General Blue Jays Discussion Thread (2024)

[jaysblue]

So you agree that this is the darkest days of the franchise since 1988? Three 90~ win seasons and three post season appearances?

 

I dunno, I remember much darker days

 

I find it more sad and tragic that this management couldn't take advantage of the window they had with this core. They were spoon fed pretty much with talent and a core, and failed to capitalize and to take the next step.

 

Instead, they've been sitting on their hands the past two offseasons as lame ducks and keeping this team stuck in limbo.

[jaysblue]

No one here likes them and everyone wanted Atkins fired. You're arguing with straw men.

 

Brownie and Max enter the conversation now.

[jaysblue]

These guys have completely f***ed this team up.

 

If you want to hang your hat on 3 s***** wildcard spots without a win in an expanded playoffs where we papered over our drafting/development mistakes by jacking payroll through the roof well that's great. My grandmother could have built a playoff team with cheap Vlad and Bo and $230 million.

 

Haha the best post of the year!

[BigCecil]

The old Toronto Blue Jays order is changing with Mark Shapiro in charge

Mark Shapiro is in charge — of everything. That’s what he was hired to do and what he relishes. And that’s what brought him to town

 

John Lott - Nov 04, 2015

 

TORONTO – Mark Shapiro had to know he was making history. He signed on to do just that. But he probably had no idea that he is the first president and CEO of the Toronto Blue Jays to spend most of his day talking with the media about purely baseball decisions – trades, the farm system, free agents and the like.

 

Traditionally, the Blue Jays president doesn’t do that. He leaves it to his general manager – think Gillick, Ash, Ricciardi and Anthopoulos – to be the face of the front office for fans. The freshly retired Paul Beeston did it that way during his two long terms as president, as did those before him.

 

But for a franchise about to enter its 40th year, the old order is changing. Shapiro is in charge — of everything. That’s what he was hired to do and what he relishes.

And that’s what brought him to town, for his first day on the job, as the target of disillusioned, delusional fans who believe he ran the lately beloved GM Alex Anthopoulos out of town.

 

Shapiro denied that. He said he had hoped to “partner with” the departed GM. But as he spun smart and smooth and silver-tongued, he also made it clear that he is a baseball man, that he has high expectations for the baseball people in his employ, and that baseball decisions will require his stamp of approval.

He also made something else clear: He will weather the hero-villain narrative perpetuated in some quarters, focus on building on the “incredible foundation” that Anthopoulos built and caulk up the cracks in the farm system that last summer’s big trades created.

 

 

The Blue Jays, he said, have the pieces in place to win the World Series next year. His goal: to say that, with honesty, entering every season.

Shapiro intimated that he is no autocrat. He will build “an inclusive, collective culture,” as he did in Cleveland, first as GM and then president, he said. By all accounts, that description of his Cleveland years is no exaggeration.

 

A key component of his leadership credo is this: “Any energy spent on credit, any energy spent on blame, is inefficient. It’s wasted energy.”

That might also serve as a memo to those Jays fans tossing darts at his effigy, although saying so also might be wasted energy.

Then there was this: “A snapshot in time – even this snapshot in time – is just that. When you work in professional sports, it’s highly emotional. Any reaction to any moment in time usually leads to a bad decision, so you’re much better off taking an in-depth, broader look and perspective.”

 

Therein, Shapiro was certainly not addressing the fans, but it is a useful message nonetheless. He was talking about considering a new job in Toronto at a time the Jays were still playing footsie with .500, before the Anthopoulos trades that served as a catapult to the post-season. He has been in baseball since 1991; he knew how quickly things change, so he made no early judgments about what he would do with the team he inherited.

The Jays’ first half, and their playoff surge, were snapshots. Shapiro said he tries to keep both micro and macro in focus.

 

 

“We’ll have an obsessive focus on winning, and on building a strong farm system,” he said.

Those trades? Shapiro tried to sell the view that he liked them. He said he told Anthopoulos just that.

 

From afar, he admitted, maybe it appeared the GM gave up too much of the future to win now. But when he looked at what David Price and Troy Tulowitzki and Ben Revere did for the team, he said he told Anthopoulos: “Man, you were right. What an incredible trade.” (He didn’t say which one.)

 

Then, Shapiro said, he told Anthopoulos something else, something many have suggested was a rebuke, and perhaps that’s precisely what it was, or what Anthopoulos honestly believed it was. Shapiro said the Jays must start immediately to plug the holes left by trading 13 minor-league pitchers in less than a year.

Some called it a “scolding.” Shapiro framed it as a message about balance and the team’s long-term security.

“The short-term benefit of those trades is absolutely apparent and was tremendous. … At the same point, there are challenges that come with trading players and those challenges need to become part of a long-term strategy,” he said.

 

However Shapiro delivered that message to Anthopoulos – and his choice of words might well have been less politic in the moment – his unease over the long term is clear. The cupboard may not be bare, but the pickings right now are slim.

Anthopoulos seized the moment, and it gave the Jays and their fans a thrill they had not enjoyed in 22 seasons. Publicly, Shapiro applauded the moves and the results. He did not call it a Faustian bargain, but he might well have been thinking: if Price and Marco Estrada leave as free agents, it surely would be nice to have some rotation help ready at Triple-A. He looked, and saw none.

Shapiro said his talks with Anthopoulos over the past few weeks focused almost exclusively on baseball matters. Anthopoulos did not want to talk about his contract, but Shapiro said he hoped the GM would stay, and expected him to stay.

 

Ultimately, Anthopoulos said he was no longer a good “fit,” and quit. He refused to throw stones, praising Shapiro and ownership for treating him with respect. He left the rest to speculation, and the natural result was a narrative that cast him as Anthopoulos Scorned on the day he was named baseball’s top executive.

Shapiro could hear the thunder all the way to Cleveland. He is no stranger to such derision. In 2002, his first year as Cleveland’s GM, he started to tear down a team that had gone to the playoffs six times in seven years (without winning a World Series.) He traded his ace, Bartolo Colon – yes, the same Bartolo Colon who pitched for the Mets in this year’s World Series – to the Montreal Expos for four young players. Three were named Cliff Lee, Brandon Phillips and Grady Sizemore, who went on to perform with some distinction.

 

In the moment, Cleveland fans were not amused. But Shapiro lacked the payroll to keep his stars and knew he had to step back to move forward.

“There was some pretty intense distaste and there were some pretty strong feelings,” Shapiro recalled. “I never look at it as, what does it mean for me? I always look at it as, is it the right thing to do, and how are you going to manage through it? How are you going to stay strong, stay focused, stay resolute and continue to get the job done?”

As for the recent outcry over the departure of Anthopoulos, Shapiro replied: “I didn’t have any say in what created the circumstance, but it’s still the same response.”

He will manage through it.

 

So, it appears, will John Gibbons. Shapiro said he liked the way Gibbons, a close friend of Anthopoulos, managed the Jays in 2015. So the man they call Gibby – Shapiro repeatedly called him John – will be back. Under the unorthodox terms of his contract, that means Gibbons is guaranteed a paycheque through 2017.

Another Anthopoulos confidante, Tony LaCava, will serve as interim GM. Shapiro knows LaCava well; in 2002, LaCava was a scout for Cleveland and advised Shapiro on that trade with Montreal, where LaCava had previously worked.

During his news conference, a reporter opened a door for Shapirio to say LaCava would be a leading candidate for the permanent GM job. Shapiro did not walk through. Too early to talk about that, he said, but naturally, he has every confidence in LaCava for the short term.

Last Thursday was the day for Anthopoulos to tell his story and deepen the mystery around it. An avalanche of speculation followed, much of it focusing on the alleged skulduggery of Shapiro and club owner Rogers Communications. The truth will likely never be known, because the truth in this story depends on the point of view of each party involved, and no single person knows all of it.

 

Monday gave Shapiro his turn. Like all others in positions of power, he bobbed and weaved at times, leaving much to the imagination. Overall, he acquitted himself well, making a polite but tenacious effort to put distance between him and the Anthopoulos fiasco.

The off-season, and spring training, and perhaps especially the start of next season, will determine how quickly that story will fade. But when he discussed his leadership philosophy, Shapiro may have unwittingly driven home another message for fans to ponder.

 

“I don’t believe in blacks and whites,” he said. “It’s all living in the greys.”

[glory]

I want Shatkins gone so it pains me to have to defend them here, but romanticizing Gord Ash and JP Ricciardi’s time, especially in contrast to 2020-24, is insane. The 2021 team won 91 games and finished 4th place in their own division. The 2022 team had the 3rd best record in the AL. The 2023 was the most frustrating offensive performance I’ve seen on a good team and they still won 89 games in a season where 14 MLB players alone had a higher WAR than Vlad and Bo combined. Yes they had to spend to compensate for their weaknesses, but whatever. They weren’t trading a borderline HOF with cash attached for Robert Person, or letting what should have been a franchise cornerstone go and reallocating that money to Erik Hanson, or replacing one of the greatest hitters in franchise history with the corpse of Corey Koskie. They’ve by all accounts been in on major free agents, and this FO is the only one that has ever gotten Rogers to spend like they should be spending.

 

I get wanting Shatkins gone, I’m in the same boat, they have overstayed their welcome and change is needed, but longing for the days of Ash and JP is a step too far.

[Delete_My_Account_Thanks]

I get wanting Shatkins gone, I’m in the same boat, they have overstayed their welcome and change is needed, but longing for the days of Ash and JP is a step too far.

 

No one is longing for the days of JP or Ash. Those times weren't great.

 

I'm simply saying this current regime is so bad that they are worse than those 2, who we have always used as a measuring stick as the worst GM's the Jays have had.

 

These guys are worse than them, we actually had more hope under them, which is so sad.

 

We haven't hit rock bottom yet. Wait until Ross extends Varsho...

[The_DH]

JPR we had super high expectations but he was a snake oil salesman. Ash was just a poor shadow of Gillick. Shapiro will go down as all talk and no results. Well, at least he prettied up the Dome.

[jaysblue]

JPR we had super high expectations but he was a snake oil salesman. Ash was just a poor shadow of Gillick. Shapiro will go down as all talk and no results. Well, at least he prettied up the Dome.

 

The casuals will be happy with the Corona Rooftop Patio and the Outfield District, sipping on $18 beers and vodka coolers!

[Delete_My_Account_Thanks]

The day Shatkins gets fired it's going to be a national holiday

[jaysblue]

Holy s*** give this man the mic

 

It's Festivus. He's airing his grievances on the BJMB! Perfect day to do it!

[Terminator]

I'm sorry but that's just not the case. I've read this board enough over the past year or so to know that some posters seemed willing to go through a wall for this front office.

 

A lot has changed, but those like jaysblue and jaysfan or whatever his/her name is have been calling out the front office the longest and took a lot of flak from certain posters. I don't want to start an argument with those posters who turned out to be wrong.

 

But max silver and Brownie are still defending this management.

 

And Max, you seem to remember things differently than me. Back then it was tough, but there was more hope and we had better players. And you are wrong about no playoffs under current playoff format.

 

in 1998 AND 1999 (under Ash I acknowledge) Jays would have won the wild card under the current format.

 

And in 2003 they would have tied for the final wild card spot.

 

2000 and 2006 they would have been 2 games out. 5 games out in 2007. 3 games out in 2010.

 

So I would argue we had more to cheer for in that era than you seem to remember. And doing all of that on a show string budget against the big bad Yankees and Red Sox. You act like they were a perennial last place team for 23 years.

 

These guys today have a way bigger budget. And 9 years. And it's never looked more hopeless than it does now.

 

Sorry to disagree Max, but I strongly disagree.

 

Holy s*** we have a jaysblue simp. The guy literally won LVP and you're simping for him. Unbelievable.

[Brownie19]

Holy s*** we have a jaysblue simp. The guy literally won LVP and you're simping for him. Unbelievable.

 

This place is going to resemble Facebook soon with these 3 making half the daily posts.

[glory]

No one is longing for the days of JP or Ash. Those times weren't great.

 

I'm simply saying this current regime is so bad that they are worse than those 2, who we have always used as a measuring stick as the worst GM's the Jays have had.

 

These guys are worse than them, we actually had more hope under them, which is so sad.

 

We haven't hit rock bottom yet. Wait until Ross extends Varsho...

 

If you thought the Jays under Ash and JP had more hope than a team that was seen (in hindsight wrongly) to be a possible World Series contender during this run (2022 in particular), then we will have to agree to disagree. Actual results favor Atkins, and pre-season hype (even though they never lived up to it) goes to Atkins, too. I mean, I'm not going to tell you that you were wrong to feel more hopeful during Ash/JP's time, if that's how you felt then that's fine, but objectively, the results don't match that feeling.

[Terminator]

Brownie and Max enter the conversation now.

 

I would suggest to the mods that this is now officially troll territory (it has been for months) and should be treated as such.

 

I haven't closely followed this YEARS long feud between jaysblue vs. max and brownie but it's ruining the board. I usually just scroll past it (unless jaysblue tees something up for me which he often does) because it's become boring and formulaic.

 

1. Either Max and Brownie post something that attempts to add some nuance to the discussion or jaysblue posts something that you'd find a 60 year old woman posting about on a Blue Jays facebook group.

2. Jaysblue comes in and mischaracterizes the entire post and calls them Atkins lovers

3. Max and Brownie take the bait and we have a fullblown argument on our hands

 

This has been going on for months, heck, maybe years at this point and it's boring and stupid. Max and Brownie at least try to argue in good faith, jaysblue is clearly not.

[jaysblue]

I would suggest to the mods that this is now officially troll territory (it has been for months) and should be treated as such.

 

I haven't closely followed this YEARS long feud between jaysblue vs. max and brownie but it's ruining the board. I usually just scroll past it (unless jaysblue tees something up for me which he often does) because it's become boring and formulaic.

 

1. Either Max and Brownie post something that attempts to add some nuance to the discussion or jaysblue posts something that you'd find a 60 year old woman posting about on a Blue Jays facebook group.

2. Jaysblue comes in and mischaracterizes the entire post and calls them Atkins lovers

3. Max and Brownie take the bait and we have a fullblown argument on our hands

 

This has been going on for months, heck, maybe years at this point and it's boring and stupid. Max and Brownie at least try to argue in good faith, jaysblue is clearly not.

 

Max argues in good faith and is actually rational & respectful. Have no issue with him.

 

Brownie comes across as an arrogant, disrespectful, and know-it-all. But I've been warming up to him.

 

Would love to see you make a post suggesting to the mods about some other posters on here who pretty much are always in troll territory and throwing insults around frequently. Spanky for one, gets away with a lot. But he's one of your pals who always agrees with you, so you won't bring his name ever up.

 

To suggest I'm a troll on this board is quite low of you. I have posted on this board for many years, since the original BJMB on the Jays site and have been a respectful member and have hardly ever been banned during my years here. Kind of disappointed in you Term for suggesting that.

[Brownie19]

I would suggest to the mods that this is now officially troll territory (it has been for months) and should be treated as such.

 

I haven't closely followed this YEARS long feud between jaysblue vs. max and brownie but it's ruining the board. I usually just scroll past it (unless jaysblue tees something up for me which he often does) because it's become boring and formulaic.

 

1. Either Max and Brownie post something that attempts to add some nuance to the discussion or jaysblue posts something that you'd find a 60 year old woman posting about on a Blue Jays facebook group.

2. Jaysblue comes in and mischaracterizes the entire post and calls them Atkins lovers

3. Max and Brownie take the bait and we have a fullblown argument on our hands

 

This has been going on for months, heck, maybe years at this point and it's boring and stupid. Max and Brownie at least try to argue in good faith, jaysblue is clearly not.

 

100% agree. My apologies for taking the bait too often. It's ironic that you've brought this up, as just this morning I made the decision to add them back to the ignore list to try and remove myself from the issue. I had them on ignore for a long time, but made the mistake of removing them at some point. That was my mistake - if I wanted to read that nonsense, I'll go to Facebook next time.

 

I agree it's ruining the board and I want no part of it.

Edited December 23, 2024 by Brownie19

[Terminator]

To suggest I'm a troll on this board is quite low of you. I have posted on this board for many years, since the original BJMB on the Jays site and have been a respectful member and have hardly ever been banned during my years here. Kind of disappointed in you Term for suggesting that.

 

Spare me the f***ing tears, this isn't that serious. You 100% troll those guys lol. They'll post something which at best is a limited and qualified defense of Atkins (who they want fired btw) and then you'll throw some "Atkins lover" comment out there.

 

This max and brownie vs. jaysblue and your buddies crap is nauseating. I'm not the only one who thinks this btw.

[BTS]

You guys have been getting along for like two months. Can we just go back to that plz?

[The_DH]

The casuals will be happy with the Corona Rooftop Patio and the Outfield District, sipping on $18 beers and vodka coolers!

 

and that's where the marketing guys are right (for business purposes). Let's face it, the members of this board are not so casual.

[Pendleton]

My New years resolution is to be less like a lot of you. Merry Christmas

[Delete_My_Account_Thanks]

How can you say that Ash/JP were worse than these guys?

 

Ash and JP never had anywhere near the payroll allotment that these f***s have been given.

 

All of them suck is my point. I miss AA.

 

And how is jaysblue the troll here? He doesn't say a quarter of the stuff that others do on here.

 

I don't think he's a troll at all. You guys just like to bully him.

[P2F]

We've found jaysblue's burner.

[Jays24]

How can you say that Ash/JP were worse than these guys?

 

Ash and JP never had anywhere near the payroll allotment that these f***s have been given.

 

All of them suck is my point. I miss AA.

 

And how is jaysblue the troll here? He doesn't say a quarter of the stuff that others do on here.

 

I don't think he's a troll at all. You guys just like to bully him.

 

They have literally bullied hundreds of posters off this board because they don't sign off on practically every move this front office made. It has been hilarious to see them backtracking and join the fire Shatkins bandwagon but still try to sound so condescending about it lol.

[Delete_My_Account_Thanks]

They have literally bullied hundreds of posters off this board because they don't sign off on practically every move this front office made. It has been hilarious to see them backtracking and join the fire Shatkins bandwagon but still try to sound so condescending about it lol.

 

I've got your back bro. I've agreed with a lot of your viewpoints and from what I've seen you've been the more mature poster who doesn't resort to name calling. On the contrary you are overly nice to these guys who continually s*** on you.

[Delete_My_Account_Thanks]

Just because someone doesn't agree with you doesn't make them a troll. Looking at you Terminator and Brownie

[Terminator]

Just because someone doesn't agree with you doesn't make them a troll. Looking at you Terminator and Brownie

 

Agreed

[Masterbather]

agreed

troll

[Stangstag]

Max argues in good faith and is actually rational & respectful. Have no issue with him.

 

Brownie comes across as an arrogant, disrespectful, and know-it-all. But I've been warming up to him.

 

Would love to see you make a post suggesting to the mods about some other posters on here who pretty much are always in troll territory and throwing insults around frequently. Spanky for one, gets away with a lot. But he's one of your pals who always agrees with you, so you won't bring his name ever up.

 

To suggest I'm a troll on this board is quite low of you. I have posted on this board for many years, since the original BJMB on the Jays site and have been a respectful member and have hardly ever been banned during my years here. Kind of disappointed in you Term for suggesting that.

 

Pot, meet kettle

[BTS]

You guys have been getting along for like two months. Can we just go back to that plz?

 

Thanks guys, good talk

[jaysblue]

You guys have been getting along for like two months. Can we just go back to that plz?

 

I'm meeting up with Brownie for beers after Christmas! He's buying!