2023 Post-Mortem Thread

[Pinkfloid]

Lost a lot of respect for the organization this week. First, the slap in the face to Jay Jackson on the last day of the season. Second, following the analytics SO CLOSELY today pulling Berrios, but not following them AT ALL yesterday by even pitching Gausman. Who is making these decisions??

 

Speaking of Berrios, what a ******** thing to do to your horse who came back from a bad year last year to fully resurrect himself this season. The biggest game in his life against his former team, in a do-or-die situation, with all his family and friends invited to the game, AND in a situation where he was absolutely shoving. You pull the guy after 47 pitches?!??! These brain-dead analytic khaki clowns may have soured so many current and potential future players with this horseshit.

 

UGLY season with an even uglier end. Gross.

[TheHurl]

You are Rays fan....Didn't the whole MLB learn from the Snell debacle??

 

Didn't Snell give up a hit to a .180 hitter. That was the right decision too. They would have been down 4 if he stayed in. Same can be said with Berrios. Despite 1000s of scenarios every year of pitchers going from having their best stuff to getting beat around fans assume what happened earlier in the game is going to continue every time. What I am saying is that the Jays Game Plan led to a 2 run game. The game plan of leaving Berrios in is an unknown. The 2 run scenario has to lead to wins...the bats sucked. That is your story

[Spanky__99]

This is why these decisions are probably bad IMO and it's what the nerds aren't putting in their models

 

If you make a jarring and unexpected decision it might f*** up the psyche of your own players

 

Also, the more obvious one is why assume Kikuchi would be great in an unfamiliar role...

 

I've seen 5 different players on MLBN say the same since the game ended, there's a disconnect and doesn't sit right with the clubhouse, makes a great point.

[MikeM3]

Listen a new school team picks up Aaron Hicks or Ohearn from the scrap heap bc they somehow like his profile then he hits dead pull shots for them as soon as he puts the bird on his chest. Whatever the f*** those nerds are feeding those guys info wise is what we need.

 

We have super talented hitters regressing. Guillermo is not feeding these guys the same nerd stuff

 

Atkins is not a nerd. He's way behind

[TheHurl]

Fire the f***ing nerds. Every last one of them. I'm not saying a team doesn't need nerds but the Jays need better ones than the ones they currently have

 

This I can buy into. They need more nerdier nerds. I think it is very posible that Atkins isn't the right guy for the job. Although I loved the moves this season. In the end the F.O. put the team into luxury tax territory and won 2 less games. That might be a firing offense.

[Masterbather]

The playoffs by the way, are about to get more difficult to make. Yankees and Red Sox are not going to lay down, the other teams that were in it this year will continue to be in it next year, the Blue Jays might have the biggest question marks of anyone. I also expect Cleveland to take a step forward in that central division and perhaps compete for a wildcard.

 

I find it very difficult to believe this team will be able to scrounge something together given the near bare farm system and given their holes that sees them making the playoffs next year. Every other team that made it has star talent. We have the most overrated player in the game as our core piece. We're easily the most vulnerable of the AL teams. That's not end of the season disappointment speaking, that's objective reality.

[Masterbather]

This I can buy into. They need more nerdier nerds. I think it is very posible that Atkins isn't the right guy for the job. Although I loved the moves this season. In the end the F.O. put the team into luxury tax territory and won 2 less games. That might be a firing offense.

 

If you loved the moves that were made, and if you consider yourself a nerd, we need far fewer nerds. Because anyone with a f***ing brain knew that the moves that were made would make this team worse.

[Spanky__99]

Why did the Jays sign Berrios to a $130M extension? Just to pitch 3 innings in a Postseason game?

 

I agree, the outcome wasn't as bad as it was. Still just down 2-0 and had opportunities to tie the game or take the lead. Regardless, we're only in the 4th inning with a runner on first base in a 0-0 game. It's not like this was the 6th or 7th inning or heck wasn't like Berrios was laboring till that point in the game. Analytics have their place, but sometimes overthinking and overmanaging is a bit too much. Common sense has to come into play.

 

As well, someone made a comment about the team morale after. You had Merrifield post game calling out that decision, supposedly Pete Walker was furious and I'm sure other players as well. There is a human element to this game. Players and pitchers aren't all robots and computers. Berrios didn't do anything to warrant him being pulled in the 4th inning.

 

Preach!

[Spanky__99]

You really just don't have any clue what you are talking about.

 

The offense was bad, but it was due to underperformance not due to "sacrificing too much offense."

 

The guys Atkins acquired hit or were at least expected to.

-KK had a 104 wRC+.

-Belt was 138 wRC+.

-You act like acquiring Varsho was a purely defensive run prevention move but he had a 107 wRC+ last year and the thought was that he would improve heading into his age 26 season. He's one of the prime underachievers.

 

Then look at who we gave up:

-Teoscar had a 105 wRC+ and 1.7 WAR. Was not missed.

-Gurriel had a 106 wRC+ and 2.1 WAR.

-Gabriel Moreno had 103 wRC+ and 1.7 WAR.

 

So it's not like we shipped out a ton of offense and didn't replace it. All of the above doesn't factor in that we also acquired Swanson who is a good setup man with 3 years of control. Yeah the Varsho move looks like crap now but it wasn't an intentional downgrade of the offense. He projected to hit well but he just didn't do it.

 

Which leads me to my point which is that the real issue is underperformance. The analytics aren't translating to on field production. Vlad, Springer, Varsho, Whit, Kirk and Espinal all severely underperformed this year.

 

So you are just dead wrong. The offense didn't suck because we "sacrificed that much offense." We sucked because we had multiple guys underperform.

 

Preach! lol

[TheHurl]

If you loved the moves that were made, and if you consider yourself a nerd, we need far fewer nerds. Because anyone with a f***ing brain knew that the moves that were made would make this team worse.

 

I am far from a nerd. I am dumb as s***, and multiple concussions are making me dumber. I am open to learning which is what I do about front offices, i surround my self with people much smarter than me and learn

[Carlos Danger]

Didn't Snell give up a hit to a .180 hitter. That was the right decision too. They would have been down 4 if he stayed in. Same can be said with Berrios. Despite 1000s of scenarios every year of pitchers going from having their best stuff to getting beat around fans assume what happened earlier in the game is going to continue every time. What I am saying is that the Jays Game Plan led to a 2 run game. The game plan of leaving Berrios in is an unknown. The 2 run scenario has to lead to wins...the bats sucked. That is your story

 

 

The Rays were up 1-0 and he had given up two hits with 9Ks and had a low pitch count. The decision to pull him f***ed him up after.

 

https://syndication.bleacherreport.com/amp/10000205-blake-snell-says-he-was-lost-after-getting-pulled-in-game-6-of-world-series-by-rays.amp.html

[Spanky__99]

Didn't Snell give up a hit to a .180 hitter. That was the right decision too. They would have been down 4 if he stayed in. Same can be said with Berrios. Despite 1000s of scenarios every year of pitchers going from having their best stuff to getting beat around fans assume what happened earlier in the game is going to continue every time. What I am saying is that the Jays Game Plan led to a 2 run game. The game plan of leaving Berrios in is an unknown. The 2 run scenario has to lead to wins...the bats sucked. That is your story

 

Offense was terrible, 1 god damned run, woof!

[TheHurl]

The Rays were up 1-0 and he had given up two hits with 9Ks and had a low pitch count. The decision to pull him f***ed him up after.

 

https://syndication.bleacherreport.com/amp/10000205-blake-snell-says-he-was-lost-after-getting-pulled-in-game-6-of-world-series-by-rays.amp.html

 

He along with every other player was offered sabr courses. You know who was the only player who fought that front office on everything. It f***ed him up because his teammates understood things and he didn't

[Carlos Danger]

He was fine actually, two weak hits, the pitching staff as a whole was not the problem. They just weren't good enough to carry this putrid offense because they don't score enough runs.

 

He walked a guy also. 1.2 IP 3 hits and a BB. Not great.

[Carlos Danger]

He along with every other player was offered sabr courses. You know who was the only player who fought that front office on everything. It f***ed him up because his teammates understood things and he didn't

 

How did that decision work out for the Rays?

 

Did you watch the video with him and C.C Sabathia in the same link?

[TheHurl]

How did that decision work out for the Rays?

 

Did you watch the video with him and C.C Sabathia in the same link?

 

I did not I may later. Rays lost the game. But it wasn't because Snell didn't face Betts for a 3rd time. Just like the Jays didn't lose because Berrios was pulled

[Stangstag]

I still can’t believe the Jays got f***ing swept in the 1st round again.

 

What a wasted year yet again

[L54]

How many Championships do the Rays have to show for their brilliance? Why are we trying to be the Rays?

[jaysthebest]

There were a few people in here who expected the Jays to get swept after watching their offense against great pitching during the regular season...

 

This wc series was kind of a repeat of the Yankees series where the team got neutralized by Cole and King. We would have won the series if we faced the Rays.

[Masterbather]

I am far from a nerd. I am dumb as s***, and multiple concussions are making me dumber. I am open to learning which is what I do about front offices, i surround my self with people much smarter than me and learn

Very humble and enlightened response.

[Terminator]

How many Championships do the Rays have to show for their brilliance? Why are we trying to be the Rays?

 

Lol come on. If you took the Rays model and applied it to our payroll you end up with something close to the Dodgers.

[John_Havok]

Lol come on. If you took the Rays model and applied it to our payroll you end up with something close to the Dodgers.

 

Its fine to try and put someone else's model into place, but to do so you need to have the personnel too. It's easy to try and identify undervalued guys, its another thing entirely to know what underlying issues are causing that player to be undervalued and then take the right steps to fix the issues.

 

The philosophy is easy to duplicate but the execution is not.

[Terminator]

Its fine to try and put someone else's model into place, but to do so you need to have the personnel too. It's easy to try and identify undervalued guys, its another thing entirely to know what underlying issues are causing that player to be undervalued and then take the right steps to fix the issues.

 

The philosophy is easy to duplicate but the execution is not.

 

ok thanks

[Spanky__99]

ok thanks

 

lol

[James Key]

This team really lost momentum when they let Alex Anthopoulous go.

AA said you win with power and pitching. Jays traded their power and didn’t replace it. The pitching was great but a lot of good it is to hold a team to 5 runs in 18 innings when you score one time. We saw it all year. All the double plays. All the lack of an ability to hit good pitching. The lack of power. The approach was miserable and the team regressed offensively. And the abhorrent baserunning. Too many problems with this team. Brandon Hyde for Baltimore has his guys playing hard every AB offense and defence. That why those guys, when able to graduate talent , gelled. Their culture is far superior. When have the jays won the Al east 2015? We had power and good pitching. Leaving yourself to the vulnerable wildcard best of two is a precarious way to live. Baserunning and the hitting philosophy needs to improve. We need our power back.

 

Meanwhile AA has a ws ring, orchestrated our best showing in the playoffs since 93 in 2016/2017 and has the arguable best team in the game looking like they are going on another deep run. Shapiro hasn’t won anything but somehow he’s gonna lead this team to the promise land as president? Atkins has shown his hand to be very middling with his moves. Decent fA signings at starting pitcher. But he hasn’t really won many trades. Merrifield? Hicks? Varshow? Berrios?

 

Atkins goes, Schneider goes, Martinez goes, belt goes, Kk goes, hicks goes , ryu goes, Chapman goes.

 

The first two may not happen but the team is gonna look mighty different next year sadly this years great pitching and good defence is marred.

[JaysAllMighty]

Vladdy being dumb AGAIN

 

[TheHurl]

How many Championships do the Rays have to show for their brilliance? Why are we trying to be the Rays?

 

Two American League Championship Titles. You want to be the Rays with a payroll. Which would make you the Dodgers

[Laika]

Guerrero made like a dozen bone headed mistakes on the bases this year and I don't think he was benched once.

[Pendleton]

So that didn't go well

[jaysblue]

Im not sold on either of those statements. I guess we’ll see next year.

 

We'll see. Hopefully Springer does bounce back and provide some more pop and Kirk also bounces back offensively. I like Kirk behind the plate, and if you get his bat going again, even better!

 

Probably can't trade Springer anyways given his contract and age now. Kirk's trade value is at its lowest. So hope they both bounce back in 2024. I'll give Kirk a mulligan on this season since he's still young. Hope he comes into camp in the best shape of his life next spring!

Edited October 5, 2023 by jaysblue