General Blue Jays Discussion Thread (2023)

[xposbrad]

Can someone explain to me how, in 8 years now, the only starting pitcher this current Jays management team has developed is Alek Manoah? And he sucks now too.

 

Not a single homegrown starter ready in AAA either.

 

The rotation is made up of expensive FAs and one guy they traded for, who also kind of sucks now too.

 

In 8 years??

 

They didn't even come close with enough failed starters to build a good bullpen in those 8 years either lol

 

f*** me gently, that's terrible.

 

Good question. If it makes you feel any better, Phils/Padres both have higher payrolls and lower winning % lol. I would fire Atkins in a heartbeat. I see what's in the minors and what product they have now with the 7th highest payroll and there is too much underperformance.

[Olerud363]

Can someone explain to me how, in 8 years now, the only starting pitcher this current Jays management team has developed is Alek Manoah? And he sucks now too.

 

Not a single homegrown starter ready in AAA either.

 

The rotation is made up of expensive FAs and one guy they traded for, who also kind of sucks now too.

 

In 8 years??

 

They didn't even come close with enough failed starters to build a good bullpen in those 8 years either lol

 

f*** me gently, that's terrible.

 

Other than Manoah they've developed no player signed or drafted after Dec 31st 2016.

[keggy]

Lawrie was such a disappointment. A Cdn who came up had a 157 wRC+ over 200 PAs. 2.6 WAR. I remember arguing endlessly with "DJBLUERAY" on the old Board that he might have a better career than Machado. Man was I wrong on that one.

 

In the end he couldn't even make any contact.

 

Lawrie versus Trout was an active debate back then.

[Jays333]

Can someone explain to me how, in 8 years now, the only starting pitcher this current Jays management team has developed is Alek Manoah? And he sucks now too.

 

Not a single homegrown starter ready in AAA either.

 

The rotation is made up of expensive FAs and one guy they traded for, who also kind of sucks now too.

 

In 8 years??

 

They didn't even come close with enough failed starters to build a good bullpen in those 8 years either lol

 

f*** me gently, that's terrible.

 

The fact that this FO still has a job here with this being a thing is mind blowing to me.

[Olerud363]

Lawrie versus Trout was an active debate back then.

 

I remember there was a flaw in WAR back then and at one point in 2012 Lawrie was like leading the majors in WAR by a ridiculous amount because it didn't correct for the shift properly.

 

Even without the flaw in WAR Lawrie looked really good through his first 100 games. Great 2011, solid first half of 2012. Then he crashed to nothing in like a week, maybe partly on account of crashing into the camera bay at Yankee Stadium (though he came out of the camera bay seemingly OK in the moment).

[John_Havok]

So much of the frustration of the team is perspective and expectations, not just abotu the Jays but other teams in the division.

 

Tampa was expected to be good, not otherworldly ridiculous.

Baltimore was expected to be good, not 100 win good.

Boston was expected to be .500ish - not 90+ win pace good.

 

New York is about as expected.

Pre-season if you were told at the end of May the Jays would be 3 games back of New york in the AL East, that would be within the realm of expectations and you would expect NY to be leading the division with the Jays in 2nd. They still trail the Yankees by 3 games, but the jays are in 5th, Yankees 3rd.

 

Vlad is just a chronic undeachiever of his talent after what we all saw in 2021 so essentially unless he duplicates that, he's disappointing - even if he's still really good.

Half the lineup and the entire bench is underperforming their projections

 

Some guys busted out of the gate white hot (chapman) and have now settled back to Earth so lately they seem disappointing. But if someone told you in the offseason that through most of May Chapman would be a 144 wRC+ bat after last seasons 117, not a single person would say that would be disappointing.

 

Expectations on Manoah were some regression, not a full blown dumpster fire. Expections on the pen were much better swing and miss, which is actually happening! But then they give up HRs anytime it's not a whiff out of nowhere.

 

People expected that jays to be above .500 and either at the top, or near the top of the division. Only half of that is true because 3 of the teams in the division are outperforming their expectations, so naturally that adds to the anger and dissapointment.

[Spanky99]

Lawrie was such a disappointment. A Cdn who came up had a 157 wRC+ over 200 PAs. 2.6 WAR. I remember arguing endlessly with "DJBLUERAY" on the old Board that he might have a better career than Machado. Man was I wrong on that one.

 

In the end he couldn't even make any contact.

 

That dude still posts here, just not as insufferable anymore, lol.

[mphenhef]

Can someone explain to me how, in 8 years now, the only starting pitcher this current Jays management team has developed is Alek Manoah? And he sucks now too.

 

Not a single homegrown starter ready in AAA either.

 

The rotation is made up of expensive FAs and one guy they traded for, who also kind of sucks now too.

 

In 8 years??

 

They didn't even come close with enough failed starters to build a good bullpen in those 8 years either lol

 

f*** me gently, that's terrible.

 

The only reliever they even drafted is Pearson. Mayza and Romano are AA draft picks.

[Spanky99]

So much of the frustration of the team is perspective and expectations, not just abotu the Jays but other teams in the division.

 

Tampa was expected to be good, not otherworldly ridiculous.

Baltimore was expected to be good, not 100 win good.

Boston was expected to be .500ish - not 90+ win pace good.

 

New York is about as expected.

Pre-season if you were told at the end of May the Jays would be 3 games back of New york in the AL East, that would be within the realm of expectations and you would expect NY to be leading the division with the Jays in 2nd. They still trail the Yankees by 3 games, but the jays are in 5th, Yankees 3rd.

 

Vlad is just a chronic undeachiever of his talent after what we all saw in 2021 so essentially unless he duplicates that, he's disappointing - even if he's still really good.

Half the lineup and the entire bench is underperforming their projections

 

Some guys busted out of the gate white hot (chapman) and have now settled back to Earth so lately they seem disappointing. But if someone told you in the offseason that through most of May Chapman would be a 144 wRC+ bat after last seasons 117, not a single person would say that would be disappointing.

 

Expectations on Manoah were some regression, not a full blown dumpster fire. Expections on the pen were much better swing and miss, which is actually happening! But then they give up HRs anytime it's not a whiff out of nowhere.

 

People expected that jays to be above .500 and either at the top, or near the top of the division. Only half of that is true because 3 of the teams in the division are outperforming their expectations, so naturally that adds to the anger and dissapointment.

 

The ebbs and flows of baseball.

[glory]

The only reliever they even drafted is Pearson. Mayza and Romano are AA draft picks.

 

They had to trade their #4/5 hitter from last season (Teoscar), a useful power hitting LHB who can hit in the middle of a lineup (Tellez), a former 1st round pick (Groshans), and spend what will end up being $16m over 3 years (Jimi Garcia) to set up the rest of their pen. Meanwhile teams like the Rays and O’s are picking up scrap heap guys and doing a better job year to year.

 

Atkins and his regime are really bad at player development, especially on the pitching side.

[John_Havok]

They had to trade their #4/5 hitter from last season (Teoscar), a useful power hitting LHB who can hit in the middle of a lineup (Tellez), a former 1st round pick (Groshans), and spend what will end up being $16m over 3 years (Jimi Garcia) to set up the rest of their pen. Meanwhile teams like the Rays and O’s are picking up scrap heap guys and doing a better job year to year.

 

Atkins and his regime are really bad at player development, especially on the pitching side.

 

They picked Ray of the scrap heap and turned him into a Cy Young winner. Pitching development as a whole... I guess a bit underwhelming but there's very few teams that have that secret sauce for pitching development consistenly. Atlanta and Tampa do for sure...Dodgers probably in that list.

Edited May 26, 2023 by John_Havok

[Laika]

Jansen to the IL.

 

Left testicle is strained and/or missing.

 

Taylor Heineken called up

[Terminator]

Move Varsho to C.

 

Hineyman sucks and Varsho's noodle bat profiles there better anyway.

[Terminator]

Also, if they are announcing moves I can only assume that's it for the day and that Manoah is safe for now?

[John_Havok]

Also, if they are announcing moves I can only assume that's it for the day and that Manoah is safe for now?

 

There's no real need to announce a Manoah "injury" until his next start unless they wanted to carry an extra reliever in the meantime.

[BigCecil]

That dude still posts here, just not as insufferable anymore, lol.

 

Lol. I know. Under New name. 5Tool. He was right about Lawrie/Machado though. By a lot!!!!

[Spanky99]

Lol. I know. Under New name. 5Tool. He was right about Lawrie/Machado though. By a lot!!!!

 

DigitalRock...

[Terminator]

There's no real need to announce a Manoah "injury" until his next start unless they wanted to carry an extra reliever in the meantime.

 

Right but what's the benefit to waiting 5 days? Tells me he's getting another turn in the rotation.

[John_Havok]

Right but what's the benefit to waiting 5 days? Tells me he's getting another turn in the rotation.

 

Quite likely, or they're trying to dummy up enough paperwork to make the IL stint stick without serious scrutiny and that's taking a day or two

[John_Havok]

CBS writers on who the best SS is in baseball right now:

 

Matt Snyder: Man, this is a tough one and I think a good portion of it boils down to if we're ready to give the mantle to Wander Franco yet. Given his inconsistencies and injury history to this point, his recent slump makes me want to move off of him. To be clear, he's already great and he's going to get better. I'm only saying it gives me pause in saying he's the best shortstop in baseball right now. Instead, I'll stick in that division and say it's Bo Bichette's time. It's his third full season and he continues to get better just about everywhere (significantly lowering his strikeout rate, for example). He has the foundation right now to make the leap into a high MVP finish (top five or even top three?). I suspect some of the usual names (Francisco Lindor, Carlos Correa, Trea Turner, Corey Seager, Xander Bogaerts) can thrust themselves into the mix by the end of the season, but right now, for me, it's Bichette.

 

R.J. Anderson: As is always the case with these kinds of questions, I think it just depends on how you define such a thing. If you're thinking about this from a multi-year perspective, then I think Carlos Correa is probably the answer. (To wit, he leads all shortstops in Wins Above Replacement since 2021.) If you're just looking at this season, then yeah, I think it's perfectly reasonable to say either Wander Franco or Bo Bichette.

 

Mike Axisa: You know, it's entirely possible the answer is Fernando Tatis Jr., who is of course playing right field (and playing it well) in deference to Xander Bogaerts. If we're picking the best shortstop for the next 10 years, then I'd take Wander Franco, no questions asked. If we're picking for just 2023, then I'd go Corey Seager. He's been excellent (around his hamstring injury), he's in his prime, and the skills suggest he should be a high-end performer all year. Carlos Correa and Trea Turner have struggled enough that I lean Seager. Franco long-term, Seager short-term is my answer. Shoutout to Bogaerts and Bo Bichette.

 

Dayn Perry: In the here and now, I might narrowly lean Xander Bogaerts over Wander Franco and Bo Bichette thanks in part to the strides that Bogaerts has made with the glove. If we're talking overall with reasonable near-term expectations moving forward, I'll say Carlos Correa once he finds his level at the plate. He's got some concerning quality-of-contact indicators, however (as does Trea Turner). So it's Bogaerts for now with a nod to Bo Bichette, Corey Seager, and Wander Franco (who'll soon take over this honor).

[Buster]

I, too, am extremely frustrated. Mostly at:

 

- Vlad's lack of development

- Varsho underperforming expectations

- Jansen and Kirk's mediocre starts, following the big "vote of confidence" that was trading Moreno

- Manoah pumpkin

- Reliever mediocrity

- The depressing state of the farm system

 

Pick any two of those and they are really fire-able offenses. But all of them? Fuuuu

 

We know Atkins sucks. But what does Shapiro even do? He seems like a general contractor in charge of outfield renovations.

[Spanky99]

Pick any two of those and they are really fire-able offenses. But all of them? Fuuuu

 

We know Atkins sucks. But what does Shapiro even do? He seems like a general contractor in charge of outfield renovations.

 

That's kind of his job, though? Any big firing would be John and Ross collectively.

[Pendleton]

[BigCecil]

Not sure who caught Nate's outing last night.

 

He battled and got through it, but the lack of command on both the FB and especially the breaking balls is concerning. He topped out at 98.

 

The plotted breaking ball pitch chart must look like a Jackson Pollack painting.

[BigCecil]

Pick any two of those and they are really fire-able offenses. But all of them? Fuuuu

 

We know Atkins sucks. But what does Shapiro even do? He seems like a general contractor in charge of outfield renovations.

 

I'd be more than fine moving on from Ned Flanders. Shapiro gets a lot of respect from all corners.

 

The Jays can't be that hard to run from a business perspective can they?

 

A National brand in a big local market that was re-energized by 2015 & 2016 bringing us back out of the wilderness - Eternal franchise moments created.

 

Owners investing hundreds of millions in renos, development facilities, luxury tax payroll and free agent signings. (I get that the Board's confidence in Shapiro is part of the reason they are agreeing to make those investments)

 

Young star(s) like Vlad already there to market.

 

If they can remain reasonably competitive, the fans and eyeballs will be there.

[jaysblue]

I mean if there's one group of guys who you could just tell to get their heads out of their asses and hit better it's Springer, Bichette (already elite), Vlad, Chapman, Kirk, Jansen, Belt (actually looking competent these days). The only ones there currently with issues is Vlad who has every single hitting tool you could ask for, but bad habits, and Kirk who's become a groundball machine but could certainly snap out of it. It's not like this is the Yankees current lineup who is Judge, Rizzo, Torres and a bunch of literal scrubs to just be better. These guys are actually good and have been good. Biggio, Espinal, whatever, yeah good luck to them.

 

Pretty much majority of the lineup lol.

[jaysblue]

What does it achieve though, these closed door meetings...

 

Do they actually say "Hey Vlad, you need to hustle to 1B bud...", or do they put up videos of their last ABs and dissect them with 'you gotta stop swinging at those lifting fastballs Daulton, some of them are at your f***ing eye level man... and Alek, the pitch clock is owning you - can't drive your slider through as you used to before when you had rest in between pitches, any ideas on how we can fix this"?

 

If it is all fluff like 'we gotta do better', then f*** is that going to do lol

 

Since the meeting, the Blue Jays are 1-0.

[Olerud363]

Since the meeting, the Blue Jays are 1-0.

 

They still made a bunch of baserunning mistakes and their pitchers walked too many guys... jesus way too many guys.

 

They literally won because Bo hit a 425 foot homerun at the right time, and the Swanson ball 4 was called strike 3 instead and changed the game.

 

All the talk about the little things when it is the missing 3 run homeruns as compared to 2015, 2016, 2021 and 2022 that is making just as much a difference.

 

(CD will complain that when we lose 6-5 we should have won, forgetting that 8-6 wins are a thing).

 

Oh well, thank god for the meeting, hopefully it's a start of 15 game winning streak.

[Jimcanuck]

So maybe it wasn't the barrio.

[Stangstag]

So maybe it wasn't the barrio.

 

I think this team just can’t handle the pressure and expectations, and that starts with the core guys like Bo and Vlad. Teams like the Rangers/Orioles/Redsox are all playing well because they have 0 pressure and 0 expectations.

 

Idk, it is what it is. Maybe we never win anything or make a deep run with Bo/Vlad because they just aren’t THOSE guys.