General Blue Jays Discussion Thread (2025)

[Omar]

2 hours ago, ComeTogether said:

I remember going to that stadium in the 90s to watch Nomo pitch.  

 

 

I watched the documentary called Who Killed the Expos recently on Netflix. Didn't like it. Maybe because I was never an Expos fan. 

[HomeRunHomer]

1 hour ago, G-Snarls said:

It's a dream if they can pull it off

Against a lefty I probably move Clement up in the order and put Schneider in LF and maybe Straw in right. 

Lukes comes in later in the game against a rightly or for defense.  Same with Straw for Barger vs a lefty reliever. 

Yup I would for sure have Schneider play over Barger against the lefty.  The platoons got us here , no reason to change that now.

[Omar]

[Stangstag]

Wow thats some great info. Im honestly shocked they would consider him at 2B at this point in the season, they should’ve made the move a lot earlier 

[mphenhef]

23 minutes ago, Omar said:

I watched the documentary called Who Killed the Expos recently on Netflix. Didn't like it. Maybe because I was never an Expos fan. 

I would have thought that documentary could have been pretty short:

1. Jeff Loria

1b. Bud Selig

2. Everyone responsible for the '94 strike (See 1b, Donald Fehr)

[mphenhef]

Looking into the owners first proposal before the strike there were some concessions the owners were offering that could have been very good for baseball players. 

• One of them was starting free agency after 4 years of service time. 
• The Salary floor/cap would have included been a 50/50 split of all revenues between owners and players.  It was 56% going to players back then.  It was 47% in 2024.
• Arbitration eliminated.
• restricted free agency (current team could match any deal for FAs with 4-5 years of service time)

In hindsight, the players may have made a massive mistake not taking that deal.

[John_Havok]

1 hour ago, Omar said:

how many pitchers did they use in the ALCS?

[John_Havok]

47 minutes ago, mphenhef said:

Looking into the owners first proposal before the strike there were some concessions the owners were offering that could have been very good for baseball players. 

• One of them was starting free agency after 4 years of service time. 
• The Salary floor/cap would have included been a 50/50 split of all revenues between owners and players.  It was 56% going to players back then.  It was 47% in 2024.
• Arbitration eliminated.
• restricted free agency (current team could match any deal for FAs with 4-5 years of service time)

In hindsight, the players may have made a massive mistake not taking that deal.

I havent watched this but just on the surface i find it incredibly hard to believe these things were offered by the owners and turned down. That's about as sweet a deal as the players are ever going to get. 

THat last point would require compensation if another team signed the RFA but ... yeah. 

[mphenhef]

24 minutes ago, John_Havok said:

I havent watched this but just on the surface i find it incredibly hard to believe these things were offered by the owners and turned down. That's about as sweet a deal as the players are ever going to get. 

THat last point would require compensation if another team signed the RFA but ... yeah. 

Maybe Restricted is the wrong term.  It was just a right of first refusal.

[HomeRunHomer]

1 hour ago, mphenhef said:

Looking into the owners first proposal before the strike there were some concessions the owners were offering that could have been very good for baseball players. 

• One of them was starting free agency after 4 years of service time. 
• The Salary floor/cap would have included been a 50/50 split of all revenues between owners and players.  It was 56% going to players back then.  It was 47% in 2024.
• Arbitration eliminated.
• restricted free agency (current team could match any deal for FAs with 4-5 years of service time)

In hindsight, the players may have made a massive mistake not taking that deal.

 Looking at the salaries players have these days I find it hard to believe that they made a mistake.

[Jays24]

1 hour ago, Stangstag said:

Wow thats some great info. Im honestly shocked they would consider him at 2B at this point in the season, they should’ve made the move a lot earlier 

Guess who has been calling for this move since Spring Training ;) 

[Stangstag]

12 minutes ago, Jays24 said:

Guess who has been calling for this move since Spring Training ;) 

Pretty sure we all wanted it! im just extremely surprised at the timing of this

[Stangstag]

If Bo is willing to move to 2B permanently, i'd be down to try and resign him

[G-Snarls]

7 minutes ago, Stangstag said:

Pretty sure we all wanted it! im just extremely surprised at the timing of this

It just kind of worked out really.  Bo got hurt. Gimenez had to move to short and played so well you want to keep him here. Bo can see that as well as anyone can from down in the 3B dugout. If he's a team player at all he realizes the best thing right now has him as DH or 2B if his leg allows him to play defense. 

[G-Snarls]

7 minutes ago, Stangstag said:

If Bo is willing to move to 2B permanently, i'd be down to try and resign him

Absolutely!  It's kind of what we all hoped for. 

[Jonn]

The thought of Bo playing his first action at 2B in over 6 years in the World Series is a bizarre scenario to imagine. I would think if he’s healthy enough to play the field they will just put him at Shortstop:

The big news is yes they bring him back as the DH he doesn’t have to field. They might just have him alternate DH and SS.

[Grant77]

4 hours ago, Spanky__99 said:

 

 

Hmm... 😅

These are mostly about Seattle. I don't think the Mariners are very good and I don't respect the way that they build their team. I haven't made that a secret.

Every hitter swings for a home run in every situation. They strike out a ridiculous amount of times. They play horrendous defense. Their owner is a piece of s*** (listen to his infamous interview online) and he doesn't actually invest in the team. It's just sad and low quality, boring baseball all around.

[Stangstag]

1 minute ago, Grant77 said:

These are mostly about Seattle. I don't think the Mariners are very good and I don't respect the way that they build their team. I haven't made that a secret.

Lol 

[Eat My Shatkins]

Bo coming back as a 2B would be beautiful. $26 million AAV or so?

 

DH Springer

C Kirk

1B Vladdy

2B Bo

SS Giminez

3B Clement /Barger

LF Santander / Straw

CF Varsho

RF Barger / Lukes

 

Bench - Heineman, Straw, Lukes, Schneider

OF depth - Loperfido, Clase, Schrek, Pinango

IF depth - Jiminez, Kasevich

 

Get a couple starters and repeating as AL champs will be super easy to make.

[Olerud363.354]

21 minutes ago, Grant77 said:

Every hitter swings for a home run in every situation. They strike out a ridiculous amount of times. They play horrendous defense. Their owner is a piece of s*** (listen to his infamous interview online) and he doesn't actually invest in the team. It's just sad and low quality, boring baseball all around.

They were 5th in the league in strikeouts.  They were exactly league average for batting average.  They were second best offense in AL normalized for park-factor.   They've won the same number of games as the Jays in the 2020s.  There were one swing or one good pitch away from the World Series and deservedly so.  

They are not an unusually weak playoff team in any respect.  Especially when considering their park and league norms in the 2020s.  

[Grant77]

10 minutes ago, Olerud363.354 said:

They were 5th in the league in strikeouts.  They were exactly league average for batting average.  They were second best offense in AL normalized for park-factor.   They've won the same number of games as the Jays in the 2020s.  There were one swing or one good pitch away from the World Series and deservedly so.  

They are not an unusually weak playoff team in any respect.  Especially when considering their park and league norms in the 2020s.  

When I said team building strategy, I didn't specifically mean this season, even though 5th is still bad. Over the last 6 years, for example, they are first in strikeouts. It's a consistent trend.

I don't think a ton of strikeouts and ridiculously bad defense makes for entertaining baseball and I don't think it's a formula that will lead to a Championship. When your catcher comes out of nowhere to have an all-time great season then of course things will look better than they are, but you can't expect that every year. It's just another disappointing missed playoff season of Raleigh is his normal self.

[Olerud363.354]

33 minutes ago, Grant77 said:

I don't think a ton of strikeouts and ridiculously bad defense makes for entertaining baseball and I don't think it's a formula that will lead to a Championship.

There is no formula for a championship as different types of teams win.   I remember at one time you'd hear on this board that you needed aces to win, Jays are winning with an 'ace' that is 10-11.  Or a great bullpen to a win.  Jays are winning with a closer with a 4.x ERA and little (no pun intended) behind him.  But they have a great defense and contact hitting. 

2021 Atlanta Braves were a high strikeout bad defense (according to WAR) team and won it all.   Acuna was injured and replaced by guys Solar, Adam Duvall, Joc Pederson who were 1 dimension high strike out sluggers.  Yet they won the series.  No formula other than enough runs / runs against to make the playoffs then get hot with a bit of luck gets you to the world series.   And even more runs than runs against is not a hard and fast rule as 2023 Diamond Backs and 1987 Twins show. 

Just in my 37 years as a fan I've seen many different types of teams win. 

The weird thing about your Seattle hate is you were 100% right in 2021.  They were everything you describe.  Like a 75 win team that somehow won 90.  But 2022-2025 they have been an 89 win team, with an 89 win expected total, very similar to Jays.   Sure this year Raleigh's 60 homerun seasoned got them in.  But got in 2022 with a normal Raleigh season.  

 

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[max silver]

4 hours ago, Stangstag said:

If Bo is willing to move to 2B permanently, i'd be down to try and resign him

I don't know if Bo is going to have much of a choice. I recall a recent update from one of the MLB insiders stating that none of the MLB teams viewed Bo as a short stop moving forward.

[jmomcc]

Just watched a video previewing guys getting posted this offseason from Japan. The pitcher Imai is interesting. Super low release point which would give us a rotation with a super high release point and a super low one. Just looks like a super solid pitcher all round as well. Projected to be 6/120 - 6/150. 

[Grant77]

5 hours ago, Olerud363.354 said:

There is no formula for a championship as different types of teams win.   I remember at one time you'd hear on this board that you needed aces to win, Jays are winning with an 'ace' that is 10-11.  Or a great bullpen to a win.  Jays are winning with a closer with a 4.x ERA and little (no pun intended) behind him.  But they have a great defense and contact hitting. 

2021 Atlanta Braves were a high strikeout bad defense (according to WAR) team and won it all.   Acuna was injured and replaced by guys Solar, Adam Duvall, Joc Pederson who were 1 dimension high strike out sluggers.  Yet they won the series.  No formula other than enough runs / runs against to make the playoffs then get hot with a bit of luck gets you to the world series.   And even more runs than runs against is not a hard and fast rule as 2023 Diamond Backs and 1987 Twins show. 

Just in my 37 years as a fan I've seen many different types of teams win. 

The weird thing about your Seattle hate is you were 100% right in 2021.  They were everything you describe.  Like a 75 win team that somehow won 90.  But 2022-2025 they have been an 89 win team, with an 89 win expected total, very similar to Jays.   Sure this year Raleigh's 60 homerun seasoned got them in.  But got in 2022 with a normal Raleigh season.  

 

I don't know if the Braves are the best example, given that the had a positive FRV and were 9th in K rate. There's always an exception to every rule and I'm sure there is a team out there that fits the profile, but it's not what you usually see.

I don't hate the team by any means just because I don't like the way they play. It's almost the opposite in some ways. They have an absolute butcher at SS in Crawford and they go get one one the league's worst third basement to play beside him? Get some defense for God sakes. The bench was minor league calibre and they rolled through the deadline with these massive black holes in the lineup. Six through nine hit .113 or something in the playoffs. There was so much potential there with Raleigh and they always seem to waste it with stupid decisions.

Obviously I'm not pulling for them when the Jays are contending, but I would love to see Mariners management pull their heads out of their asses and actually build a well rounded team for once. Their fanbase deserves it so much, very nice people.

[Olerud363.354]

6 hours ago, Grant77 said:

They have an absolute butcher at SS in Crawford

Crawford's career defense is positive on both fangraphs and baseball reference... not exactly a butcher.   The 2021 Braves had negative team defense on fangraphs and 6th highest strikeouts in the NL.   And the team they won the world series with (with Solar and Joc Pederson) had some bad defensive players.  

Back to Crawford his dWAR is positive every year on baseball reference, and his defense on fangraphs did turn negative this year, but the overall story doesn't match your narrative.   Probably an average defensive short stop career wise that is showing signs of age.   

You take traits with some truth and are creating a deceptive narrative.  For example considering park factors when evaluating their pitchers but not their hitters.  Exaggerating slight trends and portraying them as historic oddities. 

When looking at both baseball reference Suarez and Crawford are a combined 50 WAR career on both.  Interestingly bbfref likes Crawford's defense, but fangraphs likes Suarez.   The overall story of two good players with pretty average defense and you are making it out like 25 WAR players are garbage... not true at all.   Are they getting too old to be defensive assets on the left side of the infield?   Getting close to that point and moving forward that's a reasonable argument.    Just that these guys are not absolute butchers historically and have contributed positive defense to Seattle teams in the past. 

 

[Grant77]

1 hour ago, Olerud363.354 said:

Crawford's career defense is positive on both fangraphs and baseball reference... not exactly a butcher.   The 2021 Braves had negative team defense on fangraphs and 6th highest strikeouts in the NL.   And the team they won the world series with (with Solar and Joc Pederson) had some bad defensive players.  

Back to Crawford his dWAR is positive every year on baseball reference, and his defense on fangraphs did turn negative this year, but the overall story doesn't match your narrative.   Probably an average defensive short stop career wise that is showing signs of age.   

 

You take traits with some truth and are creating a deceptive narrative.  For example considering park factors when evaluating their pitchers but not their hitters.  Exaggerating slight trends and portraying them as historic oddities. 

When looking at both baseball reference Suarez and Crawford are a combined 50 WAR career on both.  Interestingly bbfref likes Crawford's defense, but fangraphs likes Suarez.   The overall story of two good players with pretty average defense and you are making it out like 25 WAR players are garbage... not true at all.   Are they getting too old to be defensive assets on the left side of the infield?   Getting close to that point and moving forward that's a reasonable argument.    Just that these guys are not absolute butchers historically and have contributed positive defense to Seattle teams in the past. 

 

Watch IKF's single before the HR that cost them the game and tell me that Crawford is a positive defender. It's been evident all year that any defensive skill that he once had is completely gone. Bo Bichette is similarly bad, but at least there are some positive defenders around him. 

Watch them stick with him in the offseason when it's such an obvious spot to upgrade and they have a ridiculous amount of money under the luxury tax. It would be the most Mariners move ever.

[Laika]

Crawford and Suarez had "fall down range" in that series lmao. It cost them multiple runs.

Cal is a good defender but he had a brutal series. Their outfield was good. Naylor was good. I don't remember Rivas seeing much action.

[mphenhef]

15 hours ago, HomeRunHomer said:

 Looking at the salaries players have these days I find it hard to believe that they made a mistake.

Sure for the stars with their mega contracts, but the late bloomers and non stars have suffered for it.  Look at how many guys can't find spots due to how cheap Pre-arb and arb guys are in comparison.  For what it is worth, players are taking home a smaller proportion of revenue now than what was offered then. 

 

It also would have forced the Pirates, A's and others to spend more money, which I think everyone can agree would be good for baseball.