Jays 2021/22 General Off-Season Discussion

[mellowgold]

If the prospect capital to obtain Ramirez for 2 years is the same as being able to acquire K.Marte for 3 years, I'd be inclined to go with Marte.

 

I think Cleveland doesn't do the deal without Moreno involved, where Arizona may bite.

 

Nah I'm sure we can put together an enticing enough package without including Moreno. The question is how many and which of those other guys will it take.

[Spanky99]

That's pretty much my entire point. You won't see them swing for the fences until the labour dispute is settled.

That's not what you said, though.

 

See...

 

I honestly think they go and get Ramirez. But I think they might wait for clarity on the potential lockout.

Trading top prospects for two years of JRam is one thing, but if worse comes to worse and we lose an entire season (would anyone really be totally shocked?) and suddenly you're trading these guys for only one year of control, the value looks completely different.

 

It's not a potential, it's happening tonight.

[gruber92]

Nah I'm sure we can put together an enticing enough package without including Moreno. The question is how many and which of those other guys will it take.

 

It's scary on how many prospects it will take without Moreno involved. If we do land Ramirez, what are the chances of extending him with Vladdy and Bo extensions? Silver lining is that Ryu and Grichuk will be off the books in 2 years. Teo will be also, but his bat needs to be replaced if we don't extend/sign him. I guess we can afford to lose Teo if we extend Ramirez, especially if Moreno comes as advertised.

[gruber92]

That's not what you said, though.

 

See...

 

I think he meant don't make a blockbuster trade until there's a new CBA.

[Spanky99]

I think he meant don't make a blockbuster trade until there's a new CBA.

 

Thanks gruber, what would I do without you.

[John_Havok]

It's scary on how many prospects it will take without Moreno involved. If we do land Ramirez, what are the chances of extending him with Vladdy and Bo extensions? Silver lining is that Ryu and Grichuk will be off the books in 2 years. Teo will be also, but his bat needs to be replaced if we don't extend/sign him. I guess we can afford to lose Teo if we extend Ramirez, especially if Moreno comes as advertised.

 

I guess the perfect scenario there would be that Ramirez arrives here for 2 seasons via trade, Vlad and Bo both get extensions done in the meantime, and whatever 3B prospect that didn't get traded in the Ramirez deal takes over 3B at that point. There's a lot of assumptions made in my statement though like the Jays and both those players actually agree on long term extensions that make sense.

 

Right now the long term core of the team is obviously Bo, Vlad, Springer, Berrios, Gausman. 3 are already locked up with guaranteed contracts, 2 need (IMO) to be. That's about as many guys as you can realistically afford to be big money deals before things get out of control in a hurry.

 

Extending Ramirez in that scenario likely wouldn't be feasible unless both Vlad and Bo get bent over like Acuna and Albies.

[Jonn]

Obviously, looks like Bryant, trade or Seager as a stop gap, could be worse. Not for a second do I think Atkins stands pat on that issue.

 

This team is past stop gaps. They are either going to make a big play in free agency or make it in the trade market.

[Spanky99]

This team is past stop gaps. They are either going to make a big play in free agency or make it in the trade market.

 

I believe you're correct Jonn, I just mentioned that. lol

[polar bear]

There's a few.

 

Espinal is going to make some look foolish.

[Spanky99]

Espinal is going to make some look foolish.

 

Hang your hat on it, I said good day!

[mellowgold]

That's not what you said, though.

 

See...

 

 

 

It's not a potential, it's happening tonight.

 

 

You're completely missing the point. Maybe I should have said looming instead of potential. But the point is that I think they want to make a big swing but they want to wait until the dust clears from this stoppage.

[Spanky99]

You're completely missing the point. Maybe I should have said looming instead of potential. But the point is that I think they want to make a big swing but they want to wait until the dust clears from this stoppage.

 

That makes sense, your first point, didn't.

[mellowgold]

It made sense. Until a lockout happens, it is only a potential lockout, no matter how certain it may be.

[John_Havok]

It made sense. Until a lockout happens, it is only a potential lockout, no matter how certain it may be.

 

Lockout starts tomorrow. What remains to be seen is whether it goes on long enough to impact Spring Training or season games. Really the only thing players miss out on with a lockout over the winter is access to team training facilities. However, most large agents will have their own training facilities (BOras for example has his own) or they will just work out at home, or some university.

[Jays24]

This team is past stop gaps. They are either going to make a big play in free agency or make it in the trade market.

 

Exactly... we are going for the world series from the start this year. No more kid gloves with half a season of Biggio at 3B or starting the season with a piss poor bullpen.

 

While you can debate the overly patient approach, those inactions cost us a chance to make the playoffs and possibly win a world series last year.

 

So for this season, we're not going to have mediocre stop gaps like Smith starting while we wait for Moreno. It's go time baby lol.

[Spanky99]

It made sense. Until a lockout happens, it is only a potential lockout, no matter how certain it may be.

 

Oh...

[John_Havok]

So for this season, we're not going to have mediocre stop gaps like Smith starting while we wait for Moreno. It's go time baby lol.

 

Yeah but you also don't want to pave over the position you want the kid to play either with someone on a big money multi-year deal. A stopgap would be someone with good quality D, not an embarrassing bat, and maybe 1-2 year deal that you can either keep on the bench once Moreno comes up (assuming he's truly ready for 3b this season... which is honestly something I doubt), or deal to try and fill some other need.

[glory]

This team is past stop gaps. They are either going to make a big play in free agency or make it in the trade market.

 

Agreed. Kyle Seager is a 2017-18 Atkins move. Not a 2020-21 Atkins move. I think a Ramirez trade happens after the lockout. Otherwise I am stumped on which infielder they bring in, but I don't think it's going to be a 1-2 WAR vetrin placeholder.

[John_Havok]

This sucks for the Jays as they recently built a world class training facility. I wonder if this would affect the minor league players at all? I suspect they should be able to cintinu using the facility as they are not yet members of the MLBPA.

 

Good point. Given that anyone not on the 40 man roster wouldn't be in the union, I would expect this doesn't impact them.

[Jays24]

Yeah but you also don't want to pave over the position you want the kid to play either with someone on a big money multi-year deal. A stopgap would be someone with good quality D, not an embarrassing bat, and maybe 1-2 year deal that you can either keep on the bench once Moreno comes up (assuming he's truly ready for 3b this season... which is honestly something I doubt), or deal to try and fill some other need.

 

I think we should stop placing so much importance on prospects contributing to the big club until they've actually shown something there. People were including Pearson as part of their starting rotation last year and we all know how that worked out. It's fine to do that when you're rebuilding and not looking to win a world series but we've past that stage.

 

When and if Moreno is THAT good, we can figure it out at that point. Until then, you don't downgrade from Semien to Smith without realizing you just got MUCH worse. Ideally we fill 3B and let Biggio/Espinal platoon 2B.

[mellowgold]

Biggio/Espinal has the chance to be a really really good platoon. I don't think 5-6 WAR is out of the question if everything goes right. Heck, Espinal had 2.2 himself last year in fewer than half a year's worth of plate appearances.

[John_Havok]

I think we should stop placing so much importance on prospects contributing to the big club until they've actually shown something there. People were including Pearson as part of their starting rotation last year and we all know how that worked out. It's fine to do that when you're rebuilding and not looking to win a world series but we've past that stage.

 

When and if Moreno is THAT good, we can figure it out at that point. Until then, you don't downgrade from Semien to Smith without realizing you just got MUCH worse. Ideally we fill 3B and let Biggio/Espinal platoon 2B.

 

That's pretty much what I just said. You can't count on Moreno to be the 3b of the future, but you also shouldn't make that position impossible for him to step into if he shows he is ready. I don't have the information available to make that decision, I can only guess the Jays are hoping to have the option of him at 3b, or they wouldn't have asked his Arizona fall league team to play him there.

[Ryu In My House]

I had sort of written off Kyle Seager as a move Shatkins would have made 2-3 years ago, but the more I think about it the more I like it.

 

He'd be cheap, and after the Jays sign 1-2 more bullpen arms, that would be good. He's good for ~ 2.5+ WAR on this team, pretty decent offense and defense, and we get that leftie bat 5th or 6th in the order. And he wouldn't be a long contract so he wouldn't block any of the kids. And of course, no QO.

 

What sort of money would he be looking for?

[Stangstag]

Biggio/Espinal has the chance to be a really really good platoon. I don't think 5-6 WAR is out of the question if everything goes right. Heck, Espinal had 2.2 himself last year in fewer than half a year's worth of plate appearances.

 

Bruh

[THANOS]

That's pretty much what I just said. You can't count on Moreno to be the 3b of the future, but you also shouldn't make that position impossible for him to step into if he shows he is ready. I don't have the information available to make that decision, I can only guess the Jays are hoping to have the option of him at 3b, or they wouldn't have asked his Arizona fall league team to play him there.

 

Can Bryant or Ramirez play 2B? Or maybe they could have Moreno try out at 2B if they get 1 of them and stick them at 3B.

[Ryu In My House]

Agreed. Kyle Seager is a 2017-18 Atkins move. Not a 2020-21 Atkins move. I think a Ramirez trade happens after the lockout. Otherwise I am stumped on which infielder they bring in, but I don't think it's going to be a 1-2 WAR vetrin placeholder.

 

I think he's be > 2.5 and he's a leftie with power. I would then go after Ramirez at the trade deadline or offseason. He will cost less. I don't want to part with 3-4 solid prospects for Ramirez, but I wouldn't be upset if they did, either. The difference between those two players may only be 2 or 3 WAR, which of course this last year would have meant a playoff spot. Ugh. Being a GM would be incredibly tough.

[Stangstag]

I think we should stop placing so much importance on prospects contributing to the big club until they've actually shown something there. People were including Pearson as part of their starting rotation last year and we all know how that worked out. It's fine to do that when you're rebuilding and not looking to win a world series but we've past that stage.

 

When and if Moreno is THAT good, we can figure it out at that point. Until then, you don't downgrade from Semien to Smith without realizing you just got MUCH worse. Ideally we fill 3B and let Biggio/Espinal platoon 2B.

 

The Cardinals and Rays (and others) have gone into a new season with a rookie penciled in for a starting role numerous times. They are considered to be some of the most solid franchises in the sport.

 

You don’t need an all-star caliber player at every position to compete.

 

I agree Smith shouldn’t be given the starting job, but if Moreno was ready for the bigs it wouldn’t be egregious to roll with him as the main 3B.

 

I think Seager is a great option to hold 3B for a year or two until one of Groshans/Moreno becomes the clear front runner to take over. Also gives Biggio/Espinal a year at 2B to evaluate their usefulness going forward.

[Daniel Labude]

Can Bryant or Ramirez play 2B? Or maybe they could have Moreno try out at 2B if they get 1 of them and stick them at 3B.

 

Bryant should be able to

[Stangstag]

I had sort of written off Kyle Seager as a move Shatkins would have made 2-3 years ago, but the more I think about it the more I like it.

 

He'd be cheap, and after the Jays sign 1-2 more bullpen arms, that would be good. He's good for ~ 2.5+ WAR on this team, pretty decent offense and defense, and we get that leftie bat 5th or 6th in the order. And he wouldn't be a long contract so he wouldn't block any of the kids. And of course, no QO.

 

What sort of money would he be looking for?

 

I would guess something like 2 years for 20-25 mil

[Stangstag]

Can Bryant or Ramirez play 2B? Or maybe they could have Moreno try out at 2B if they get 1 of them and stick them at 3B.

 

Ramirez played 2B in the past