General Blue Jays Discussion Thread (2024)

[Stangstag]

The Jays paid 10M for KK after a bad, 1 WAR season

And then paid the same price for him after a good, 2.8 WAR season

 

that's not "a terrible signing from the start" it's just a signing that did not work out.

 

you can say that it was bad strategy because of player type or whatnot but c'mon there are actual criticisms of Atkins to deploy, don't be dumb

 

They paid 9 mil for KK in 2022, when we desperately needed an everyday CF, and it worked out spectacularly. Acquired Varsho shortly after.

 

After the 2023 season it was evident that the offense was a problem, KK was coming off a best-case-scenario season, and it was clear Varsho was an elite defender but definitely not great with the bat. It was not the right move to sign KK again, for more money, and hope that he put up similar numbers to 2023 in addition to Varsho bouncing back enough to fill a corner OF spot.

[AMS528]

The Jays paid 10M for KK after a bad, 1 WAR season

And then paid the same price for him after a good, 2.8 WAR season

 

that's not "a terrible signing from the start" it's just a signing that did not work out.

 

you can say that it was bad strategy because of player type or whatnot but c'mon there are actual criticisms of Atkins to deploy, don't be dumb

 

But the strategy aspect of it can make it a bad signing overall can't it? You got a good hitting season out of a defensive CF. But he's now turning 34, which means in all likelihood like most mid 30 players he's going to decline offensively. The strategy aspect of it with Varsho. That the team was worse offensively the year before and now you're locking them into a very defense first bat second OF anyways.

 

I think most people thought we were signing him to be our 4th OF guy and that isn't really how Shatkins ran/saw it? I can definitely see the idea of it not being a terrible signing from the start because yeah if you see him as your 4th OF, he's pricey but presumably you're getting someone better, and that's not at all what took place.

 

Distinctly remembered and found this post in a discussion on whether Varsho would be our CF.

 

It would make plenty of sense. Varsho is younger, here for 3+ years, and not really a step down defensively from Kiermaier. The only reason not to let him have CF every day is that Atkins is too beta to stand up to a 34-year old 4th OF on a 1-year deal. Which he actually might be. But he shouldn't be. Brett Gardner was like a top-3 defensive OF in the middle of his prime and played LF every day, because that's where he was told to play.

 

He has literally only played CF and only once it was abundantly clear he was done did he go to the bench. He got 56 starts at CF, and basically the entire first two months. I don't think it's what most people envisioned. That makes it a bad signing to me.

[L54]

The Jays paid 10M for KK after a bad, 1 WAR season

And then paid the same price for him after a good, 2.8 WAR season

 

that's not "a terrible signing from the start" it's just a signing that did not work out.

 

you can say that it was bad strategy because of player type or whatnot but c'mon there are actual criticisms of Atkins to deploy, don't be dumb

 

I’m not going to rehash why it was a retarded signing but it was

[L54]

I remember an interview w him a few weeks back where he basically said he was ready to go, wanted to play, but nobody offered him a MLB deal

 

Strange deal honestly

[Laika]

They paid 9 mil for KK in 2022, when we desperately needed an everyday CF, and it worked out spectacularly. Acquired Varsho shortly after.

 

After the 2023 season it was evident that the offense was a problem, KK was coming off a best-case-scenario season, and it was clear Varsho was an elite defender but definitely not great with the bat. It was not the right move to sign KK again, for more money, and hope that he put up similar numbers to 2023 in addition to Varsho bouncing back enough to fill a corner OF spot.

 

"for more money" man it was not even a material increase in salary

 

I agree that signing a guy after a strong season can be a bad idea, but that is because they tend to cost a lot more. KK did not even cost more.

 

The Jays signed the 6th best projected FA outfielder (by fWAR) for much less money than most of the players projected for similar WAR totals, other than Harrison Bader.

 

They signed him for half of his expected contract.

 

And you can't even make a valid "should have signed X instead" for $10M because all of the good hitters went for like 1/$23M or 3/$42M

 

You know? Go take $10M and find a good hitting left fielder last offseason. Even with the perfect benefit of hindsight it's f***ing hard. Pham is back to replacement level, Duvall is under replacement level. Hicks sucks. Heyward and Taylor are role players.

 

You've got like... Jesse Winker and Jurickson Profar. Not exactly names that anyone wanted.

 

It's just a reasonable signing that didn't work out. Sigh.

 

Also, they could bench or cut him right now if Davis Schneider was hitting enough to just take the LF job but he isn't anymore so.

[Terminator]

Do you guys think that bitching daily about a couple of one year deals this past offseason is perhaps missing the forest for the trees? Hear me out.

 

1. The drafting and player development and the onfield performance of the core, are far far bigger issues and far more worthy of your time.

2. Atkins did seemingly hit on a couple of multi-year deals in IKF and Yariel. That's going to be a bigger net gain then whatever you guys think is lost by not signing Joc over Turner in a garbage year.

3. Atkins bigger screwup, is not playing a Buffalo Boy over KK and Turner much sooner. Horwitz is a Steamer600 3.5 WAR player (!!!). Schneider is a 2.3 WAR Steamer600 2B/LF. Ernie Clement is a 2.1 WAR infielder. These guys are just as good or better than any of the FAs you keep longing for and should have been playing while we were still in contention.

 

Bottomline is that Ross Atkins has 99 problems, and his offseason might be one. But it's not very high on the list and even then it's only a couple of one year deals that he whiffed on. But even then he could have rectified it quickly with a Buffalo Boy and he didn't.

[Laika]

I’m not going to rehash why it was a retarded signing but it was

 

nice argument, no argument

[L54]

Do you guys think that bitching daily about a couple of one year deals this past offseason is perhaps missing the forest for the trees? Hear me out.

 

1. The drafting and player development and the onfield performance of the core, are far far bigger issues and far more worthy of your time.

2. Atkins did seemingly hit on a couple of multi-year deals in IKF and Yariel. That's going to be a bigger net gain then whatever you guys think is lost by not signing Joc over Turner in a garbage year.

3. Atkins bigger screwup, is not playing a Buffalo Boy over KK and Turner much sooner. Horwitz is a Steamer600 3.5 WAR player (!!!). Schneider is a 2.3 WAR Steamer600 2B/LF. Ernie Clement is a 2.1 WAR infielder. These guys are just as good or better than any of the FAs you keep longing for and should have been playing while we were still in contention.

 

Bottomline is that Ross Atkins has 99 problems, and his offseason might be one. But it's not very high on the list and even then it's only a couple of one year deals that he whiffed on. But even then he could have rectified it quickly with a Buffalo Boy and he didn't.

 

I think everyone agrees with you. But it’s the all star break and somebody mentioned Joc Pederson on a message board. And here we are

[AMS528]

Do you guys think that bitching daily about a couple of one year deals this past offseason is perhaps missing the forest for the trees? Hear me out.

 

1. The drafting and player development and the onfield performance of the core, are far far bigger issues and far more worthy of your time.

2. Atkins did seemingly hit on a couple of multi-year deals in IKF and Yariel. That's going to be a bigger net gain then whatever you guys think is lost by not signing Joc over Turner in a garbage year.

3. Atkins bigger screwup, is not playing a Buffalo Boy over KK and Turner much sooner. Horwitz is a Steamer600 3.5 WAR player (!!!). Schneider is a 2.3 WAR Steamer600 2B/LF. Ernie Clement is a 2.1 WAR infielder. These guys are just as good or better than any of the FAs you keep longing for and should have been playing while we were still in contention.

 

Bottomline is that Ross Atkins has 99 problems, and his offseason might be one. But it's not very high on the list and even then it's only a couple of one year deals that he whiffed on. But even then he could have rectified it quickly with a Buffalo Boy and he didn't.

 

Yeah on the whole this is right. I'm probably more annoyed about KK than it makes sense to be. The frustration is moreso that you stick with KK, and instead of running Varsho with Schneider in the OF right away you waste time and value. It's like 1 WAR here and there with the bats. Turner/KK etc. But ultimately not as meaningful as Bo being terrible, or Kirk not hitting at all etc.

 

And definitely not as meaningful as the bullpen collapsing and the starters being mediocre especially. Atkins could take some blame for not seeing the starters not having some regression though and needing more hitting as a result. But even then, lack of bats available so we were stuck relying on them and hoping they'd be just as good again.

 

And for the sure, the main thrust is that he can be blamed for the drafting and development which left us with inadequate pieces to chase Soto though. Really the issues with the core, inability to trade for additional pieces, lack of excitement all gets traced back to drafting and development which make you then have to hope you sign some saviors in a s***** free agent market.

[MikeM3]

The best steel man for KK is that Ross knew our pitching would be bottom 5-7 in K% and GB%

[jaysblue]

I still can't believe there are some people on this board defending Atkins and this FO regarding the KK signing.

 

At the time, signing KK as a "starter" did not make sense at all when the Jays already had Varsho who could play CF and since they needed to upgrade the lineup which was quite evident from the 2023 season. KK was an aging outfielder who was 34 and has been injury prone before. To expect him to repeat his 2023 season was ridiculous.

 

I've stated numerous times the perfect role for KK would have been coming back as a 4th outfielder due to his defensive abilities, and someone who manages to work his way into 250-300 AB. This still would have required the Jays going out to add another bat for a corner OF spot, which they failed to do. If money was going to be an issue and if signing KK prevented them from signing another outfielder with pop, then they should have passed on KK because that $10M could have been better spent elsewhere.

[L54]

nice argument, no argument

 

Well your argument is they had a 50% off coupon for an injury prone 34 year old who relies on athleticism coming off the second most games played of his career who was surprised at the lack of interest

 

Red flags galore

[Stangstag]

Do you guys think that bitching daily about a couple of one year deals this past offseason is perhaps missing the forest for the trees? Hear me out.

 

1. The drafting and player development and the onfield performance of the core, are far far bigger issues and far more worthy of your time.

2. Atkins did seemingly hit on a couple of multi-year deals in IKF and Yariel. That's going to be a bigger net gain then whatever you guys think is lost by not signing Joc over Turner in a garbage year.

3. Atkins bigger screwup, is not playing a Buffalo Boy over KK and Turner much sooner. Horwitz is a Steamer600 3.5 WAR player (!!!). Schneider is a 2.3 WAR Steamer600 2B/LF. Ernie Clement is a 2.1 WAR infielder. These guys are just as good or better than any of the FAs you keep longing for and should have been playing while we were still in contention.

 

Bottomline is that Ross Atkins has 99 problems, and his offseason might be one. But it's not very high on the list and even then it's only a couple of one year deals that he whiffed on. But even then he could have rectified it quickly with a Buffalo Boy and he didn't.

 

Totally agree with this. Do you want to take a wild crack at WHY exactly KK and Turner were getting more playtime over the young guys??

[Stangstag]

I still can't believe there are some people on this board defending Atkins and this FO regarding the KK signing.

 

At the time, signing KK as a "starter" did not make sense at all when the Jays already had Varsho who could play CF and since they needed to upgrade the lineup which was quite evident from the 2023 season. KK was an aging outfielder who was 34 and has been injury prone before. To expect him to repeat his 2023 season was ridiculous.

 

I've stated numerous times the perfect role for KK would have been coming back as a 4th outfielder due to his defensive abilities, and someone who manages to work his way into 250-300 AB. This still would have required the Jays going out to add another bat for a corner OF spot, which they failed to do. If money was going to be an issue and if signing KK prevented them from signing another outfielder with pop, then they should have passed on KK because that $10M could have been better spent elsewhere.

 

Jays could sign the corpse of Prince Fielder and a handful of posters here would try to rationalize it.

[Stangstag]

Which they did with *ahem Joey Votto.

 

Can't believe anyone here though Votto would actually contribute lol

[Spanky99]

sOmE pEoPlE

[L54]

Some peopie

[glory]

Well your argument is they had a 50% off coupon for an injury prone 34 year old who relies on athleticism coming off the second most games played of his career who was surprised at the lack of interest

 

Red flags galore

 

Yeah, by KK's own admission he was surprised at the lack of interest in him. The Jays already got the best case scenario out of him in 2023. Signing him again and expecting anything resembling the 2023 season was not wise. Aside from that, the Jays trading a top prospect in baseball for an elite defensive CF with an xwOBA below .300 even his best seasons and then proceeding to play that player in LF for 2 consecutive seasons is crazy. I don't care if you think KK is better defensively at CF, it makes no sense from a roster construction standpoint, and certainly didn't help the Jays fix their biggest issues (power/offense). If the Jays never traded for Varsho, then sure bring KK back as many times as you want until a better CF option presented itself.

 

I thought IKF was an awful signing, but from a positional standpoint, his signing was the only one that made sense.

[Terminator]

I think everyone agrees with you. But it’s the all star break and somebody mentioned Joc Pederson on a message board. And here we are

 

Ok fair enough. It was an interesting article so I shouldn't fault anyone for discussing it and it naturally leads into another discussion about the offseason.

[L54]

Ok fair enough. It was an interesting article so I shouldn't fault anyone for discussing it and it naturally leads into another discussion about the offseason.

 

Ya I think everyone took a Larry when they were supposed to take a Roger and we ended up here

 

Interesting article I agree. I also agrree with you that it was in Joc’s best interest to pump Toronto’s tires a little as a FA to be

[L54]

Yeah, by KK's own admission he was surprised at the lack of interest in him. The Jays already got the best case scenario out of him in 2023. Signing him again and expecting anything resembling the 2023 season was not wise. Aside from that, the Jays trading a top prospect in baseball for an elite defensive CF with an xwOBA below .300 even his best seasons and then proceeding to play that player in LF for 2 consecutive seasons is crazy. I don't care if you think KK is better defensively at CF, it makes no sense from a roster construction standpoint, and certainly didn't help the Jays fix their biggest issues (power/offense). If the Jays never traded for Varsho, then sure bring KK back as many times as you want until a better CF option presented itself.

 

I thought IKF was an awful signing, but from a positional standpoint, his signing was the only one that made sense.

 

Good summary. IKF has been miles better than I expected. That was a good signing. A true professional

[Terminator]

Totally agree with this. Do you want to take a wild crack at WHY exactly KK and Turner were getting more playtime over the young guys??

 

A lot of it is probably rooted in not wanting to make big changes based on small sample sizes. Springer looked like the worst player in baseball but now he looks like he's actually going to be pretty decent the next couple of years so sometimes patience can pay off.

 

Some of it has been bad timing too. Turner has been up and down and any time they were probably ready to bench him he was trending up. KK had that injury which you could say threw off his timing and his defense has been good so they wanted to keep playing him.

 

At this point, I'm sure they've known for a while that they need to bench these two but with the trade deadline they want to play them to try and get something for them which I think is the right move.

[John_Havok]

Good summary. IKF has been miles better than I expected. That was a good signing. A true professional

 

Would you still think that if he comes back from injury and puts up a 70 wRC+ the rest of the season after not being traded?

[Stangstag]

A lot of it is probably rooted in not wanting to make big changes based on small sample sizes. Springer looked like the worst player in baseball but now he looks like he's actually going to be pretty decent the next couple of years so sometimes patience can pay off.

 

Some of it has been bad timing too. Turner has been up and down and any time they were probably ready to bench him he was trending up. KK had that injury which you could say threw off his timing and his defense has been good so they wanted to keep playing him.

 

At this point, I'm sure they've known for a while that they need to bench these two but with the trade deadline they want to play them to try and get something for them which I think is the right move.

 

You’re fooling yourself if you think i doesn’t have to do with money. At least early on. Springer and KK 100% should have been bench players after the first month until they showed something

[L54]

Would you still think that if he comes back from injury and puts up a 70 wRC+ the rest of the season after not being traded?

 

Well no, probably not

 

Would you?

[Terminator]

You’re fooling yourself if you think i doesn’t have to do with money. At least early on. Springer and KK 100% should have been bench players after the first month until they showed something

 

Oh I thought you were genuinely asking the question lol

 

Sure, money plays a part but not in some nefarious way. They thought those players were better and that's why they gave them the money to begin with. They don't want to cut bait too quickly on guys they think are better. Maybe they don't want to piss off agents of future potential FAs by cutting bait too quickly as well.

 

But I don't think they look at the payroll and determine the lineup based on who makes the most money or anything like that.

[Masterbather]

You’re fooling yourself if you think i doesn’t have to do with money. At least early on. Springer and KK 100% should have been bench players after the first month until they showed something

 

Maybe not benched, but should've had their roles reduced much more until they came to life and especially in Springer's case, moved down the lineup much earlier than he was.

[John_Havok]

Well no, probably not

 

Would you?

 

Yes. Because my opinion isn't based on results that change from month to month and week to week.

[L54]

Yes. Because my opinion isn't based on results that change from month to month and week to week.

 

Haha okay Mr Righteous good for you 👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼

[L54]

90 wrc+ and 1 WAR 2/15

 

Great signing