Around Baseball 2023

[MikeM3]

Damn the Sox will grab Click

[Laika]

He's still good at the same things he was good at here, but he now also values financial flexibility. It's unfathomable to think of current AA trading for 30+ year olds on long-term FA contracts.

 

The Marlins trade and the Dickey deal... omg it's so bad to think about it

 

arguably, those two trades cost AA his GM job for a while. His time in exile with the Dodgers, he probably thought about nothing but those two trades.

[glory]

Bloom was an absolute failure in Boston. Terrible tenure. Good on them for cutting bait after only 4 years.

 

Bloom had one of the worst runs I have seen. He messed up practically every big move he made. Surprised he even lasted this long.

 

Bad news for the Jays since if the Red Sox hire someone who actually knows what they are doing, then they have some of the pieces there for a quick turnaround.

[Spanky99]

He's still good at the same things he was good at here, but he now also values financial flexibility. It's unfathomable to think of current AA trading for 30+ year olds on long-term FA contracts.

 

Correct, I almost took the bait of jaysblue saying AA left this front office in a good place, everyone here knew what was inevitable.

[Brownie19]

I see Baseball Savant has changed their layout. Anyone know what the numbers in grey, immediately to the right of the percentile circle means?

 

I don't personally like this new layout FWIW.

[Orgfiller]

I see Baseball Savant has changed their layout. Anyone know what the numbers in grey, immediately to the right of the percentile circle means?

 

I don't personally like this new layout FWIW.

 

They're just the raw values, the units presumably being run value added (or subtracted) relative to some baseline level. I think Savant prefers relative to average than to replacement level.

 

They’re basically just giving you more info now in the main player dashboard rather than just the percentile rankings. At least now you can see how they compare to the rest of the league even if they’re unqualified.

[G-Snarls]

Bloom had one of the worst runs I have seen. He messed up practically every big move he made. Surprised he even lasted this long.

 

Bad news for the Jays since if the Red Sox hire someone who actually knows what they are doing, then they have some of the pieces there for a quick turnaround.

 

Not everyone from the Rays is good at their job. Friedman is long gone.

 

I'm starting to wonder where to give credit to the Rays FO anymore

[BTS]

The Marlins trade and the Dickey deal... omg it's so bad to think about it

 

arguably, those two trades cost AA his GM job for a while. His time in exile with the Dodgers, he probably thought about nothing but those two trades.

 

Then trying to salvage the Marlins mistake by doubling down and trading Reyes for a chronically-injured Tulo, extending the financial burden by 2 years or something like that.

[Laika]

Then trying to salvage the Marlins mistake by doubling down and trading Reyes for a chronically-injured Tulo, extending the financial burden by 2 years or something like that.

 

Pretty funny how stinky even THAT deal is in hindsight. The Ninja had to add Hoffman and Castro for the right to pay Troy Tulowitzki $98M for basically nothing. I think Reyes was owed $48M at the time of the trade. So a $50M additional commitment.

 

Granted, Hoffman and Castro would have never helped Toronto, anyway, given how their careers unfolded.

[Spanky99]

We could say Shapiro and Atkins walked into a good situation which they did. Baseball was extremely popular again here, they had a World Series contending team in 2016 and even believed they were competitive in 2017 before the injuries.

 

How can you say this with a straight face, seriously?

[Omar]

Then trying to salvage the Marlins mistake by doubling down and trading Reyes for a chronically-injured Tulo, extending the financial burden by 2 years or something like that.

 

But he knew he was a lame duck by that point so you have to factor that into his decision making.

[Spanky99]

Heston Kjerstad being called up by the O's.

[connorp]

Heston Kjerstad being called up by the O's.

 

Dylan Beavers 155 wRC+ in AA. They got that 30/40 hit tool wrong. Going to be best of their OF crop

[Masterbather]

Pretty funny how stinky even THAT deal is in hindsight. The Ninja had to add Hoffman and Castro for the right to pay Troy Tulowitzki $98M for basically nothing. I think Reyes was owed $48M at the time of the trade. So a $50M additional commitment.

 

Granted, Hoffman and Castro would have never helped Toronto, anyway, given how their careers unfolded.

 

Not going to suggest that was a great deal, it wasn't, but I also don't view it as negatively as many do. Jays did get some value out of Tulo, certainly on the defensive end, for a team that was trying to win the WS. If we win, it's worth the payout in the end. We knew the window was closed after 2016 anyhow, who cares about the money at that point.

 

Was it THAT much more than Reyes would've contributed? No probably not overall, but given the construction of the team, we needed Tulo's D more than his O.

[Olerud363]

Dylan Beavers 155 wRC+ in AA. They got that 30/40 hit tool wrong. Going to be best of their OF crop

 

It's insane. Beavers, Cowser, Basallo, Kjerstad, Holliday and Henderson and Rutchman already there.

 

These f***ing bastards made a freak park and now are going to throw out a line up of 7 or 8 home grown left handed hitting sluggers and have the f***ing best homefield advantage in baseball.

[Spanky99]

Dylan Beavers 155 wRC+ in AA. They got that 30/40 hit tool wrong. Going to be best of their OF crop

 

No one cares, connorp.

[Olerud363]

Not going to suggest that was a great deal, it wasn't, but I also don't view it as negatively as many do. Jays did get some value out of Tulo, certainly on the defensive end, for a team that was trying to win the WS. If we win, it's worth the payout in the end. We knew the window was closed after 2016 anyhow, who cares about the money at that point.

 

Was it THAT much more than Reyes would've contributed? No probably not overall, but given the construction of the team, we needed Tulo's D more than his O.

 

Both Bautista and EE were 30 and 32 years old in 2013 and the Jays tried for a contention window with their two big players aged 30-33 and 32-35.

 

I see the thinking with Tulo and Donaldson. 30 and 31 in 2016. Build around those 2 for another 4 year run. 2016 to 2019 (like they might extent Donaldson or something if healthy).

 

Unfortunately by 2018 at age 32/33 Donaldson/Tulo played 20 games total at an age where Bautista/EE were still playing 300 productive games

[Krylian]

Watch Boston try to poach AA from Atlanta, so he can torment the Jays from up close.

[AMS528]

Watch Boston try to poach AA from Atlanta, so he can torment the Jays from up close.

 

His extension is through 2024. It was signed in 2020 so pre WS win. So his price is going to jump up significantly. Friedman is probably making like ten million a year and you figure AA is going to be asking for something like that.

[Spanky99]

Watch Boston try to poach AA from Atlanta, so he can torment the Jays from up close.

 

AA isn't leaving till his hand is full of rings, lol.

[Spanky99]

Oh wow, didn't know this, they'd be nuts to let him pitch...

 

[jaysblue]

The Marlins trade and the Dickey deal... omg it's so bad to think about it

 

arguably, those two trades cost AA his GM job for a while. His time in exile with the Dodgers, he probably thought about nothing but those two trades.

 

Yeah they were awful at the time considering but did the Jays really miss anyone of significance in that Marlins trade?

 

At the time, it was tough signing big name FA's in Toronto so I understand some of the reasoning behind it and to be honest it wasn't all that bad. Reyes had a 2.5 WAR in 93 games in 2013 and a 3.8 WAR in 2014. Completely fell off in 2015, though AA traded for Tulo at the deadline. Mark Buehrle was really solid and durable here. Posted WARs of 2.2, 3.7 and 2 during his three seasons here. The X factor was Josh Johnson. If he was healthy, would have made the trade look better than it was. He was 28-years-old coming off a 3.3 WAR season and who had a 5.5 WAR and 6 WAR season in 2009 and 2010. Who would have thought Johnson was done after the 2013 season at the age of 29?

 

The RA Dickey trade was the one that hurt. It happened because of the Marlins trade unfortunately. Definitely was a weird trade by AA and probably was his worst. Wasn't a fan of acquiring Dickey at that high price tag, but he for the most part was durable and ate innings. 1.8 WAR in each season here from 2013-2015 and a 0.8 WAR in 2016. Still, wish the Jays had Thor in 2015 and 2016.

[Krylian]

AA isn't leaving till his hand is full of rings, lol.

 

He does if you show him the $$ and the CEO title?

[Spanky99]

He does if you show him the $$ and the CEO title?

 

Plausible.

[Laika]

Yeah they were awful at the time considering but did the Jays really miss anyone of significance in that Marlins trade?

 

At the time, it was tough signing big name FA's in Toronto so I understand some of the reasoning behind it and to be honest it wasn't all that bad. Reyes had a 2.5 WAR in 93 games in 2013 and a 3.8 WAR in 2014. Completely fell off in 2015, though AA traded for Tulo at the deadline. Mark Buehrle was really solid and durable here. Posted WARs of 2.2, 3.7 and 2 during his three seasons here. The X factor was Josh Johnson. If he was healthy, would have made the trade look better than it was. He was 28-years-old coming off a 3.3 WAR season and who had a 5.5 WAR and 6 WAR season in 2009 and 2010. Who would have thought Johnson was done after the 2013 season at the age of 29?

 

The RA Dickey trade was the one that hurt. It happened because of the Marlins trade unfortunately. Definitely was a weird trade by AA and probably was his worst. Wasn't a fan of acquiring Dickey at that high price tag, but he for the most part was durable and ate innings. 1.8 WAR in each season here from 2013-2015 and a 0.8 WAR in 2016. Still, wish the Jays had Thor in 2015 and 2016.

 

DeScalafani ended up being solid for several years. He would have helped! And he was free in 2015 and 2016, freeing up all the Buehrle payroll for someone else.

 

Handsome Jake was a very good bench player for a long time.

 

Hendo was a stud in 2014 and 2013 with Miami

 

Escobar was a political dump of course but he was good after leaving Toronto.

 

Even Hech was useful for a couple years while cheap and cost controlled.

 

And taking on the Reyes contract lead to a compounded bad decision with Tulo.

 

 

The ripple effects of this trade really cannot be overstated. It was a disaster and it's safe to say that he Blue Jays in basically every competitive window from 2013 to 2016, to the present window, would have been better off if the trade never happened!!!

[jaysblue]

DeScalafani ended up being solid for several years. He would have helped! And he was free in 2015 and 2016, freeing up all the Buehrle payroll for someone else.

 

Handsome Jake was a very good bench player for a long time.

 

Hendo was a stud in 2014 and 2013 with Miami

 

Escobar was a political dump of course but he was good after leaving Toronto.

 

Even Hech was useful for a couple years while cheap and cost controlled.

 

And taking on the Reyes contract lead to a compounded bad decision with Tulo.

 

 

The ripple effects of this trade really cannot be overstated. It was a disaster and it's safe to say that he Blue Jays in basically every competitive window from 2013 to 2016, to the present window, would have been better off if the trade never happened!!!

 

Yeah I don't think anyone is arguing those two trades weren't his best, but to define his tenure here by just those two deals is ridiculous. I think most of the decisions and moves by AA here were solid. He's the one who made baseball relevant again in the city of Toronto and across Canada.

 

As for the Marlins trade:

- Hech had a -1.3 WAR in 2013. He was solid in 2015 posting a 2.6 WAR. Otherwise, not really missed.

- Yunel Escobar like you said was traded for political reasons, so AA had no choice. Marlins moved him to Tampa after and he had a 3 WAR season. Maybe Yunel doesn't get traded if he wasn't acting like a jerk.

- Handsome Jake didn't do anything with the Marlins. He had solid years with the Astros as a 4th outfielder: 1.8 WAR, 1.2 WAR, 2.1 WAR seasons from 2015-2017.

- Henderson Alvarez had a 2 WAR and 2.5 WAR season in 2013 and 2014. Wouldn't have made a difference in 2015 and 2016 whatsoever.

- Anthony DeSclafani had solid years once he was traded to Cincy - 3.1 and 2.1 WAR seasons in 2015 and 2016. Has had a solid career as a mid-rotation/No.4 type starter.

 

I'm not losing sleep over any of those guys to be honest. All of them were easily replaceable. We're talking about a slap-hitting/utility player, a 4th outfielder, and a starter with low K rates. Yunel was solid in 2013, 2015 and decent in 2016. Anthony DeSclafani was the one who ended up having a solid career, and would have been useful in 2015 and 2016 but oh well.

[Terminator]

If you factor in the costs of the guys we acquired, it wouldn't have been worth it if all we did was take on those contracts and give them nothing in return.

 

The fact that we gave them multiple guys who weren't great, but did contribute at various points, makes the trade even worse.

[Laika]

Yeah I don't think anyone is arguing those two trades weren't his best, but to define his tenure here as the Blue Jays GM by just those two deals is ridiculous. I think most of the decisions and moves by AA here were solid. He's the one who made baseball relevant again in the city of Toronto and across Canada.

 

As for the Marlins trade:

- Hech had a -1.3 WAR in 2013. He was solid in 2015 posting a 2.6 WAR. Otherwise, not really missed.

- Yunel Escobar like you said was traded for political reasons, so AA had no choice. Marlins moved him to Tampa after and he had a 3 WAR season. Maybe Yunel doesn't get traded if he wasn't acting like a jerk.

- Handsome Jake didn't do anything with the Marlins. He had solid years with the Astros as a 4th outfielder: 1.8 WAR, 1.2 WAR, 2.1 WAR seasons from 2015-2017.

- Henderson Alvarez had a 2 WAR and 2.5 WAR season in 2013 and 2014. Wouldn't have made a difference in 2015 and 2016 whatsoever.

- Anthony DeSclafani had solid years once he was traded to Cincy - 3.1 and 2.1 WAR seasons in 2015 and 2016. Has had a solid career as a mid-rotation/No.4 type starter.

 

I'm not losing sleep over any of those guys to be honest. All of them were easily replaceable. We're talking about a slap-hitting/utility player, a 4th outfielder, and a starter with low K rates. Anthony DeSclafani was the one who ended up having a solid career, and would have been useful in 2015 and 2016 but oh well.

 

The ledger does not care how much sleep you get. It's all about WAR and money, and when you flick the abacus it says that deal was a complete abomination.

 

In hindsight, AA probably learned a lot from it, and the Dickey trade. The point isn't that these trades "defined his tenure" it's just that they played significantly into his objective record when Shapiro made the unpopular decision to part ways with him.

 

Like, when he left Toronto he had a mixed track record. He made some brilliant moves and put together good and exciting teams for two runs, but he also had some huge fumble trades and the organization's farm system + MLB situation was a bit ugly (s***** farm, old expensive players)

[connorp]

No one cares, connorp.

 

It was relevant to the discussion. Try not to think the worst all the time.

[thatoneguy]

It was relevant to the discussion. Try not to think the worst all the time.

 

That's kind of difficult with you, you have to admit.