Would you fire Atkins

[Carlos Danger]

There is no Atkins. It is Shapiro and Atkins. Shapiro would need to fire himself.

[Stangstag]

There is no Atkins. It is Shapiro and Atkins. Shapiro would need to fire himself.

 

Fire Atkins, give Click the reins. 2 more years of Bo and Vlad, things need to change NOW.

[Terminator]

Fire Atkins, give Click the reins. 2 more years of Bo and Vlad, things need to change NOW.

 

I like Atkins and he is mostly fine. But it's not like he's been so good that he's irreplaceable. The FA signings, the trades and the roster construction have all been very good for the most part. But the analytical on field performance was atrocious this year. The player development is just decent.

 

Click would be a very easy move to make and I would support it. His familiarity with the organization wouldn't be a huge reset since he's already been here for a year. Instead he could come in and tweak the analytics dept (keep some of the nerds), clean out the coaching staff (esp the hitting coaches) and tweak a few things with player development to try and take this organization to the next level.

 

It wouldn't be a full blown tear down of the front office but rather injecting some new blood.

[John_Havok]

When have we actually done anything right in the Shatkins era though? Its 3 postseason appearances in a row now where questionable in-game decisions have cost us.

 

2020

- the Shoemaker/Ray thing

- leaving Ryu on the mound to die in game 2

 

2022

- pulling Gausman in favor of Mayza

- Tapia into the game instead of JBJ

 

2023

- pulling Berrios early

- never giving Schneider a PH opportunity

 

I dont mean just the Jays though, even these examples in totality are a piss poor sample size overall, which leads back to my original point about remembering the bad over the good. I mean more of a playoff baseball overall, there's probably dozens of examples of early hooks that worked out fine.

 

I am admittedly far too lazy to go look for them though.

[John_Havok]

I like Atkins and he is mostly fine. But it's not like he's been so good that he's irreplaceable. The FA signings, the trades and the roster construction have all been very good for the most part. But the analytical on field performance was atrocious this year. The player development is just decent.

 

Click would be a very easy move to make and I would support it. His familiarity with the organization wouldn't be a huge reset since he's already been here for a year. Instead he could come in and clean out the coaching staff (which is a huge problem, esp the hitting coaches) and tweak a few things with player development to try and take this organization to the next level.

 

Yeah, its not like Atkins is incapable of change either, for all we know he's already got the paperwork being processed to fire the hitting coaching staff and implement a new ideology of putting balls into the seats. Its not out of the realm of possibility that a GM can't make philosophical changes between seasons.

 

Everyone has to answer to the people higher on the totem pole though so it will be interesting to see what happens in the offseason. Whether Atkins stays or goes will largely depend on how Shaprio feels about their post-mortem season meeting about what specific strategies Atkins has to fix things for next season.

 

Its important to remember for people though that the lack of runs is not THE PROBLEM. Lack of runs is the result of the real problem which is a flawed hitting philosophy overall. Misdiagnosing symptoms as problems is how you make horrible corrective decisions.

[Olerud363]

You keep bringing up the Dickey scenario. It's not exactly the same thing. Dickey had given up a run already, had thrown more pitches, and was a knuckleballer that was about to go through the order for a 3rd time.

 

Not exactly the same and weird in a different way. There were 2 outs in the 5th Jays leading 7-1, Dickey had just retired a batter to get 2 out with a runner on first.

 

Point was much that no one even remember that too much (though at the time it certainly was a point of discussion) and how different yesterday's decision would seem if Jays scored 7 runs.

[Terminator]

Its important to remember for people though that the lack of runs is not THE PROBLEM. Lack of runs is the result of the real problem which is a flawed hitting philosophy overall. Misdiagnosing symptoms as problems is how you make horrible corrective decisions.

 

Agreed and that's why I've been telling the posters who have been attacking me that the lack of runs is due to underperformance (which is due to the hitting philosophy as you point out). It's not due to "sacrificing too much offense" with trades prior to the season or not trading for Tommy Pham at the deadline.

 

You've got to correctly identify the problems before you can address them.

[TheHurl]

Can we all agree that Martinez and Hudgeons (sorry spelling) need to go? Along with anyone associated with the hitting. The guy that puts the bats out...send him packing too

[Laika]

Can we all agree that Martinez and Hudgeons (sorry spelling) need to go? Along with anyone associated with the hitting. The guy that puts the bats out...send him packing too

 

Yeah with the caveat that someone like Hunter Mense might be worth keeping and we have no way of knowing.

 

But like, why would any player listen to a 39 year old Hunter Mense when Don Mattingly, Guillermo Martinez, and Dave Hudgens are all there?

[L54]

Can we all agree that Martinez and Hudgeons (sorry spelling) need to go? Along with anyone associated with the hitting. The guy that puts the bats out...send him packing too

 

All of them. Sometimes you just need someone else to deliver the information

[L54]

Hire Dante Bichette

[Stangstag]

Agreed and that's why I've been telling the posters who have been attacking me that the lack of runs is due to underperformance (which is due to the hitting philosophy as you point out). It's not due to "sacrificing too much offense" with trades prior to the season or not trading for Tommy Pham at the deadline.

 

You've got to correctly identify the problems before you can address them.

 

Loll

[Brownie19]

Agreed and that's why I've been telling the posters who have been attacking me that the lack of runs is due to underperformance (which is due to the hitting philosophy as you point out). It's not due to "sacrificing too much offense" with trades prior to the season or not trading for Tommy Pham at the deadline.

 

You've got to correctly identify the problems before you can address them.

 

I still struggle to imagine that a team would try to implement a "team hitting philosophy". Hitting is so individual. What works for Bo won't work for Chapman. You can't go into the season and say "this year boys, we're going to spray that f***ing ball all over the place". That said, Moneyball suggested the FO staff were sitting down with players regularly, trying to show them evidence that if they adjusted their approach, they would be better. Was that just for show? or is that how it works? I mean I expect/hope they do sit down with each player and talk about things they can do to improve and show them numbers to support it - I'm just not convinced that every player gets the same message.

[Terminator]

I still struggle to imagine that a team would try to implement a "team hitting philosophy". Hitting is so individual. What works for Bo won't work for Chapman. You can't go into the season and say "this year boys, we're going to spray that f***ing ball all over the place". That said, Moneyball suggested the FO staff were sitting down with players regularly, trying to show them evidence that if they adjusted their approach, they would be better. Was that just for show? or is that how it works? I mean I expect/hope they do sit down with each player and talk about things they can do to improve and show them numbers to support it - I'm just not convinced that every player gets the same message.

 

Oh I agree I just didn't want to start a whole different argument. When I said "hitting philosophy" I mainly mean Vlad and others hitting so many flyballs to deep CF.

[leaffie]

The biggest question if you don't fire Atkins, is how long will Rogers put up with this. He has had 7 years to get this team, with this payroll to playoff success. Last years exit was either on Schneider or the analytics, and there was just as much anger then. Now the same team, has done it again this year, just in a different manner.

 

Shapiro and Atkins came here with lots of promises, none which have been fulfilled. Where is the steady stream of talent coming from the minors? What success has this management team had?

 

They were big fish in a little pond and have proven they just don't know how to build a team that competes in the ALE, and I don't mean making the playoffs because they added another seed. Lengthy discussion this morning on MLB Sirius, and one of the commentators made an excellent point. There has never been any accountability on this team for dumb plays, and he said it was all year, and he was absolutely right. What did Atkins do to help with the offense, when everyone and their dog knew it was not good enough.

 

James Click is waiting and The entire regime should be fired .

[Laika]

The biggest question if you don't fire Atkins, is how long will Rogers put up with this. He has had 7 years to get this team, with this payroll to playoff success. Last years exit was either on Schneider or the analytics, and there was just as much anger then. Now the same team, has done it again this year, just in a different manner.

 

Shapiro and Atkins came here with lots of promises, none which have been fulfilled. Where is the steady stream of talent coming from the minors? What success has this management team had?

 

They were big fish in a little pond and have proven they just don't know how to build a team that competes in the ALE, and I don't mean making the playoffs because they added another seed. Lengthy discussion this morning on MLB Sirius, and one of the commentators made an excellent point. There has never been any accountability on this team for dumb plays, and he said it was all year, and he was absolutely right. What did Atkins do to help with the offense, when everyone and their dog knew it was not good enough.

 

James Click is waiting and The entire regime should be fired .

 

Rogers probably only cares a teeny tiny bit about playoff success.

 

Yeah they want attendance to be maxed out but that also isn't a massive deal to them.

 

As long as the team isn't a complete afterthought people will continue to watch on Sportsnet and watch Sid Siexiero ramble about them and watch other baseball games on Sportsnet. That's all the corporate overlord cares about. Well, it's 95% of what they care about.

[Terminator]

Attendance was up on the year. I assume TV viewership was up or at least held steady. Rogers probably cares about the missing playoff revenue, whatever what that may be, but on the business side it seems like things are going well.

[Stangstag]

Attendance was up on the year. I assume TV viewership was up or at least held steady. Rogers probably cares about the missing playoff revenue, whatever what that may be, but on the business side it seems like things are going well.

 

Yeah Rogers must be furious they couldn’t at least take it to the ALDS and get 1-2 home games. That’s a huge chunk of revenue they were probably promised in exchange for the 200+ million payroll

[Terminator]

Yeah Rogers must be furious they couldn’t at least take it to the ALDS and get 1-2 home games. That’s a huge chunk of revenue they were probably promised in exchange for the 200+ million payroll

 

How big of a revenue stream is lost with that? Probably enough to be on the radar but not enough for them to start telling Shapiro to make changes with the GM.

[tazsub3]

It’s not only revenue at the gate that is lost , it’s tv revenue and exposure through coverage that might be worst

[Masterbather]

Maxed out payroll. Bare bones minor league organization. No playoff success. The guy who was supposed to be the core guy looks like s***.

 

They had their chance. You can blame bad luck you can blame coaches you can f***ing blame whatever you want but they had their chance. You can only make excuses for so long. This was a year that was supposed to be a world series caliber team and there's nobody by the end of the season who thought this was a world series caliber team. No major injuries or suspensions that you can blame. The team wasn't good enough. It's getting progressively worse every year since 2021, the one golden opportunity they squandered by not addressing the bullpen earlier.

 

So sick of the apologists. We don't need Atkins ruining this team any further, enough damage has been done.

[Dagagad]

I would fire Atkins because we have an above average - good front office in a division that needs a great one to be competitive over long windows.

 

The one caveat i’d have is it is too late. I would have dumped him once it became apparent that we can’t develop pitching the way elite teams do.

 

Click is right there though, although there might be more attractive jobs out there. I would be willing to talk to Bloom as well.

 

At this point i’d also be willing to just let Atkins have it for the 1/2 years before the next rebuild and then dump him.

[Daniel Labude]

I will be watching on pirated streams until they trade Vlad for soto, get a new manager, preferably buck showalter, Craig counsell or buster posey or Barry bonds.

 

Barry Bonds as manager might happen lmao

 

Rest you have no shot

[tazsub3]

I will be watching on pirated streams until they trade Vlad for soto, get a new manager, preferably buck showalter, Craig counsell or buster posey or Barry bonds.

 

well i cancelled all my rogers corporate phone when they let go AA..... was beneficial for my business, hahahha so dont know if i should be still as mad about that as i am ,lol

[Laika]

Ross Atkins just needs more support.

 

Does he have a cousin Glenn that they can hire as Assistant GM?

 

Glenn Atkins?

Maybe a Scott Atkins?

[Spanky99]

Agreed and that's why I've been telling the posters who have been attacking me that the lack of runs is due to underperformance (which is due to the hitting philosophy as you point out). It's not due to "sacrificing too much offense" with trades prior to the season or not trading for Tommy Pham at the deadline.

 

You've got to correctly identify the problems before you can address them.

 

The bold, lol... I'm dead!

[Spanky99]

Can we all agree that Martinez and Hudgeons (sorry spelling) need to go? Along with anyone associated with the hitting. The guy that puts the bats out...send him packing too

 

Yes.

[Laika]

Sick of the Atkins supporters being tarred and feathered

[John_Havok]

Sick of the Atkins supporters being tarred and feathered

 

The only Atkins that should be associated with this team over the winter is the name listed on the cover of the books given to Vlad and Kirk regarding their off season eating plans

Edited October 6, 2023 by John_Havok

[L54]

I think everybody tried their hardest and that’s all that matters. Playoffs are completely random anyway so it’s not anybody’s fault