Jays 2021/22 General Off-Season Discussion

[Eat My Shatkins]

1B - Vlad

SS - Bo

C - Jansen/Kirk

 

2B/3B - Biggio/Espinal/Smith/Moreno

 

If they're going to do that, I hope they at least shore up the pitching. Need to add another decent starter and one legit high leverage bullpen arm, plus some depth.

[WryNGinger]

I don't mind Espinal at 3rd OR Biggio at 2nd. I just don't want both. If I had to pick my first option it would be to leave Espinal at 3rd and upgrade 2nd base. They could still upgrade 3rd base around the deadline if Espinal/Moreno/Smith are not cutting it.

 

There is a big drop off in talent after starter #4. I think that's where I would spend my money to start. Ideally you move something along the lines of Biggio, Stripling and Grichuck to a team that has players they want to cut costs on those positions. The Jays would probably have to throw in some minor league talent as well.

 

Hope that made sense...it's still early here and I haven't had my coffee...

[The Iceman]

I know the Jays are still probably an IF short, but at least they have some internal options there.

 

The rotation still goes 1-4 and then.... hope. need another starter also. The internal options for starter in the minors are nothing to be thrilled with, and even Pearson is a prayer at this point. Stripling will get his reps for sure due to injury, but this rotation is still not ready at all.

 

I wouldn't mind a piggy back of Pearson and then Stripling in the 5 slot, would help keep Pearson's IP to a reasonable level.

 

Compared to what we have dragged out to the mound in the past the rotation is in its best shape in recent memory.

[John_Havok]

I wouldn't mind a piggy back of Pearson and then Stripling in the 5 slot, would help keep Pearson's IP to a reasonable level.

 

Compared to what we have dragged out to the mound in the past the rotation is in its best shape in recent memory.

 

That could very well be what happens, but then where's the depth that every team needs when injury hits? all they have left are minor leaguers with 0 big league experience at that point. Sure there will some last minute minor league signings with invite's to spring training, but I don't think that's what they team should be shooting for.

 

If anything, they should be looking to add at least 1 big league arm, with Pearson starting the year at AAA (along with Logue and Francis), in his last option year to get stretched out, and he be the first man up when injury hits, assuming his health and command are good. Kay and Hatch are probably also 5th man rotation options but to me it would be better if they were the depth, not the 1st option.

 

I think Hatch still has options, but Kay might be out as he's been up and down for 3 seasons. Kay might have the inside track on #5 as it stands right now and that's probably not ideal.

Edited December 1, 2021 by John_Havok

[wamco]

K sucks A

[TwistedLogic]

[The Cats Ass]

According to fangraphs the Jays are sitting around $161,000,000 payroll right now with arb estimates. Vladdy's estimate seems low too at only $7.9 million.

 

Looking at what...another $15-20 million left to spend if the right players agree to come to the Jays?

 

At the beginning of the off-season they mentioned 180M as a number for their payroll. Payroll is only at 140M. Atkins could probably add another 40M. Now they may not spend all the 40M this offseason, they may hold some back to upgrade in-season.

[glory]

I completely forgot Trent Thornton existed, and he was somehow tendered. Why? I mean he's only projected to make about $900k, but he's been pretty bad. I guess they are banking on his high spin rates turning into something eventually.

[Daniel Labude]

I completely forgot Trent Thornton existed, and he was somehow tendered. Why? I mean he's only projected to make about $900k, but he's been pretty bad. I guess they are banking on his high spin rates turning into something eventually.

 

Just depth

[The Cats Ass]

I completely forgot Trent Thornton existed, and he was somehow tendered. Why? I mean he's only projected to make about $900k, but he's been pretty bad. I guess they are banking on his high spin rates turning into something eventually.

 

They might just want to see how he looks in spring training. They can still cut him before the season.

[Carlos Danger]

Wanted to give my two cents on this whole Espinal, Smith wait for Moreno at 3B debate.

 

I think this is a flawed plan and would not serve us well.

 

The fact is, we didn't make the playoffs last season. By one game, or whatever is not relevant. We are not going into the off season in a vacuum. The other teams in the division are going get better or they are getting very good SPs back from injury etc.

 

We need to improve the team, not just stay even. We had a Cy young award winner, a ROY candidate, a 2B who broke all our records on O and MVP candidates but we still did not make the playoffs.

 

Basically, with the Espinal/Smith/Moreno route you are not improving with the first two. Then you are putting a hell of a lot of eggs into the basket of a guy who has zero MLB ABs... The list, is long, very long of guys who tore up the minors and then took a long time to adjust at the MLB level or never did.

 

3B/2b is not the only reason we did not make the playoffs. However, in regards to improving the overall team, along with other moves. It seems obvious to me we need to go outside the org with at least a short term solution until we know what we really have in Moreno. I do not believe any of our internal options in the IF at this moment or even this season will make the team better than last year.

[Spanky99]

Eduardo Escobar was a good fit here... F U Mets!

[TwistedLogic]

Safe to say there likely isn't more Jays news coming until after the lockout. Can't imagine it's feasible for them to sign someone and still have them flown out for a physical in time before the midnight deadline.

 

Only way anything like that happens is if something is already in the works and it just hasn't been discovered by a reporter yet, which seems unlikely.

[John_Havok]

Wanted to give my two cents on this whole Espinal, Smith wait for Moreno at 3B debate.

 

I think this is a flawed plan and would not serve us well.

 

The fact is, we didn't make the playoffs last season. By one game, or whatever is not relevant. We are not going into the off season in a vacuum. The other teams in the division are going get better or they are getting very good SPs back from injury etc.

 

We need to improve the team, not just stay even. We had a Cy young award winner, a ROY candidate, a 2B who broke all our records on O and MVP candidates but we still did not make the playoffs.

 

Basically, with the Espinal/Smith/Moreno route you are not improving with the first two. Then you are putting a hell of a lot of eggs into the basket of a guy who has zero MLB ABs... The list, is long, very long of guys who tore up the minors and then took a long time to adjust at the MLB level or never did.

 

3B/2b is not the only reason we did not make the playoffs. However, in regards to improving the overall team, along with other moves. It seems obvious to me we need to go outside the org with at least a short term solution until we know what we really have in Moreno. I do not believe any of our internal options in the IF at this moment or even this season will make the team better than last year.

 

Espinal and smith should not be starters, whoever advocates as such is kinda... nutty. Espinal is a bench guy, everything you want in your bench IF backup. Defensive versatility, actually good at each position, and doesn't suck with the bat. 0 power, but has a good eye and doesn't embarrass himself. Smith is AAA depth that comes up in case of injury for now, but clearly they hope he can still take another step forward.

 

Who is advocating for these guys to be starters?

[InsideThePark]

According to fangraphs the Jays are sitting around $161,000,000 payroll right now with arb estimates. Vladdy's estimate seems low too at only $7.9 million.

 

Looking at what...another $15-20 million left to spend if the right players agree to come to the Jays?

 

I don't know what "Estimated player benefits to be paid" that goes up by exactly 500k every year is. But I'm pretty sure it's not included in the team payroll estimates that usually get tossed out there. We should be in the 140 range.

[Spanky99]

Espinal and smith should not be starters, whoever advocates as such is kinda... nutty. Espinal is a bench guy, everything you want in your bench IF backup. Defensive versatility, actually good at each position, and doesn't suck with the bat. 0 power, but has a good eye and doesn't embarrass himself. Smith is AAA depth that comes up in case of injury for now, but clearly they hope he can still take another step forward.

 

Who is advocating for these guys to be starters?

 

There's a few.

[Carlos Danger]

Espinal and smith should not be starters, whoever advocates as such is kinda... nutty. Espinal is a bench guy, everything you want in your bench IF backup. Defensive versatility, actually good at each position, and doesn't suck with the bat. 0 power, but has a good eye and doesn't embarrass himself. Smith is AAA depth that comes up in case of injury for now, but clearly they hope he can still take another step forward.

 

Who is advocating for these guys to be starters?

 

There are a number of posts advocating we get by with Espinal/Smith until Moreno comes up and then we go with him at 3b for the 2022 season.

[Spanky99]

I don't know what "Estimated player benefits to be paid" that goes up by exactly 500k every year is. But I'm pretty sure it's not included in the team payroll estimates that usually get tossed out there. We should be in the 140 range.

 

I haven't really paid attention, but last I heard it's 134M. IDK

[Jimcanuck]

There are a number of posts advocating we get by with Espinal/Smith until Moreno comes up and then we go with him at 3b for the 2022 season.

 

Its a bit more nuanced than that. The ones I have seen, that unless a Bryant, Chapman, JD or some clear upgrade like that is available, there is no point in paying someone marginally better, but to use Espinal/Biggio/Smith initially and bet on Moreno being the real deal. And put that money elsewhere.

 

It's about optimizing return on investment.

 

Also, wrt Kikuchi, if he turned down $13M from the Mariners, that doesn't necessarily mean he will turn down $13M from the Jays. Sometimes a player wants a change or doesn't like the org.

[John_Havok]

There are a number of posts advocating we get by with Espinal/Smith until Moreno comes up and then we go with him at 3b for the 2022 season.

 

THat should be plan Z. PLan A should be get a half-decent 3b on something very short term with a focus on defense, give Biggio his last long look at 2b to see if the bat comes around or not and then cut bait if needed, and at THAT time, see what's out there for 2b while Espinal fills in the meantime.

 

Injuries will happen of course, but 3b is the clear priority over 2b IMO

[The_DH]

THat should be plan Z. PLan A should be get a half-decent 3b on something very short term with a focus on defense, give Biggio his last long look at 2b to see if the bat comes around or not and then cut bait if needed, and at THAT time, see what's out there for 2b while Espinal fills in the meantime.

 

Injuries will happen of course, but 3b is the clear priority over 2b IMO

 

This sounds like a good plan. Along with a focus on defence should be some concentration on balancing the lineup a bit.

[Spanky99]

THat should be plan Z. PLan A should be get a half-decent 3b on something very short term with a focus on defense, give Biggio his last long look at 2b to see if the bat comes around or not and then cut bait if needed, and at THAT time, see what's out there for 2b while Espinal fills in the meantime.

 

Injuries will happen of course, but 3b is the clear priority over 2b IMO

 

Sounds like Kyle Seager.

[Jimcanuck]

Sounds like Kyle Seager.

 

Probably where the line is, anyone worse and forget it, go with epy, big, smitty, and gabe.

[Spanky99]

Probably where the line is, anyone worse and forget it, go with epy, big, smitty, and gabe.

 

Obviously, looks like Bryant, trade or Seager as a stop gap, could be worse. Not for a second do I think Atkins stands pat on that issue.

[Spanky99]

Its a bit more nuanced than that. The ones I have seen, that unless a Bryant, Chapman, JD or some clear upgrade like that is available, there is no point in paying someone marginally better, but to use Espinal/Biggio/Smith initially and bet on Moreno being the real deal. And put that money elsewhere.

 

It's about optimizing return on investment.

 

Also, wrt Kikuchi, if he turned down $13M from the Mariners, that doesn't necessarily mean he will turn down $13M from the Jays. Sometimes a player wants a change or doesn't like the org.

 

The former is incorrect, I've read plenty of you people saying skip it... MORENO!!! I'd like Kikuchi at 2/25

[mellowgold]

I honestly think they go and get Ramirez. But I think they might wait for clarity on the potential lockout.

Trading top prospects for two years of JRam is one thing, but if worse comes to worse and we lose an entire season (would anyone really be totally shocked?) and suddenly you're trading these guys for only one year of control, the value looks completely different.

[Spanky99]

I honestly think they go and get Ramirez. But I think they might wait for clarity on the potential lockout.

Trading top prospects for two years of JRam is one thing, but if worse comes to worse and we lose an entire season (would anyone really be totally shocked?) and suddenly you're trading these guys for only one year of control, the value looks completely different.

 

Meh, I doubt very much that either happen, seeing as baseball will be locked out at midnight.

[gruber92]

If the prospect capital to obtain Ramirez for 2 years is the same as being able to acquire K.Marte for 3 years, I'd be inclined to go with Marte.

 

I think Cleveland doesn't do the deal without Moreno involved, where Arizona may bite.

[John_Havok]

If the prospect capital to obtain Ramirez for 2 years is the same as being able to acquire K.Marte for 3 years, I'd be inclined to go with Marte.

 

I think Cleveland doesn't do the deal without Moreno involved, where Arizona may bite.

 

Yeah, a lot can change in 6 months. Apparently the Jays were hard after Ramirez at the deadline and Cleveland loves Kirk. So maybe there's still a deal there without Moreno now that it's only 2 years of control vs 2.5.

[mellowgold]

Meh, I doubt very much that either happen, seeing as baseball will be locked out at midnight.

 

That's pretty much my entire point. You won't see them swing for the fences until the labour dispute is settled.