Blue Jays acquire Daulton Varsho for Moreno and Gurriel

[Terminator]

Basically banking that he's cooked lol.

 

It's possible. He's only hit 1 WAR in 2 of the last 7 seasons.

[Stangstag]

You guys should be getting way better odds, Jaysblue is getting a 30 million dollar a year player and all he has to do is put up more WAR than Kikuchi who got 30 million total for 3 years. He even gets a fallback with the "or" better than Berrios. Should have at least made it so he's better than both.

 

I guess it's completely possible that Rodon's arm explodes in ST again though. Though he could STILL win if Kooch throws up another negative season lol.

 

He pulled the same s*** with me and the Seattle/Texas thing, and I was actually very close to winning lol

[jaysblue]

Lets go with either one of them. Doesn't matter who.

 

Since your profile picture is Kikuchi, let's do Rodon vs. Kikuchi. If that works for you, hand shake!

[jaysblue]

I'm in.

 

Kikuchi or Berrios?

[Spanky99]

Kikuchi or Berrios?

 

Jose... Jose... Jose... lol

[jaysblue]

Jose... Jose... Jose... lol

 

Ok hand shake!

[BlueJays]

Hilarious. They should had kept Moreno and traded Kirk instead to a bag of chips instead of doing this trade lol

[Olerud363]

Hilarious. They should had kept Moreno and traded Kirk instead to a bag of chips instead of doing this trade lol

 

Moreno is on a playoff burner, but so was Pat Borders at one time.

 

If Kirk was 45 pounds lighter and looked like Moreno this wouldn't even be a conversation. Kirk just got nominated for a gold glove, and I saw one of the defensive rating systems had him as the top catcher and top 5 AL defensive player overall.

 

Not saying defense nerd ratings are everything (especially as they disagree, though all rate Kirk good), but Kirk and Moreno were the same guy in 2023, Kirk was much better in 2022...

 

I guess people think 2 guys, who are the same, but one extremely obese, that one will become a first ballot hall of famer, and the other a 450 pound novelty in the Mexican league.

 

Kirk actually has better tools too (k-rate indicates better hit tool).

 

Whole conversation is based on obesity, and nothing else, but the Kirk haters could be right in the end because Obesity can cause failure. My cousin was a pretty good Marathon runner, 3 hours 25 minutes, which is an relatively good time for a 30 year old female, but then she got extremely obese and could not walk a half marathon in that time. So I've seen first hand what Obesity can do.

[deanmike]

Moreno is on a playoff burner, but so was Pat Borders at one time.

 

If Kirk was 45 pounds lighter and looked like Moreno this wouldn't even be a conversation. Kirk just got nominated for a gold glove, and I saw one of the defensive rating systems had him as the top catcher and top 5 AL defensive player overall.

 

Not saying defense nerd ratings are everything (especially as they disagree, though all rate Kirk good), but Kirk and Moreno were the same guy in 2023, Kirk was much better in 2022...

 

I guess people think 2 guys, who are the same, but one extremely obese, that one will become a first ballot hall of famer, and the other a 450 pound novelty in the Mexican league.

 

Kirk actually has better tools too (k-rate indicates better hit tool).

 

Whole conversation is based on obesity, and nothing else, but the Kirk haters could be right in the end because Obesity can cause failure. My cousin was a pretty good Marathon runner, 3 hours 25 minutes, which is an relatively good time for a 30 year old female, but then she got extremely obese and could not walk a half marathon in that time. So I've seen first hand what Obesity can do.

 

I don't think Kirk non-believers have ever denied that his obesity is the reason why they don't believe in him. Valuable catchers don't grow on trees. Moreno will be one for a very long time, while Kirk is a soon-to-be full time DH once his obesity ends his catching days earlier than most.

[Olerud363]

I don't think Kirk non-believers have ever denied that his obesity is the reason why they don't believe in him. Valuable catchers don't grow on trees. Moreno will be one for a very long time, while Kirk is a soon-to-be full time DH once his obesity ends his catching days earlier than most.

 

Yeah. Just seems like a lot of posters are portraying Moreno as a once in lifetime athlete with 70 catcher tools, and not mentioning Kirk has the same tools with a bit lesser arm tool but a better hit 'tool'.

 

In terms of tools Kirk is a 70 tool guy trapped in a 290 pound body. Fat belly gets in the way of throws and swings increasing ground ball rate and reducing baserunners destroyed, still can put up 2 WAR in 100 games and be nominated for gold glove despite the fact he has the body of Danny Devito.

 

I guess we can all hope the Jays high (ie low) performance team recognizes that fitness cost them 8 WAR or so between Kirk, Manoah and Guerrero.

 

I guess some posters would prefer that obesity be only on losing teams like Oakland maybe... I guess maybe that is where baseball will have to go. Guerrero will hit .380 with 50 homers for Colorado, Kirk catch a few years for the As, and Manoah find his way to the white sox, and Jays can go ahead with non-obese era... however we will be lacking a catcher and watching Moreno win batting titles and be the next pudge rodriquez.

[Jimcanuck]

I for one would find 2 fatties on the team easier to stomach than 3

[Cynical]

What exactly is the argument here? This is a sport and one is obese. Why the long post? The fact that he's obese is a huge disadvantage to the Toronto Blue Jays. This was a bad trade.

[Stangstag]

What exactly is the argument here? This is a sport and one is obese. Why the long post? The fact that he's obese is a huge disadvantage to the Toronto Blue Jays. This was a bad trade.

 

Who involved in the trade is obese?

[connorp]

Who involved in the trade is obese?

 

Why aren’t we talking, mate?

[Stangstag]

Why aren’t we talking, mate?

 

Oh the trade offer? Sorry been busy. I’ll get around to it later tonight

[connorp]

Oh the trade offer? Sorry been busy. I’ll get around to it later tonight

 

Fair enough:)

I’m hung over in bed anyway

[Cynical]

Who involved in the trade is obese?

 

Exactly. That's the problem. The one not involved in the trade is still here okay with his weight and hitting into double plays , while the non obese one is contributing to a World Series aspiring team.

[Jimcanuck]

Oh the trade offer? Sorry been busy. I’ll get around to it later tonight

 

Does it relate to Trea Turner? I'm interested also and will send an offer

[connorp]

Does it relate to Trea Turner? I'm interested also and will send an offer

 

I’m like the Wolf of BJMB street. If I’m in on a stock, time to jump

[Olerud363]

What exactly is the argument here? This is a sport and one is obese. Why the long post? The fact that he's obese is a huge disadvantage to the Toronto Blue Jays. This was a bad trade.

 

The point is that as of now, as of today, Kirk is probably better than Moreno given minor league stats, 2022 stats, 2023 stats, fWAR, bWAR, etc. etc. etc.

 

The way some posts read is that Moreno is a sure fire hall of famer with 70 grade defense and power who will win multiple batting titles. However the stats say even in 2023, Moreno and Kirk were about the same.

 

Kirk's terrible season (2023) is like as good as Moreno's great season (2023). Kirk's all star season (2022) is better than any season Moreno has had.

 

People are making a prediction based on their understanding of obesity. The prediction hasn't come true yet. Next year when Kirk shows up at 320, and Moreno is jacked, and on July 31 hitting .344 with 19 homers 8 fWAR (record for 1st half) and makes the all star game with a record 22 million votes, and Kirk is hitting .190 and has to be released...

 

then the prediction will be true. As of now Kirk > Moreno despite weighing 80 pounds more. (to reiterate Kirk==Moreno in 2023, but career wise Kirk still better).

[Jimcanuck]

The point is that as of now, as of today, Kirk is probably better than Moreno given minor league stats, 2022 stats, 2023 stats, fWAR, bWAR, etc. etc. etc.

 

The way some posts read is that Moreno is a sure fire hall of famer with 70 grade defense and power who will win multiple batting titles. However the stats say even in 2023, Moreno and Kirk were about the same.

 

Kirk's terrible season (2023) is like as good as Moreno's great season (2023). Kirk's all star season (2022) is better than any season Moreno has had.

 

People are making a prediction based on their understanding of obesity. The prediction hasn't come true yet. Next year when Kirk shows up at 320, and Moreno is jacked, and on July 31 hitting .344 with 19 homers 8 fWAR (record for 1st half) and makes the all star game with a record 22 million votes, and Kirk is hitting .190 and has to be released...

 

then the prediction will be true. As of now Kirk > Moreno despite weighing 80 pounds more. (to reiterate Kirk==Moreno in 2023, but career wise Kirk still better).

 

In two years let's compare Moreno's MLB year 3 with Kirk's

 

Moreno has considerable upside whereas Kirk may have plateaued (other than adding another 20-30 lbs or more?)

Edited October 21, 2023 by Jimcanuck

[Spanky99]

I’m like the Wolf of BJMB street. If I’m in on a stock, time to jump

 

lol...

[deanmike]

Yeah. Just seems like a lot of posters are portraying Moreno as a once in lifetime athlete with 70 catcher tools, and not mentioning Kirk has the same tools with a bit lesser arm tool but a better hit 'tool'.

 

In terms of tools Kirk is a 70 tool guy trapped in a 290 pound body. Fat belly gets in the way of throws and swings increasing ground ball rate and reducing baserunners destroyed, still can put up 2 WAR in 100 games and be nominated for gold glove despite the fact he has the body of Danny Devito.

 

I guess we can all hope the Jays high (ie low) performance team recognizes that fitness cost them 8 WAR or so between Kirk, Manoah and Guerrero.

 

I guess some posters would prefer that obesity be only on losing teams like Oakland maybe... I guess maybe that is where baseball will have to go. Guerrero will hit .380 with 50 homers for Colorado, Kirk catch a few years for the As, and Manoah find his way to the white sox, and Jays can go ahead with non-obese era... however we will be lacking a catcher and watching Moreno win batting titles and be the next pudge rodriquez.

 

Yeah at this point it's best for the Jays to just ride it out with Kirk until his body tells him he's a full time DH. After losing Moreno we don't have the catcher depth to move Kirk now, even though in the very near future he will regress physically to only being capable of full time DH. This is a guy who is on the record saying he looks forward to his cheat days.

[Spanky99]

Oh the trade offer? Sorry been busy. I’ll get around to it later tonight

 

Are you blowing that team up? If you're moving Trea you have a bunch of guys that need to be moved then, make sure you get a king's ransom, dude.

[connorp]

Are you blowing that team up? If you're moving Trea you have a bunch of guys that need to be moved then, make sure you get a king's ransom, dude.

 

Either make an offer, or stfu.

[Spanky99]

Either make an offer, or stfu.

 

Eat. A. Dumptruck. Full. Of. Dicks.

[glory]

I’d feel a lot better about the catching situation if Jansen was extended. I thought for sure it would happen last off season but now is fine too. Kirk might rebound, or this could be the new norm for him, but either way I’d bet on Jansen over the next 4-5 years at the catching position over Kirk, injuries and all. What Moreno does in Arizona is far less important than what Varsho does here. He needs to rebound, because if he does, then having a legit defensive CF who can hit league average or better is a huge asset.

[Olerud363]

In two years let's compare Moreno's MLB year 3 with Kirk's

 

Moreno has considerable upside whereas Kirk may have plateaued (other than adding another 20-30 lbs or more?)

 

Kirk compares super-favorably to Yadier Molina and Russel Martin, as does Moreno. Both Molina and Martin went up and down a bit.

 

It's weird to me that everyone assume Kirk will keep on going down, and Moreno up, even though they are currently at the same point hitting wise, with Kirk having a better previous track record and k/bb.

 

Why would Moreno have upside and not Kirk? Obesity I guess. People don't like the look of Kirk. If he looked different everyone would love him with the same stats. Not totally discounting that though. A lot of pudgy players have been successful for a long career... but flat out obese players?

 

On the other hand if Kirk pulled a Prince Fielder and made it to early 30s before his neck unscrewed from his fat body that would give him 8 or 9 good years ahead.

[Olerud363]

Kirk compares super-favorably to Yadier Molina and Russel Martin, as does Moreno. Both Molina and Martin went up and down a bit.

 

 

One weird thing about Martin and Molina is they have ridiculous D-stats that catchers don't seem to get anymore... I'm assuming because at one time only Molina and Martin and a few others were good framers so the 'runs above average' was really high, but even if Kirk is a good framers, the others have caught up so he can't get 40 defense runs on fan graphs, even if he is a good framer.

[Jays24]

If you have a choice between a fatty and a supreme athlete, never take the fatty. It's just that simple lol.