Jays Acquiring Andres Gimenez

[Spanky99]

The further Bo is from this franchise, the better. If this is the case I'll change my mind on this Giminez acquisition, but right now I hate it.

 

Why is that?

[Pendleton]

I guess there's a glass half full or half empty way of looking at this trade. If you think Gimenez is a noodle bat, it's going to be underwhelming at best. But that's overlooking the ceiling he's shown (not potential, actual performance). At age 23, just two seasons ago, he produced a season as great as the very best ever by a Jays middle infielder. Right up there with Alomar's best seasons and better than Bo's very best year. He doesn't need to get all the way back to that level in order to produce surplus value. It's a risk- reward play that could actually turn out marvelously.

[ValiantJaysFan]

Why is that?

 

Bo is a cancer, I can't stand the guy.

[AMS528]

I guess there's a glass half full or half empty way of looking at this trade. If you think Gimenez is a noodle bat, it's going to be underwhelming at best. But that's overlooking the ceiling he's shown (not potential, actual performance). At age 23, just two seasons ago, he produced a season as great as the very best ever by a Jays middle infielder. Right up there with Alomar's best seasons and better than Bo's very best year. He doesn't need to get all the way back to that level in order to produce surplus value. It's a risk- reward play that could actually turn out marvelously.

 

The thing is it really depends on their plans for building this roster. It just doesn't make sense if we're not going to be able to sign or acquire some big bats to compensate for the possibility that Gimenez doesn't hit all (a high probability). In that case we've acquired what is apparently a 20 million dollar cap hit for a team that's already expensive this year and won't compete.

 

It makes sense in two ways, maybe three. If you're planning to blow it up and trade Bo and Vlad, move Gimenez to short. Then you've got a solid player there for the future at a key position as you accumulate prospects.

 

The other is that we go that second CBT apron and make some actual signings like Bregman or Teo (or god forbid Santander) and maybe another trade to pick up a bat. Maybe chase Luis Robert. We can try to compete (although it is a team that is lacking even with those adds).

 

The third option is that we're planning to move on from Bo but not from Vlad. We use Bo to make a trade for MLB talent or about to enter MLB talent at positions we're lacking in and we make a signing or two. That one's interesting but I think unlikely. We don't add to much salary in this instance but maybe we build a better constructed roster.

[ValiantJaysFan]

The thing is it really depends on their plans for building this roster. It just doesn't make sense if we're not going to be able to sign or acquire some big bats to compensate for the possibility that Gimenez doesn't hit all (a high probability). In that case we've acquired what is apparently a 20 million dollar cap hit for a team that's already expensive this year and won't compete.

 

It makes sense in two ways, maybe three. If you're planning to blow it up and trade Bo and Vlad, move Gimenez to short. Then you've got a solid player there for the future at a key position as you accumulate prospects.

 

The other is that we go that second CBT apron and make some actual signings like Bregman or Teo (or god forbid Santander) and maybe another trade to pick up a bat. Maybe chase Luis Robert. We can try to compete (although it is a team that is lacking even with those adds).

 

The third option is that we're planning to move on from Bo but not from Vlad. We use Bo to make a trade for MLB talent or about to enter MLB talent at positions we're lacking in and we make a signing or two. That one's interesting but I think unlikely. We don't add to much salary in this instance but maybe we build a better constructed roster.

 

I love Luis Robert but the guy can't stay on the field, he's constantly injured. I can't imagine a full season of him on astro turf. If not for that I'd love if he were a Jay.

[Nexii]

I like the move only because they have to go for high ceiling/variance guys to have any shot at the post season. Steady average players won't get them there

[Terminator]

Does team building really matter to the degree this board claims it does?

 

Is a 3 WAR player with a defensive profile going to be worse for us than a 2 WAR player with an offensive profile?

 

Plus, Steamer's 3 WAR projection includes him hitting 103 wRC+ but has his defensive value at 4.7. I'm not sure how much Steamer knows about defense but that number has been over 15 the past two years. He's probably over a 4 WAR player if he hits his projections with the stick and his defense holds.

[Barrelsandbombs]

Ben Clemens of Fangraphs thinks this trade is a massive win for the Jays.

 

[Spanky99]

Bo is a cancer, I can't stand the guy.

 

[The Cats Ass]

We'd never find out, but curious what the Jays internal valuation is on him. BR has his WAR the past 3 years at 7.4, 5.3, and 4. Which puts him as the 4th most valuable 2B last year; that 7.4 was the 4th highest for a batter that year. 2022 he placed 6th in MVP voting. That's the type of ceiling we're dealing with here. And he's just about to enter his theoretical prime years.

[Terminator]

Ben Clemens of Fangraphs thinks this trade is a massive win for the Jays.

 

 

Wow! Ben Clemens LOVES this trade for us.

[jaysblue]

[Brownie19]

I love Luis Robert but the guy can't stay on the field, he's constantly injured. I can't imagine a full season of him on astro turf. If not for that I'd love if he were a Jay.

 

Astroturf? It's not 1987 sir. Turf as evolved a bit.

[G-Snarls]

 

Bo's standoffish personality bothers people less when he's mashing doubles and home runs all the time

[burlingtonbandit]

Does team building really matter to the degree this board claims it does?

 

Is a 3 WAR player with a defensive profile going to be worse for us than a 2 WAR player with an offensive profile?

 

Plus, Steamer's 3 WAR projection includes him hitting 103 wRC+ but has his defensive value at 4.7. I'm not sure how much Steamer knows about defense but that number has been over 15 the past two years. He's probably over a 4 WAR player if he hits his projections with the stick and his defense holds.

 

WAR is WAR but I think everyone can agree that if they went into the season with the lineup they have right now it would be pretty bad. Varsho likely isn't ready by opening day and then on Kirk off days you have Heineman so from 5-9 you've got a black hole.

 

Also we've seen the last 2 years how frustrating a team is that can't score runs.

[Brownie19]

WAR is WAR but I think everyone can agree that if they went into the season with the lineup they have right now it would be pretty bad. Varsho likely isn't ready by opening day and then on Kirk off days you have Heineman so from 5-9 you've got a black hole.

 

Also we've seen the last 2 years how frustrating a team is that can't score runs.

 

I mean - I just watched the Royals and Tigers make the playoffs on the backs of like 2 quality hitters and a bunch of useless noodle bats. It "can" happen. I mean it won't in Toronto, but we have seen it recently.

[burlingtonbandit]

I mean - I just watched the Royals and Tigers make the playoffs on the backs of like 2 quality hitters and a bunch of useless noodle bats. It "can" happen. I mean it won't in Toronto, but we have seen it recently.

 

They also had elite pitching which it doesn't look like the Jays will have coming into the season. Also the AL East is a dogfight all year.

[Brownie19]

They also had elite pitching which it doesn't look like the Jays will have coming into the season. Also the AL East is a dogfight all year.

 

I know (although I don't think the pitching was really "elite"), but go look at the f***ing lineup the Royals were running out there. They pulled Yuli Gurriel out of retirement and put him directly into the starting lineup. It was bizarre and baffling how they could win so much with 1 superstar, 1 quality catcher, 2 elite starters and Erceg, who they got at the deadline for nothing...And their offense was better than Detroit's!

[burlingtonbandit]

I know (although I don't think the pitching was really "elite"), but go look at the f***ing lineup the Royals were running out there. They pulled Yuli Gurriel out of retirement and put him directly into the starting lineup. It was bizarre and baffling how they could win so much with 1 superstar, 1 quality catcher, 2 elite starters and Erceg, who they got at the deadline for nothing...And their offense was better than Detroit's!

 

Yeah it was pretty bad. Witt covered up a lot of holes.

 

I mean the Jays could have a ton of things go right and win 90 games but I'm not banking on it. But who knows maybe Vladdy puts up an MVP season, Bo is healthy, Springer turns back the clock, Kirk puts up an all star year and the pitching stays healthy/productive!

[Brownie19]

Yeah it was pretty bad. Witt covered up a lot of holes.

 

I mean the Jays could have a ton of things go right and win 90 games but I'm not banking on it. But who knows maybe Vladdy puts up an MVP season, Bo is healthy, Springer turns back the clock, Kirk puts up an all star year and the pitching stays healthy/productive!

 

Only bad things happen to the Jays. Don't put any money on it.

[Stangstag]

I mean - I just watched the Royals and Tigers make the playoffs on the backs of like 2 quality hitters and a bunch of useless noodle bats. It "can" happen. I mean it won't in Toronto, but we have seen it recently.

 

Seriously feels like the team is cursed at times. This stretch from 2020-2024 has been nut shot after nut shot.

 

Im pretty certain im sterile.

[HomeRunHomer]

I've seen this movie before.

[Key22]

The thing is it really depends on their plans for building this roster. It just doesn't make sense if we're not going to be able to sign or acquire some big bats to compensate for the possibility that Gimenez doesn't hit all (a high probability). In that case we've acquired what is apparently a 20 million dollar cap hit for a team that's already expensive this year and won't compete.

 

It makes sense in two ways, maybe three. If you're planning to blow it up and trade Bo and Vlad, move Gimenez to short. Then you've got a solid player there for the future at a key position as you accumulate prospects.

 

The other is that we go that second CBT apron and make some actual signings like Bregman or Teo (or god forbid Santander) and maybe another trade to pick up a bat. Maybe chase Luis Robert. We can try to compete (although it is a team that is lacking even with those adds).

 

The third option is that we're planning to move on from Bo but not from Vlad. We use Bo to make a trade for MLB talent or about to enter MLB talent at positions we're lacking in and we make a signing or two. That one's interesting but I think unlikely. We don't add to much salary in this instance but maybe we build a better constructed roster.

 

I don't think the Cap is that big of a deal since the Jays have been hopeless at drafting and player development for like 10 years now. They can spend their way to contention. If they sign Burnes and one of Teo/Santander and get a bounce back from Manoah and Bo - sign a closer and a decent backup catcher they can probably make a run. Bo comes off the books next year and Giminez moves to Short Stop. Maybe Orelvis Martinez becomes something and he takes 1B when Vlad leaves for $600million to join Soto in NY.

 

Buck Martinez said the Jays are very high on Wagner at second - if true then maybe Bo is shipped out early. If he proves he is healthy in Spring Training - maybe someone will give us a good package.

[Joltin Joe]

Can we sign Santander or Bergman. Trade Vlad for big haul of youth?

 

Doubt Vlad signs here

[Olerud363]

They also had elite pitching which it doesn't look like the Jays will have coming into the season. Also the AL East is a dogfight all year.

 

 

But the argument is whether adding Giminez's 4 WAR will really 'help' as compared to adding a big homerun hitter. And the answer should be WAR is WAR, and the only way Giminez wouldn't help (assuming he hits 4 WAR) is if Giminez's WAR isn't real because of issues with how baserunning and defense are measured.

 

Let's say Jays were project to score 680 runs and give up 700. Say Giminez saved 20 runs but loses 5 on offense... then Jays now projected for 675 scored and 680 given up. Giminez helps if fangraphs WAR is true, and if Giminez can continue to perform at a 4 WAR level (heavy on defense and baserunning).

[Olerud363]

Only bad things happen to the Jays. Don't put any money on it.

 

 

I assume you are perhaps sick of the board nonsense (of which I have been responsible for my share) and are now playing grumpy old man.... but...

 

1993 - randomly got best years from Molitor, Olerud, Alomar and a 4 month stretch of prime Tony Fernandez to win World Series

1998 - a bunch of young players gave an unexpected run at wild card

2003 - MVP and Cy Young seasons from Delgado/Wells/Halladay led to fun season

2010 - Bautista starts new era out of no where

2015 - Greatest two month run in franchise history

2020 - Trudeau closes border and locks up BJMB members then BJMB starts censorship campaign against it's own, but little playoff run gives moments of Joy

2021 - 2 MVP like seasons and a Cy Young... kind of similar to 2003 in a way.

2022 - Decent team wins WC1 and get some home playoff games which are kind of destructive to mental health but OK ride to get to that point....

 

So occasionally good things happen, some random and unexpected, but problem is rivals have too much money and/or Brains

 

Random good things could happen next year too.... or maybe not.

[wilko]

I assume you are perhaps sick of the board nonsense (of which I have been responsible for my share) and are now playing grumpy old man.... but...

 

1993 - randomly got best years from Molitor, Olerud, Alomar and a 4 month stretch of prime Tony Fernandez to win World Series

1998 - a bunch of young players gave an unexpected run at wild card

2003 - MVP and Cy Young seasons from Delgado/Wells/Halladay led to fun season

2010 - Bautista starts new era out of no where

2015 - Greatest two month run in franchise history

2020 - Trudeau closes border and locks up BJMB members then BJMB starts censorship campaign against it's own, but little playoff run gives moments of Joy

2021 - 2 MVP like seasons and a Cy Young... kind of similar to 2003 in a way.

2022 - Decent team wins WC1 and get some home playoff games which are kind of destructive to mental health but OK ride to get to that point....

 

So occasionally good things happen, some random and unexpected, but problem is rivals have too much money and/or Brains

 

Random good things could happen next year too.... or maybe not.

 

[Masterbather]

2020 - Trudeau closes border and locks up BJMB members then BJMB starts censorship campaign against it's own, but little playoff run gives moments of Joy

 

LOL, what? I obviously missed this, sounds completely hilarious though.

[Olerud363]

 

Emotionally it seems that a team that has run it's course, has run it's course, and this team like the 94 Jays, or the 2017 Jays has run it's course and the next good Jays team will be a different team....

 

but you never know. Vlad/Giminez/Bo/Varsho/Kirk/Springer all have a 3 year peak of at least 4 WAR... so their 'ceiling' is still high I guess.

[John_Havok]

Can we sign Santander or Bergman. Trade Vlad for big haul of youth?

 

Doubt Vlad signs here

 

There next to 0 chance at a pre-free agency extension that's for sure. He'd be an idiot not to go to FA and let teams compete against each other rather than just letting 1 team do it. Even though he's not in Soto's league thus far in his career, if he has a full year like his second half he's gonna get a pile. He's already turned down whatever extension offers the Jays have offered in the past, which I have no idea what dollar value they were in, but... if i had to guess they were in the 200 million range probably pretty early on. Pure speculation on the number of course, but we know they've been talking every offseason since at least 2021.

 

Vlad's just betting on himself like Soto did. It just remains to be seen how it works out for him.