Offseason Roster Thread (2020-2021)

[mellowgold]

If you have access to the App/online you can rewind and listen.

 

Anything worth talking about? Or just more of the same lip service?

[jerb]

[saskjayfan]

The Jays were 3rd in runs scored in the AL last year. Sure some guys may have over performed, but we also had Bo, Teo, Rowdy miss time due to injury and Vlad is a guy you can probably count on being better next year than last. Reese mcguire also played 19 of the 60 games. You would think a steady dose of Kirk as your back up would help!

 

Sign Bauer, trade for snell or trade for Darvish. If we're thinking big one of those options should be our first move. Paxton and Kluber will be throwing for teams in January. How much more likely would one of these 2 be willing to sing a pillow deal with us if we had Ryu and Bauer/Darvish/Snell at the top of the rotation.

 

This team needs pitching!

[Jays24]

The Jays were 3rd in runs scored in the AL last year. Sure some guys may have over performed, but we also had Bo, Teo, Rowdy miss time due to injury and Vlad is a guy you can probably count on being better next year than last. Reese mcguire also played 19 of the 60 games. You would think a steady dose of Kirk as your back up would help!

 

Sign Bauer, trade for snell or trade for Darvish. If we're thinking big one of those options should be our first move. Paxton and Kluber will be throwing for teams in January. How much more likely would one of these 2 be willing to sing a pillow deal with us if we had Ryu and Bauer/Darvish/Snell at the top of the rotation.

 

This team needs pitching!

 

I would say the team needs pitching AND defense. A lot of those players who helped our offense also weren't good defenders at their positions so it was a tradeoff.

 

Thats why it would be great having 2 way players in Springer, Lindor, DJL, etc. Not only do Springer and Lindor upgrade our defense at premium positions, they also allow upgrades for the positions that Bo and Grichuk would move to.

 

So in theory, we would be upgrading 4 defensive positions with 2 acquisitions. Id consider this a priority too, along with the pitching.

[max silver]

I would say the team needs pitching AND defense. A lot of those players who helped our offense also weren't good defenders at their positions so it was a tradeoff.

 

Thats why it would be great having 2 way players in Springer, Lindor, DJL, etc. Not only do Springer and Lindor upgrade our defense at premium positions, they also allow upgrades for the positions that Bo and Grichuk would move to.

 

So in theory, we would be upgrading 4 defensive positions with 2 acquisitions. Id consider this a priority too, along with the pitching.

 

I wouldn't be so sure that Grichuk is going to act as a defensive upgrade for the club by switching positions. He likely takes over as 4th outfielder from Anthony Davis who is in fact a superior defender to Grichuk. With Vladdy Jr. and Rowdy Tellez both in the fold there will be limited DH bats available for the outfielders to rotate through. Barring trade Teoscar and Gurriel are still going to be roaming the outfield most games as they offer a lot more overall value than Grichuk due to their far better offensive abilities and higher upside.

[Jimcanuck]

Not clear how well Springer will play CF going forward, he is entering the decline years. This is why I prefer Kim for CF, and disagree with those saying he won't sign here to play CF. He will sign where the money is and where he prefers to play. Atkins has said the Jays value Kim for his defensive versatility.

[max silver]

Not clear how well Springer will play CF going forward, he is entering the decline years. This is why I prefer Kim for CF, and disagree with those saying he won't sign here to play CF. He will sign where the money is and where he prefers to play. Atkins has said the Jays value Kim for his defensive versatility.

 

Kim is reportedly a good infield defender but it's unclear whether he's even remotely comfortable in the outfield. The Jays have a clear need to upgrade their infield defense and Kim would likely provide above average defense at third and be capable of providing quality cover for short in case of any Bichette injuries. Switching Kim to the outfield feels like trying to fit a square peg into a round hole.

[Jimcanuck]

Kim is reportedly a good infield defender but it's unclear whether he's even remotely comfortable in the outfield. The Jays have a clear need to upgrade their infield defense and Kim would likely provide above average defense at third and be capable of providing quality cover for short in case of any Bichette injuries. Switching Kim to the outfield feels like trying to fit a square peg into a round hole.

 

Again, I refer to Atkins comments about Kim's athleticism (60 grade speed) and defensive versatility. He would be more likely to play all over the diamond, where the needs are. Whether that is 3B, SS, 2B, or an OF position. It depends on what else happens this offseason, injuries, etc.

 

I can only think of middle IF having made a successful transition to the OF. I cannot offhand think of a single middle IF who was not able.

[Grant77]

Again, I refer to Atkins comments about Kim's athleticism (60 grade speed) and defensive versatility. He would be more likely to play all over the diamond, where the needs are. Whether that is 3B, SS, 2B, or an OF position. It depends on what else happens this offseason, injuries, etc.

 

I can only think of middle IF having made a successful transition to the OF. I cannot offhand think of a single middle IF who was not able.

 

I would think the reason for that is rather obvious. If a player can't play in the outfield then a team probably won't transition him there.

 

As to your other point about only middle infielders being able to play the outfield:

 

Catcher: Jayson Werth

Firat base: Cody Bellinger

Third base: Devon White

[max silver]

Again, I refer to Atkins comments about Kim's athleticism (60 grade speed) and defensive versatility. He would be more likely to play all over the diamond, where the needs are. Whether that is 3B, SS, 2B, or an OF position. It depends on what else happens this offseason, injuries, etc.

 

I can only think of middle IF having made a successful transition to the OF. I cannot offhand think of a single middle IF who was not able.

 

Which middle infielders have become good center fielders though? There's a distinct difference in difficulty in parking an infielder into left field and not seeing disastrous results vs moving a 25 year old shortstop to center field and expecting plus defense.

[Jimcanuck]

I would think the reason for that is rather obvious. If a player can't play in the outfield then a team probably won't transition him there.

 

As to your other point about only middle infielders being able to play the outfield:

 

Catcher: Jayson Werth

Firat base: Cody Bellinger

Third base: Devon White

 

I never said only middle IF can transition to the OF, Grant. I can see how you interpreted it that way, but not my intent.

[Scion]

If JTR is truly asking for $200m then his agent probably f***ed him out of like $30m+.

 

How do they not read the market and just take the Mets best offer? Chance they got greedy, lost the Mets, and now will have to settle for like $90M from the Phillies or something.

 

From Ken Rosenthal of the Athletic,

 

Not to spoil James McCann’s arrival in New York, but some executives and agents believe the Mets blew it by not signing J.T. Realmuto and that Realmuto blew it by not signing with the Mets.

 

Free agency ebbs and flows, and sometimes a team and player operate on different timelines, preventing them from lining up. That seems to be what happened with the Mets and Realmuto. The Mets wanted to move more quickly than Realmuto, and when it became apparent an agreement could not be reached, they struck a four-year, $40.6 million deal with McCann instead.

 

Realmuto is believed to be seeking a guarantee approximately three times that amount, and the Mets were the team most likely to offer that money. For the Mets, too, the match seemed perfect. Some rival execs view Realmuto as the best at his position by the widest margin of any player in the game.

 

That point is debatable. McCann, 30, is nine months older than Realmuto, and his track record is not as long, considering the Tigers non-tendered him after the 2018 season. But the difference in fWAR between Realmuto and McCann the past two seasons (7.4 to 3.8) is not as great as the difference between, say, free-agent outfielders George Springer and Jackie Bradley Jr. (8.4 and 2.8).

 

As McCann said himself in his introductory news conference on Wednesday, no metric captures the full value of a catcher, measuring how they communicate with pitchers and call games. But McCann is considered strong in those areas, so the dropoff from Realmuto to him in the pitcher-catcher dynamic probably is not significant, if it exists at all.

 

The bigger question, perhaps, is whether Realmuto and his agents at CAA should have pursued an agreement with the Mets more aggressively, knowing that under new owner Steve Cohen, the team loomed as the player’s most fervent suitor. By extension, losing the Mets as a bidder hurts Realmuto’s market. Once the team sought to go at a quicker pace, his best play might have been to follow suit.

 

Realmuto, though, is a singular talent who figures to get his money, even if his market at the moment is not clear. The Angels, Astros, Blue Jays and Nationals are among the many clubs that would benefit from his addition. If he somehow ends up with a deal that is less than he and the rest of the industry expected, then the second-guessing can begin.

[Jimcanuck]

Which middle infielders have become good center fielders though? There's a distinct difference in difficulty in parking an infielder into left field and not seeing disastrous results vs moving a 25 year old shortstop to center field and expecting plus defense.

 

Look at Ketel Marte (quite similar to Kim in stature and athleticism) in 2019, provided more defensive value in CF then he did at 2B/SS. Although those numbers cratered in 2020 along with the rest of his game.

 

You play your players to best position the team to win. I wouldn't discount the Jays signing Kim and seeing him play significant innings as the best available option for CF, depending on how the rest of the offseason goes.

[max silver]

Look at Ketel Marte (quite similar to Kim in stature and athleticism) in 2019, provided more defensive value in CF then he did at 2B/SS. Although those numbers cratered in 2020 along with the rest of his game.

 

You play your players to best position the team to win. I wouldn't discount the Jays signing Kim and seeing him play significant innings as the best available option for CF, depending on how the rest of the offseason goes.

 

The only way I see Kim spending a significant amount of time in the outfield with the Jays would be if they acquired both Kim and another top infield target. But if the team signs somebody like LeMahieu or Turner, or trades for a player like Bryant, Lindor etc. I doubt Kim would be of interest anymore at that point.

[Jimcanuck]

The only way I see Kim spending a significant amount of time in the outfield with the Jays would be if they acquired both Kim and another top infield target. But if the team signs somebody like LeMahieu or Turner, or trades for a player like Bryant, Lindor etc. I doubt Kim would be of interest anymore at that point.

 

Right and in my original post from a few weeks ago had Kim in CF and Lindor at SS.

 

The Jays have stated they value Kim's ability to play all over the diamond (this was on Sportsnet). Getting Lindor does not close the door on Kim.

[Jimcanuck]

From a few days ago, Sportsnet:

 

"The most intriguing option for the Blue Jays is Kim, whose age, talent and versatility make him a rare commodity on the open market. Blue Jays scouts have been watching Kim for some time in anticipation of his posting and have continued to do due diligence on him this winter. They believe Kim’s athleticism could allow him to play all over the diamond, an obvious benefit for an organization that values versatility."

 

How does this look, defensively and offensively? And plenty of versatility.

 

Bichette - 3B (SS)

Biggio - 2B (3B/OF)

Lindor - SS

Vlad - 1B (DH/3B)

Hernandez - RF

Tellez - DH (1B)

Grichuk - LF (CF)

Jansen / Kirk - C

Kim - CF (SS/2B)

 

~$40M for Lindor and Kim, leaves some room to add pitching

 

....

[Deadpool]

....

 

"could" is doing a lot of heavy lifting there.

 

I'm not okay with grabbing someone who's never played CF and saying "there, now our CF problems are solved!"

[Spanky99]

....

 

I'm with you on this JimmyC... as long as he gets plenty of reps during ST. I'd still prefer Springer mind you.

[Deadpool]

I'm with you on this JimmyC... as long as he gets plenty of reps during ST. I'd still prefer Springer mind you.

 

My CF preferences are as follows: Springer >>>> What we already have > Kim > Bradley.

[Spanky99]

My CF preferences are as follows: Springer >>>> What we already have > Kim > Bradley.

 

Grichuk over Kim and Bradley? Damn... I want Springer, JT messed that up me thinks!

[max silver]

Right and in my original post from a few weeks ago had Kim in CF and Lindor at SS.

 

The Jays have stated they value Kim's ability to play all over the diamond (this was on Sportsnet). Getting Lindor does not close the door on Kim.

 

One possible wildcard that blows up any preseason scenario is the potential 2021 arrival of Austin Martin. As a polished college bat I could see the Jays being very aggressive with his movement through the system. The club showed that they are willing to push certain prospects super quickly as Kirk made the jump to MLB without having seen a single at bat above high A ball. I really have no idea where Martin ends up on the diamond though, if the club strikes out on attaining Springer I suspect center field would be his for the taking. If they fail to acquire an impact infield player Martin could end up at third base. It sounds like he has the athleticism to play all over the diamond, but reports of his arm strength haven't been overly positive.

[The Iceman]

One possible wildcard that blows up any preseason scenario is the potential 2021 arrival of Austin Martin. As a polished college bat I could see the Jays being very aggressive with his movement through the system. The club showed that they are willing to push certain prospects super quickly as Kirk made the jump to MLB without having seen a single at bat above high A ball. I really have no idea where Martin ends up on the diamond though, if the club strikes out on attaining Springer I suspect center field would be his for the taking. If they fail to acquire an impact infield player Martin could end up at third base. It sounds like he has the athleticism to play all over the diamond, but reports of his arm strength haven't been overly positive.

 

I like your idea of fast tracking Martin through the system. Would love to see him called up after the delay in service time date. Lots of places for him to play. 3rd, 2nd, a little CF.

[Deadpool]

Grichuk over Kim and Bradley? Damn... I want Springer, JT messed that up me thinks!

 

I want Kim, but as a 3B/Utility guy. And Bradley just doesn't move the needle much for me, I think he'll get more money than he's worth. I mean, if you could get him for 3/30 I'd probably be interested, but I doubt that's his number. He's just the kinda hitter that I think benefits from Fenway a bit too much for me to want to pay real money for him. Undoubtedly a good fielder, but how will that age?

[Spanky99]

One possible wildcard that blows up any preseason scenario is the potential 2021 arrival of Austin Martin. As a polished college bat I could see the Jays being very aggressive with his movement through the system. The club showed that they are willing to push certain prospects super quickly as Kirk made the jump to MLB without having seen a single at bat above high A ball. I really have no idea where Martin ends up on the diamond though, if the club strikes out on attaining Springer I suspect center field would be his for the taking. If they fail to acquire an impact infield player Martin could end up at third base. It sounds like he has the athleticism to play all over the diamond, but reports of his arm strength haven't been overly positive.

 

Who's to say Kirk makes the club this year out of ST? Also there's no way Martin plays this year... most of these prospects that made the jump was simply because of the Covid and extended rosters.

[Ryu In My House]

I want Kim, but as a 3B/Utility guy. And Bradley just doesn't move the needle much for me

 

Steamer has Grichuk (1.7) worth more WAR than JBJ (1.4) in 2021. I agree with your hot take.

[Spanky99]

I want Kim, but as a 3B/Utility guy. And Bradley just doesn't move the needle much for me, I think he'll get more money than he's worth. I mean, if you could get him for 3/30 I'd probably be interested, but I doubt that's his number. He's just the kinda hitter that I think benefits from Fenway a bit too much for me to want to pay real money for him. Undoubtedly a good fielder, but how will that age?

 

You could still use Kim as a super utility, though? JBJ wouldn't get that AAV in my opinion, more likely 8M. Plenty of AB's to go around and that's without counting injuries. His D is elite, and should age quite well.

[Spanky99]

Steamer has Grichuk (1.7) worth more WAR than JBJ (1.4) in 2021. I agree with your hot take.

 

If you miss out on Springer, nothing wrong with both of them. You're also discounting Kim.

[max silver]

Who's to say Kirk makes the club this year out of ST? Also there's no way Martin plays this year... most of these prospects that made the jump was simply because of the Covid and extended rosters.

 

If Kirk doesn't make the club out of spring training it won't be because the club doesn't think he can contribute. I could see them starting with McGuire to see if they can salvage any value out of him for a possible trade after a completely disastrous 2020, both off the field and on the field. Kirk was added to the major league roster in the thick of a playoff race into the most important position on the diamond. He earned his way onto the club through his performance in the alternate training site, it wasn't a gift due to covid. Besides that fact covid is still likely going to be an ongoing concern for baseball in 2021, so there very well may be expanded rosters again and taxi squads implemented as was the case in 2020.

 

I wouldn't be so sure about there being no possibility of Martin contributing in 2021. This is a high level prospect who is in the Bo Bichette realm talent wise, who coincidentally made his major league debut at age 22, right where Martin will be age wise in 2021. I think a good comparison is Alex Bregman, who played all of 146 games in the minors before making his big league debut. Martin spent his 2020 season at the alternate training site instead of getting his feet wet in the minors as Bregman did in 2015. Bregman spent about half of 2016 in the minors before debuting in the majors later that season. All that Martin is likely missing is real game competition as a pro, if he shows that the bat is ready he's the type of talent you make room for.

[Jimcanuck]

One possible wildcard that blows up any preseason scenario is the potential 2021 arrival of Austin Martin. As a polished college bat I could see the Jays being very aggressive with his movement through the system. The club showed that they are willing to push certain prospects super quickly as Kirk made the jump to MLB without having seen a single at bat above high A ball. I really have no idea where Martin ends up on the diamond though, if the club strikes out on attaining Springer I suspect center field would be his for the taking. If they fail to acquire an impact infield player Martin could end up at third base. It sounds like he has the athleticism to play all over the diamond, but reports of his arm strength haven't been overly positive.

 

I doubt we see Martin with the big club in 2021. Only way that happens is injuries, IMO. Like the injuries that got Soto to the big leagues before he was 20.

 

Your post explains why versatility matters. Groshans could demolish A+, AA, and more than hold his own in AAA in 2021. If you bring in Kim to play all over the diamond, yes including CF, and have versatility with your other players such as Biggio, you can fit Groshans (or whoever) onto the club at the expense of the 26th man whoever that is.

[Spanky99]

If Kirk doesn't make the club out of spring training it won't be because the club doesn't think he can contribute. I could see them starting with McGuire to see if they can salvage any value out of him for a possible trade after a completely disastrous 2020, both off the field and on the field. Kirk was added to the major league roster in the thick of a playoff race into the most important position on the diamond. He earned his way onto the club through his performance in the alternate training site, it wasn't a gift due to covid. Besides that fact covid is still likely going to be an ongoing concern for baseball in 2021, so there very well may be expanded rosters again and taxi squads implemented as was the case in 2020.

 

I wouldn't be so sure about there being no possibility of Martin contributing in 2021. This is a high level prospect who is in the Bo Bichette realm talent wise, who coincidentally made his major league debut at age 22, right where Martin will be age wise in 2021. I think a good comparison is Alex Bregman, who played all of 146 games in the minors before making his big league debut. Martin spent his 2020 season at the alternate training site instead of getting his feet wet in the minors as Bregman did in 2015. Bregman spent about half of 2016 in the minors before debuting in the majors later that season. All that Martin is likely missing is real game competition as a pro, if he shows that the bat is ready he's the type of talent you make room for.

 

I understand that about Kirk, pretty much my point on him, plus they might want him to get seasoned a bit more in Buffalo. Not to mention your other points on the kid. Martin hasn't played a game yet in proball, colour me shocked if that ever happens aside from maybe a September cup of coffee, I'm aware that the Covid expanded rosters might happen, we'll see. I just find it highly unlikely and the same goes for Groshans. Lets see how the off-season plays out. You mentioned preseason and Martin on the squad and my head kind of exploded, I find it extremely unlikely. Meh... maybe I read it wrong. Teams still want to play with players clocks/service time, etc... so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯