The Ship is Sinking

[L54]

Well, don’t be like the guys that don’t understand there’s two parts to the business. You’re trying to do the best with your baseball roster, while juggling the business side of things.

 

Something that may be an objective win on the former, could hurt you in the latter.

So, I can see DP’s point.

 

These guys are free agents to be. Why would you hold onto them?

[L54]

Nobody cares if they win 78 or 72 games

[Spanky99]

Going to play the miss game of 1st and Comp round. Behind the Jays pick any franchise changers a reasonable distance where you’d assume they were in contention.

 

2015- Jays #29 Jon Harris (don’t remember him)…not much after, only Austin Riley #41

2106- #21 Zuech- not much after him but behind their next pick #57 JB Woodman was Pete Alonso. They did pick Bo next

2017- Jays whiff three times, only providing some prospect porn with pics #22/28/29- Wormoth/Pearson/Siese (who again)

The year seemed to a bunch of s*** early though

2018- #12 Groshans right after Grayson. Losing a couple would’ve been good. Logan Gilbert went 2 picks later, Casas/McClanahan later in the round if you think they’re a miss but not much otherwise

2019- #11 Manoah. Couple picks later Corbin Carrol

2020- #5 Martin. Interesting players behind that but at this point it’s premature to judge

 

So many mlb misses though. Outside of the Top 5 it’s just such a crap shoot to tank. Even Top 5, there’s a lot of misses. Trading for minor league guys is good for rebuilding obviously, but draft position matters a lot less

 

Did you just figure this out? lol

[Spanky99]

These guys are free agents to be. Why would you hold onto them?

 

DP is talking about Vlad and Bo, has to be.

[connorp]

These guys are free agents to be. Why would you hold onto them?

 

The more knowledgeable baseball minded fans like you are going to be all for it, but many people are fair weathered fans and if the team sends up the Bat signal it’s a rebuild, many people are turning off the proverbial tv and they’ll turn it back on when the Jays are good.

 

So I expect them to present their coming moves as retooling. There will be moves made to be sure but I don’t think they want to give the impression it’s a fire sale.

[John_Havok]

Only 6 teams have worse run differentials than the Jays do: White Sox, Rockies, Marlins, A's, Angels, and Rays. That's 5 god awful teams, and a good team that has lost a lot of players due to injury/legal issues (and they'll still finish better than the Jays in all likelihood). Standing pat and hoping the team gets hot down the stretch would be an insane expectation based on what we have seen so far. The fact that they are 7 games back of a playoff spot with about 100 teams to pass makes it even worse.

 

The team has one of the worst farm systems in the league, a tax paying big league roster that stinks, and like 80% of the roster is not controlled beyond 2025 or 2026. The only reason you (and frankly me too) are afraid of a Jacob Waguespack, Corey Copping, and Billy McKinney trade deadline is because of the guy who would be making the deals. So if your argument is stand pat so that Atkins can't trade Jansen for a 26 year old starter in AA with a 92 MPH fastball, then I could see the logic in that. But sometimes you have to see a team for what it is, and if you're not trading Vlad, Bo, Gausman, etc, now, then you're guaranteeing the asset being diminished/wasted by waiting a year. We have seen how this story ends. The spoilers are the 2017-18 seasons.

 

Yeah, but a full blown rebuild gets you the Orioles seasons from 2018-2021...except no extra picks handed to you for free by MLB to ensure you're bonus pools are huge.

 

Not a single person should ever want their team to go that route, when the MLB draft is such a crapshoot

[John_Havok]

Going to play the miss game of 1st and Comp round. Behind the Jays pick any franchise changers a reasonable distance where you’d assume they were in contention.

 

2015- Jays #29 Jon Harris (don’t remember him)…not much after, only Austin Riley #41

2106- #21 Zuech- not much after him but behind their next pick #57 JB Woodman was Pete Alonso. They did pick Bo next

2017- Jays whiff three times, only providing some prospect porn with pics #22/28/29- Wormoth/Pearson/Siese (who again)

The year seemed to a bunch of s*** early though

2018- #12 Groshans right after Grayson. Losing a couple would’ve been good. Logan Gilbert went 2 picks later, Casas/McClanahan later in the round if you think they’re a miss but not much otherwise

2019- #11 Manoah. Couple picks later Corbin Carrol

2020- #5 Martin. Interesting players behind that but at this point it’s premature to judge

 

So many mlb misses though. Outside of the Top 5 it’s just such a crap shoot to tank. Even Top 5, there’s a lot of misses. Trading for minor league guys is good for rebuilding obviously, but draft position matters a lot less

 

Hindsighting the MLB draft and saying there was interesting players taken after your teams pick is pretty foolish given the amount of pre-draft deals that get done every year

 

It's commonplace that players will tell certain teams they won't sign so don't bother drafting them, and go lower to the team they want to go to.

 

It's a s*** system tbh

[connorp]

Hindsighting the MLB draft and saying there was interesting players taken after your teams pick is pretty foolish given the amount of pre-draft deals that get done every year

 

It's commonplace that players will tell certain teams they won't sign so don't bother drafting them, and go lower to the team they want to go to.

 

It's a s*** system tbh

 

I don’t disagree. I basically said where you pick means s*** in the end.

I was just looking for kicks really and didn’t realize the Jays haven’t even had one solid regular player develop so far out of the last 20 years. Prett nuts. Not sure if other teams are like that.

[Laika]

Yeah, but a full blown rebuild gets you the Orioles seasons from 2018-2021...except no extra picks handed to you for free by MLB to ensure you're bonus pools are huge.

 

Not a single person should ever want their team to go that route, when the MLB draft is such a crapshoot

 

The Os ran 28th and 30th ranked payrolls in 2019 and 2020

 

Toronto would not have to be that bad. They could make all the obvious player sales and do a 2-3 year rebuild but still have a moderate payroll and try to get extra value through free agency. Sign imports like Y Rod. Compete for guys like Imanaga.

 

Basically they could rebuild and still be a WC3 hunting team in theory.

[connorp]

Hindsighting the MLB draft and saying there was interesting players taken after your teams pick is pretty foolish given the amount of pre-draft deals that get done every year

 

It's commonplace that players will tell certain teams they won't sign so don't bother drafting them, and go lower to the team they want to go to.

 

It's a s*** system tbh

 

That said, I don’t totally agree with you. I think they simply drafted Manoah over Carroll as an example, but any single instance and such would be completely unfair to judge on. You go off the body of work. In Jays case, it’s not good though

[John_Havok]

I don’t disagree. I basically said where you pick means s*** in the end.

I was just looking for kicks really and didn’t realize the Jays haven’t even had one solid regular player develop so far out of the last 20 years. Prett nuts. Not sure if other teams are like that.

 

Well, it does matter where you draft in terms of how much money you get to sign your picks, and how many picks you have also matters.

 

But yes, I agree that in the MLB system you can great great talent outside the traditional top end picks like other sports given, but that only because of the way tye cash pools are setup.

 

Tons of times teams simply just can't take their top rated players because they know they won't sign. MLB draft gives so much leverage to the draftees compared to other sports.

[max silver]

No, it's not a blessing in disguise. A tank implies worse performing players and a declining trade value for these players. Enough with this loser mentality. Losing begets more losing it doesn't beget winning. Houston and Baltimore had more going on than just a bunch of 100 loss seasons.

 

You misunderstood what I meant, I simply meant the team should admit the season is likely lost and sell off the impending free agents at the trade deadline, not that they should blow things up and enter full on tank mode. There is still an opportunity to retool for 2025 and if the team can attain some MLB ready pieces that's a good start for next season.

[Omar]

The Os ran 28th and 30th ranked payrolls in 2019 and 2020

 

Toronto would not have to be that bad. They could make all the obvious player sales and do a 2-3 year rebuild but still have a moderate payroll and try to get extra value through free agency. Sign imports like Y Rod. Compete for guys like Imanaga.

 

Basically they could rebuild and still be a WC3 hunting team in theory.

 

Yeah this makes sense and probably what they're thinking right now. Doesn't discount the fact that this team needs an enema before heading into the 2025 season.

[John_Havok]

The Os ran 28th and 30th ranked payrolls in 2019 and 2020

 

Toronto would not have to be that bad. They could make all the obvious player sales and do a 2-3 year rebuild but still have a moderate payroll and try to get extra value through free agency. Sign imports like Y Rod. Compete for guys like Imanaga.

 

Basically they could rebuild and still be a WC3 hunting team in theory.

 

Oh for sure, I'm not saying they should go scorched earth at all. I'll never understand that mindset in MLB given the way the draft works and how talent is developed. It makes no sense. The Orioles could just as easily still be garbage if they only hit on the usual % of picks. Good for them they hit on a ridiculously higher % more.

 

Plus, given the Jays use to Rogers as the face of their marketing juggernaut, a full out tank makes even less sense from a business perspective.

 

Sure, they'll trade some guys this year but the reason they aren't winning now isn't because a few trades haven't worked out or they didn't sign the right FAs last off-season. It's still largely because the same suspects from last season are all way below where they should be offensively. They couldnt mitigate all of those issues with the FA pool from last season.

[glory]

Yeah, but a full blown rebuild gets you the Orioles seasons from 2018-2021...except no extra picks handed to you for free by MLB to ensure you're bonus pools are huge.

 

Not a single person should ever want their team to go that route, when the MLB draft is such a crapshoot

 

The Jays could trade Vlad, Bo, Gausman, Berrios (if they can), Varsho, etc, and use that saved money + the prospect capital they get back to field as competitive a team as they can. It doesn't have to be an Orioles style tanking. It doesn't have to be a tanking at all. Just maximize the returns on the existing players who won't be around the next time this team is actually good. Doing that should, in theory, help get the team to the next competitive window a lot sooner. They'd have to accept that 2025 will be pretty grim though, which I'm not sure ownership would want.

[jaysblue]

I don't think this team needs to go full on tank mode. They must trade some impending FA's like Kikuchi, Garcia, Jansen and entertain offers on Vladdy, Bo, and Gausman if they get solid returns. Ideally, it would be nice to do a quick retool for 2025 though that requires a busy and creative offseason to do so. Not sure I would want Atkins at the helm for that after his huge screw up this past offseason.

 

I do agree with DP that right now you're likely not getting much for both Vlad or especially Bo given their struggles, even with 1.5 years left of control. Better to keep them for 2025 and hope their bats explode in their FA year, which benefits the Jays in terms of contending and also increases their trade value if they need to move them.

 

Definitely have to trade Kikuchi, Jansen and Garcia IMO and anyone with an expiring contract. Gausman I think could bring in a nice return still given his affordable contract and control. As for Berrios, would be nice to clear him off the books moving forward but that will be tough.

[MikeM3]

You'll probably find better players by cycling through dozens of aaaa and retreads than a 34 year old vet with 3 years left on the deal

[BigCecil]

Kind of gone under the radar Berrios season. In 2023 he was worth 3 fWAR. So far this season he is worth 0.3 WAR and has a 4.74 xERA.

[Spanky99]

Kind of gone under the radar Berrios season. In 2023 he was worth 3 fWAR. So far this season he is worth 0.3 WAR and has a 4.74 xERA.

 

Too many bombs. bWAR is better for SP, or RA9, haven't checked yet.

[mikepelfrey]

Look at the sellers. Rockies never sell. Angels and White Sox are retarded so they'll get a Drew Thorpe back instead of something good (Getz is retarded but their PD has already passed us). The Angels don't even have anything on top of it.

 

The only dangerous sellers are that cuck Bendix in Miami and the Rays.

 

But get this, none of them can retain or take back money like us.

Everything I’ve read says Drew Thorpe is an elite prospect

 

What’s wrong with a 21-3 minor league record and a 2.17 era? Since being called up by the White Sox he’s had 3 starts 2 of which were good and admittedly one stinker. Which is normal for a 23 year old rookie. Compare him to Manoah in his starts this year I take Thorpe 10 times out of 10 because the rookie ISNT a headcase

[Laika]

Everything I’ve read says Drew Thorpe is an elite prospect

 

What’s wrong with a 21-3 minor league record and a 2.17 era? Since being called up by the White Sox he’s had 3 starts 2 of which were good and admittedly one stinker. Which is normal for a 23 year old rookie. Compare him to Manoah in his starts this year I take Thorpe 10 times out of 10 because the rookie ISNT a headcase

 

Stuff isn't good

[BigCecil]

Too many bombs. bWAR is better for SP, or RA9, haven't checked yet.

 

I get that but comparing apples to apples fWAR over 2 seasons.

[Spanky99]

The jays should not be trading anyone until Shatkins are gone, seriously does anybody really believe they are smart enough to acquire real talent at this point? Most of the pitching staff is 30 or older so it’s not like they are going to carry the team into contention.

 

Mediocrity’s in the cards for the Jays if we’re honest about it, 3rd wild card whoop-de-do, this isn’t The Diamondbacks or Rangers who had enough talent on the roster to get hot at the right time and make a run, this is a team that gets swept by the Orioles or Yankees or Guardians even if they get the #1 wild card spot.

 

None of us should want Shatkins having anything to do with any of the trades that will determine the future of this franchise

 

And do you want to know the scariest part? 70% of the 40 man roster is 27 and older and with all of our top prospects on the mlb roster we have by far the worst talent pool currently in the minors. MLB pipeline rated them 30 out of 30 just the other day.

 

Your posts continue to be garbage as you've done before, lol. Post history is a thing, and yours is terrible.

[AMS528]

Ok well I think it's possible the ship has sunk now.We may as well move towards salvaging what's possible and getting value for the pieces we have.

 

35-43 is bad, the run differential they're running backs it up. The starting pitching is worse than last year, the relievers have been even worse than that and we were only going to survive if it those parts had stayed great.

[James Key]

Perhaps we luck out and win a lottery this season like Cleveland did.

 

How does Cleveland keep rolling and we inherit the brain trust from their former management and we are this bad?

 

That Ramirez trade should have happened prior to his extension. Prospects are such mercurial assets vs bonafide mvp level players. Alex would have made that deal.

[Stangstag]

Its been several years since we’ve essentially been eliminated from playoff contention THIS early.

 

This sucks. Embarrassing given the payroll they’re working with.

[Brownie19]

Its been several years since we’ve essentially been eliminated from playoff contention THIS early.

 

This sucks. Embarrassing given the payroll they’re working with.

 

There are lots of high payroll teams who are terrible this year. Mets, Astros, Jays, Texas, Cubs, SF. 5 of the Top 10 payrolls in baseball are below .500 and pretty s*****. It's not nearly as uncommon as some may think.

[connorp]

Brownie is the captain. He’s going down with the ship. Screw Max and Spanky taking off on the life rafts

[jaysblue]

Brownie is the captain. He’s going down with the ship. Screw Max and Spanky taking off on the life rafts

 

Brownie will always support Ross Atkins and this front office no matter what. I don't think he'll ever say anything bad about them.

[Carlos Danger]

There are lots of high payroll teams who are terrible this year. Mets, Astros, Jays, Texas, Cubs, SF. 5 of the Top 10 payrolls in baseball are below .500 and pretty s*****. It's not nearly as uncommon as some may think.

 

Jesus Christ man, every fnnn post of yours is to point out that other Teams also suck.

 

Do you have any accountability for this Team or in your job?

 

Boss, don't fire me because there are other people in the company that get paid the same as I do and suck just as bad.

 

Zero playoff wins with a home built team in 8 years. No advance progress since 2020.

 

The Teams you are talking about, 3 of the 4 have won world series in the last few years and most of them are still in it and some were rocked with injuries.

 

Every post is the same s*** with you. Other teams don't have SP depth, other teams are in a slump.

 

This is about results and the Blue Jays! Have some fnnn accountability for once for your sports team and demand some results.

 

Same BS excuse factory out of you for years..