even be on the block? He literally just signed with the Mets, why would they want to move him after signing him and open up the same hole they just filled?

 

Also, 20-25 million for Bryant for 4-5 years (guessing that what he ends up with)... 19 million per for Marte for the nest 4 years on top of the current long term deals on the books? No thanks at their respective ages. That would all but guarantee Vlad and Bo not getting long term extensions, unless they both took ridiculous discounts. Can't see that happening.

 

I would argue signing Freeman and trading for McNeil would be better, cost less in prospect capital and actual dollars, plus still leave the door open for Vlad and Bo extensions.

 

Ketel.

[The_DH]

Ughh... of course man, and the the money towards the stadium has nothing to do with payroll. Lets just wait and see, bro. Atkins got this.

 

I just imagine the Rogers crew will want to up the player budget as part of the improvement of the stadium. Create some excitement or something like that. Atkins has nothing to say with that.