General Blue Jays Discussion Thread (2024)

[saskjayfan]

From Ken Rosenthal....

 

 

George Springer took a 90 mph fastball from a lefty right down the middle. Middle, middle! No swing. They are playing paper, scissors rock with these pitchers. Pre game meetings going over a million scenarios. Well in the pre game meeting he was suppose to throw me a slider in that count. Seriously. Look for a pitch, adjust to what comes. Trust your eyes and your natural athletic ability. Swing and miss might go up a tick, but the problem isn't the swing and miss. It's missing pitches you should do damage on.

 

Bo, Vlad and Springer were all great in training. Granted there are all types of pitchers, some not major leaguers. The vast majority of pitchers they faced in spring were major leaguers. There's not scouting reports or pre game meetings. You go out and trust your eyes and hit the ball.

 

4 f***ing hitting coaches. How many little mechanical adjustments are these guys making on a day to day basis? You need to tinker and make adjustments but there's too many voices. Fire 3 of these guys and have one consistent voice. Implementing minor mechanical adjustments takes times. These guys aren't hitting and will literally try anything to break out and they have way too many voices in the room.

 

The bulk of failure is mental right now. That's down to process in place. That flows from Atkins down to Schneider to the staff and the players. A strong manager might step in and change the process. Schneider clearly isn't that guy. We aren't getting rid of Atkins. We probably need to get rid of Schneider and bring in a strong manager with experience and give him some autonomy.

 

There was a report from a reporter last week that Terry francona's health was improving dramatically and he stated a desire to get back into managing. Just saying.

Edited May 4, 2024 by saskjayfan

[BigCecil]

I never wanted Ross gone until last off season(as much as his Ned Flanders persona irked me), but it should have been done then.

 

I always felt we could do a lot worse than Ross, and that is still the case. He was not bad at this job at all and made some great moves.

 

I was not as enamored with this off season as much of the Shatkinite Cult was. Middling, at best, results.

 

This team needs fresh eyes to lead into this period dealing with end of the Bo & Vlad era, and just changing the Manager again won't do it. Tear the band aid off now.

[leaffie]

I have never understood the adoration of Shapiro and Atkins. Shapiro did a remake of the stadium in Cleveland and when it was finished, attendance peaked and fell each year after. His team made it to the playoffs once. And they played in the central.

 

He comes to TO with lofty promises and has certainly rebuilt Rogers centre. So what, the team managed to get to the playoffs and was bounced out in humiliating fashion. When he arrived, there was a core of young good players. Where has their success been. Who is drafting and who is in the minors that gives this team hope. Tiedemann,who is always injured.

 

We have no one down there that could be traded to help this team. And to top it off, the Jays have one of the top payrolls. This team cannot hit this year, and couldnt hit last year. Bo looks like he is praying for a trade and Vladdy just looks lost.

 

The Shapiro era is a total failure and is worse than the JP era.

 

Fire Shatkins and let someone else rebuild this team. Waiting for another year accomplishes nothing. Shatkins has had 9 years, he doesn't deserve another year.

[L54]

I have never understood the adoration of Shapiro and Atkins. Shapiro did a remake of the stadium in Cleveland and when it was finished, attendance peaked and fell each year after. His team made it to the playoffs once. And they played in the central.

 

He comes to TO with lofty promises and has certainly rebuilt Rogers centre. So what, the team managed to get to the playoffs and was bounced out in humiliating fashion. When he arrived, there was a core of young good players. Where has their success been. Who is drafting and who is in the minors that gives this team hope. Tiedemann,who is always injured.

 

We have no one down there that could be traded to help this team. And to top it off, the Jays have one of the top payrolls. This team cannot hit this year, and couldnt hit last year. Bo looks like he is praying for a trade and Vladdy just looks lost.

 

The Shapiro era is a total failure and is worse than the JP era.

 

Fire Shatkins and let someone else rebuild this team. Waiting for another year accomplishes nothing. Shatkins has had 9 years, he doesn't deserve another year.

 

Agree completely

[jaysblue]

I have never understood the adoration of Shapiro and Atkins. Shapiro did a remake of the stadium in Cleveland and when it was finished, attendance peaked and fell each year after. His team made it to the playoffs once. And they played in the central.

 

He comes to TO with lofty promises and has certainly rebuilt Rogers centre. So what, the team managed to get to the playoffs and was bounced out in humiliating fashion. When he arrived, there was a core of young good players. Where has their success been. Who is drafting and who is in the minors that gives this team hope. Tiedemann,who is always injured.

 

We have no one down there that could be traded to help this team. And to top it off, the Jays have one of the top payrolls. This team cannot hit this year, and couldnt hit last year. Bo looks like he is praying for a trade and Vladdy just looks lost.

 

The Shapiro era is a total failure and is worse than the JP era.

 

Fire Shatkins and let someone else rebuild this team. Waiting for another year accomplishes nothing. Shatkins has had 9 years, he doesn't deserve another year.

 

Nice summary!

[jaysblue]

I never wanted Ross gone until last off season(as much as his Ned Flanders persona irked me), but it should have been done then.

 

I always felt we could do a lot worse than Ross, and that is still the case. He was not bad at this job at all and made some great moves.

 

I was not as enamored with this off season as much of the Shatkinite Cult was. Middling, at best, results.

 

This team needs fresh eyes to lead into this period dealing with end of the Bo & Vlad era, and just changing the Manager again won't do it. Tear the band aid off now.

 

Yeah a lot of rational posters on here I think agree that Ross Atkins wasn't a bad GM and was actually solid. He made some great moves which I and many like you acknowledge. However there is a cult on this board that praises the floor Atkins walks on 24/7 which irks me. It feels like this team hasn't taken advantage of their window given and I saw those warning signs during the 2021 season. Even this offseason, the goal was to add some power to the lineup after a disastrous 2023, and they failed to do that.

 

Also, can't blame everything on Atkins. Guerrero and Bo have been awful to start the season. Warning signs of Vladdy not being elite have been there since 2022, so I think it's time to move on after this season. I think Bo will figure it out at some point. Springer is an old broken down player now whose contract is immovable.

 

I think this team needs fresh eyes to lead this team through the end of the Bo & Vlad era. Right now the farm system hasn't produced much to be excited about and this roster is an old, aging and expensive roster, including the pitching. I think the window is near a close. The team is likely still an 85 win team with strong pitching and defense, but any regression in those areas, the results likely will be worse.

[JFD]

Never trust a bureaucrat (Atkins)

[Stangstag]

Do any of you guys actually go to the games? The fan experience (the spaces, food, beverage, etc) is better than its ever been in the club’s history. For that I thank Shapiro and i’ll always be grateful.

 

But yes, the success of the actual team has been disappointing.

 

Shapiro should stay but he needs to bring in a new GM. If he doesn’t, then that’s a failure on him.

[Omar]

Do any of you guys actually go to the games? The fan experience (the spaces, food, beverage, etc) is better than its ever been in the club’s history. For that I thank Shapiro and i’ll always be grateful.

 

But yes, the success of the actual team has been disappointing.

 

Shapiro should stay but he needs to bring in a new GM. If he doesn’t, then that’s a failure on him.

 

Been to more games than I can count, but I actually go to watch baseball, and the product stinks right now. That's on Shapiro.

[Olerud363]

George Springer took a 90 mph fastball from a lefty right down the middle. Middle, middle! No swing. They are playing paper, scissors rock with these pitchers. Pre game meetings going over a million scenarios. Well in the pre game meeting he was suppose to throw me a slider in that count. Seriously. Look for a pitch, adjust to what comes. Trust your eyes and your natural athletic ability. Swing and miss might go up a tick, but the problem isn't the swing and miss. It's missing pitches you should do damage on.

 

Bo, Vlad and Springer were all great in training. Granted there are all types of pitchers, some not major leaguers. The vast majority of pitchers they faced in spring were major leaguers. There's not scouting reports or pre game meetings. You go out and trust your eyes and hit the ball.

 

4 f***ing hitting coaches. How many little mechanical adjustments are these guys making on a day to day basis? You need to tinker and make adjustments but there's too many voices. Fire 3 of these guys and have one consistent voice. Implementing minor mechanical adjustments takes times. These guys aren't hitting and will literally try anything to break out and they have way too many voices in the room.

 

The bulk of failure is mental right now. That's down to process in place. That flows from Atkins down to Schneider to the staff and the players. A strong manager might step in and change the process. Schneider clearly isn't that guy. We aren't getting rid of Atkins. We probably need to get rid of Schneider and bring in a strong manager with experience and give him some autonomy.

 

There was a report from a reporter last week that Terry francona's health was improving dramatically and he stated a desire to get back into managing. Just saying.

 

As an outsider how do we know that 'simplifying' things will help? What if the problem is the opposite that they aren't advanced enough?

 

Here are the opposite problems.

 

1. Jays analytics is behind the times so when they say 'look slider in this count' they are just wrong. Solution is not to go old school but to get better at analytics.

 

2. Jays video and pitch machine prep is way behind so not recognizing out of pitcher's hand as good as other teams. Correct me if I am wrong, but these teams have massive video analysis teams, and pitch machines that can replicate any pitch. The good teams are having their hitters exposed to both video and pitch machines and getting good at recognizing pitches early. Jays are behind on this.

 

I guess the concern I have is that if the problem is that the Jays analytics is two years behind, then going old school will just make the situation worse.

[Olerud363]

As an outsider how do we know that 'simplifying' things will help? What if the problem is the opposite that they aren't advanced enough?

 

Here are the opposite problems.

 

1. Jays analytics is behind the times so when they say 'look slider in this count' they are just wrong. Solution is not to go old school but to get better at analytics.

 

2. Jays video and pitch machine prep is way behind so not recognizing out of pitcher's hand as good as other teams. Correct me if I am wrong, but these teams have massive video analysis teams, and pitch machines that can replicate any pitch. The good teams are having their hitters exposed to both video and pitch machines and getting good at recognizing pitches early. Jays are behind on this.

 

I guess the concern I have is that if the problem is that the Jays analytics is two years behind, then going old school will just make the situation worse.

 

Maybe a dedication thing to. Maybe Ohtani when he is not gambling and throwing his translator under the bus is just video/video/video/prep/prep/prep. Some of the Jays personalities aren't prep-rats as much.

 

Maybe some of the young players will be better prep-rats.

[BCZ]

Everyone cheer for your last place Toronto blue jays ! ! Hip hip, hip hip

[saskjayfan]

As an outsider how do we know that 'simplifying' things will help? What if the problem is the opposite that they aren't advanced enough?

 

Here are the opposite problems.

 

1. Jays analytics is behind the times so when they say 'look slider in this count' they are just wrong. Solution is not to go old school but to get better at analytics.

 

2. Jays video and pitch machine prep is way behind so not recognizing out of pitcher's hand as good as other teams. Correct me if I am wrong, but these teams have massive video analysis teams, and pitch machines that can replicate any pitch. The good teams are having their hitters exposed to both video and pitch machines and getting good at recognizing pitches early. Jays are behind on this.

 

I guess the concern I have is that if the problem is that the Jays analytics is two years behind, then going old school will just make the situation worse.

 

Obviously we don't know what's going on and you could be correct. My comment stems from a comment made by Turner who said "what if" in response to what's the problem a week ago. What if it's a slider. Guys are caught between pitches. That and we've steadily gotten worse for a couple years now offensively. Doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results is the definition of insanity. Whatever caused George Springer to take a 90 mph fastball in a 1-1 count right down the middle has to change. If its more analytics, not less so be it.

 

My thoughts are truly wild speculation of a frustrated fan. I fully admit it..lol. I think if Joey Votto retired and immediately became our hitting coach tomorrow and tried to get players to do all the things he did as a hitter that it would fail spectacularly. All players have different strengths and some aren't capable of doing the things Votto did in his career.

 

My hypothesis is our organization is well versed in identifying what good hitters do to be successful and are trying to mold or fix players rather than playing to their strengths. I could be completely off base. Whatever we are doing it isn't working. That's the obvious thing. The solution is a sphynx riddle.

[max silver]

I have never understood the adoration of Shapiro and Atkins. Shapiro did a remake of the stadium in Cleveland and when it was finished, attendance peaked and fell each year after. His team made it to the playoffs once. And they played in the central.

 

He comes to TO with lofty promises and has certainly rebuilt Rogers centre. So what, the team managed to get to the playoffs and was bounced out in humiliating fashion. When he arrived, there was a core of young good players. Where has their success been. Who is drafting and who is in the minors that gives this team hope. Tiedemann,who is always injured.

 

We have no one down there that could be traded to help this team. And to top it off, the Jays have one of the top payrolls. This team cannot hit this year, and couldnt hit last year. Bo looks like he is praying for a trade and Vladdy just looks lost.

 

The Shapiro era is a total failure and is worse than the JP era.

 

Fire Shatkins and let someone else rebuild this team. Waiting for another year accomplishes nothing. Shatkins has had 9 years, he doesn't deserve another year.

 

Holy crap there's some negative posters around here but this really takes the cake. There has been a lack of recent post season success no doubt but how many post season appearances did JP teams have exactly?

[Spanky99]

Interesting piece for May 3rd from Rosenthal guessing on surprise sellers at the deadline.

 

https://theathletic.com/5468520/2024/05/03/mlb-trade-deadline-surprise-sellers-astros-giants/

 

Early for that, but its does hammer home we are getting closer to High Noon on Bo & Vlad, and a big test for FO and ownership.

 

Interesting. Yeah, I can't see that happening, if it does, than all s*** went to hell.

[Spanky99]

Do any of you guys actually go to the games? The fan experience (the spaces, food, beverage, etc) is better than its ever been in the club’s history. For that I thank Shapiro and i’ll always be grateful.

 

But yes, the success of the actual team has been disappointing.

 

Shapiro should stay but he needs to bring in a new GM. If he doesn’t, then that’s a failure on him.

 

Should've done it last season after chucking JS under the bus, he won't get canned this year unless this play keeps up.

[hanton]

As an outsider how do we know that 'simplifying' things will help? What if the problem is the opposite that they aren't advanced enough?

 

Here are the opposite problems.

 

1. Jays analytics is behind the times so when they say 'look slider in this count' they are just wrong. Solution is not to go old school but to get better at analytics.

 

2. Jays video and pitch machine prep is way behind so not recognizing out of pitcher's hand as good as other teams. Correct me if I am wrong, but these teams have massive video analysis teams, and pitch machines that can replicate any pitch. The good teams are having their hitters exposed to both video and pitch machines and getting good at recognizing pitches early. Jays are behind on this.

 

I guess the concern I have is that if the problem is that the Jays analytics is two years behind, then going old school will just make the situation worse.

 

The Texas Rangers went very heavy on big data and anyaltics and look what it has done for them, so it's possible the Jays are actually behind on this

[Olerud363]

Obviously we don't know what's going on and you could be correct. My comment stems from a comment made by Turner who said "what if" in response to what's the problem a week ago. What if it's a slider. Guys are caught between pitches. That and we've steadily gotten worse for a couple years now offensively. Doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results is the definition of insanity. Whatever caused George Springer to take a 90 mph fastball in a 1-1 count right down the middle has to change. If its more analytics, not less so be it.

 

My thoughts are truly wild speculation of a frustrated fan. I fully admit it..lol. I think if Joey Votto retired and immediately became our hitting coach tomorrow and tried to get players to do all the things he did as a hitter that it would fail spectacularly. All players have different strengths and some aren't capable of doing the things Votto did in his career.

 

My hypothesis is our organization is well versed in identifying what good hitters do to be successful and are trying to mold or fix players rather than playing to their strengths. I could be completely off base. Whatever we are doing it isn't working. That's the obvious thing. The solution is a sphynx riddle.

 

 

Totally agree that it is frustrating beyond belief. On the "Whatever we are doing it isn't working" note... why does Vlad Guerrero Jr. play 160 games?

 

In 2019 he was given an off day 2-4 times a month. Which was frustrating because Tosco was brain dead about it (like giving him an off day in front of a big Victoria day home crowd after a big weekend on the road)...

 

Still they maybe try the Barry Bonds treatment with Vlad? 145 starts, 150 or so games. Why not at this point. Why load manage him as a fresh 20 year old but not as a struggling beat up looking at times, 23-25 year old?

[max silver]

Should've done it last season after chucking JS under the bus, he won't get canned this year unless this play keeps up.

 

By the time Atkins took the mic Schneider had already chucked himself in front of the oncoming bus so I don't see why Atkins should have been fired. That would just be a meaningless sacrifice to placate fan anger. If the team continues to flounder as it has for the first month and a bit Atkins will have fully earned his pink slip.

[hanton]

found this as of 2022.....surpised? I am, didn't think we would be that low - I know the Jays hired a multiple entery level positions last year on the baseball ops side - all technical positions so I'm sure the numbers have change a bit

 

[Spanky99]

The Texas Rangers went very heavy on big data and anyaltics and look what it has done for them, so it's possible the Jays are actually behind on this

 

After investing all that money in Dunedin, you can't actually think this, the Jays are heavily invested in analytics, dude.

[MikeM3]

The Texas Rangers went very heavy on big data and anyaltics and look what it has done for them, so it's possible the Jays are actually behind on this

 

Their hitting coach is a 38 year old biomechanist. Ours is Don Mattingly.

[Spanky99]

By the time Atkins took the mic Schneider had already chucked himself in front of the oncoming bus so I don't see why Atkins should have been fired. That would just be a meaningless sacrifice to placate fan anger. If the team continues to flounder as it has for the first month and a bit Atkins will have fully earned his pink slip.

 

It was the disconnect that bothered me immensely to be honest, if they don't turn it around, he's toast.

[BTS]

May 4th and Bo and Vlad are still at -0.1 fWAR combined.

[hanton]

After investing all that money in Dunedin, you can't actually think this, the Jays are heavily invested in analytics, dude.

 

Not sure what you mean, analytics is not about having fancy facilities if anything that's mnore old school; it's more about r&d and data - it's why I mentioned the Rangers - I have no idea what facilities they have or don't have but I do know they went extremely heavy on the r&d side, like leading edge stuff r&d.

[Eat My Shatkins]

May 4th and Bo and Vlad are still at -0.1 fWAR combined.

 

This is why I have a hard time throwing the noose around Atkins neck so quickly. The guy built a pretty good team but unfortunately he built it around a rotten core. I don't think anyone would have seen that coming in 2021 or 2022.

[max silver]

May 4th and Bo and Vlad are still at -0.1 fWAR combined.

 

I'd absolutely lump Springer into that total to make a combined 0.1 FWAR for the 3 of them 5 weeks into the season.

[BTS]

I'd absolutely lump Springer into that total to make a combined 0.1 FWAR for the 3 of them 5 weeks into the season.

 

It's true. I'm just less disgusted by Springer because he's old and has been through a lot physically, and the team should have been reasonably prepared from him to fall off a cliff at this stage of his career.

[Spanky99]

Not sure what you mean, analytics is not about having fancy facilities if anything that's mnore old school; it's more about r&d and data - it's why I mentioned the Rangers - I have no idea what facilities they have or don't have but I do know they went extremely heavy on the r&d side, like leading edge stuff r&d.

 

Yeah, that's what I'm saying, surely they have their data up to snuff with driveline etc, I mean I would hope so, lmao.

[Brownie19]

If the game day preparation was s*** and actually affecting our players, don't we think a 39 year old vet like Turner would be like "WTF is this nonsense? This is wrong you dipshits" and he'd tell them exactly what information he needs to be successful and he'd tell them what his approach is?

 

Wouldn't all vets generally know what information they personally like to receive and what works for them? Some like all kinds of info, others don't as they get overloaded. Do you guys think Donny Baseball is shoving information down Springers throat and forcing it on him?

 

Don't we think they'd talk to Vlad about what info they gave him in 2021 and try going back to that?

 

I just don't see why a coaching staff would insist on using the same approach over and over when the results aren't there. It can't be overly difficult to monitor and share information about what pitchers are using which pitches to you in certain counts. That is pretty f***ing basic advanced scouting. It makes no sense to me that our coaches would look at all the very basic, readily available information and go "expect a slider in this situation", when in fact, more often than not, pitchers are throwing a fastball....and even if they did - after they are wrong and see the fastball a few times, the coaches would continue to tell them to forget about the fastball - a slider is coming.

 

Do people believe this is what's happening?