Jays 2021/22 General Off-Season Discussion

[wamco]

Found elsewhere and expressed

More eloquently than me-

 

The purpose of election is chiefly, and in its purest sense, for the recipient. The fact that others have a rooting interest in the canonization is very secondary. Members should be admitted solely on their qualifications, and as such, can be disqualified; particularly for cheating. It's stat padding. Resume padding. Qualification padding. We celebrating the guy with the fake MD diploma? We shaking the hand of the non-military guy wearing the fake Army Rangers uniform stealing valour? We putting Ben Johnson in the track and field HOF now? Membership can not be disassociated from the actual member. jmho.

[John_Havok]

Found elsewhere and expressed

More eloquently than me-

 

The purpose of election is chiefly, and in its purest sense, for the recipient. The fact that others have a rooting interest in the canonization is very secondary. Members should be admitted solely on their qualifications, and as such, can be disqualified; particularly for cheating. It's stat padding. Resume padding. Qualification padding. We celebrating the guy with the fake MD diploma? We shaking the hand of the non-military guy wearing the fake Army Rangers uniform stealing valour? We putting Ben Johnson in the track and field HOF now? Membership can not be disassociated from the actual member. jmho.

 

Precedent has already admitted cheaters to the Hall of Fame. The list is incredibly long. Keep trying. Whoever said that is full of s*** trying to feel good about himself.

[Grant77]

Precedent has already admitted cheaters to the Hall of Fame. The list is incredibly long. Keep trying. Whoever said that is full of s*** trying to feel good about himself.

 

David Ortiz was caught using steroids for god sakes. He got in because members of the media like his personality. If this was based on performance on the baseball field and ethics then he would be nowhere close.

[John_Havok]

David Ortiz was caught using steroids for god sakes. He got in because members of the media like his personality. If this was based on performance on the baseball field and ethics then he would be nowhere close.

 

His only real knock is that he was DH for pretty much his whole career and while I can entertain and understand that argument to a point, there's no denying his actual numbers are worthy of induction.

[BTS]

David Ortiz was caught using steroids for god sakes. He got in because members of the media like his personality. If this was based on performance on the baseball field and ethics then he would be nowhere close.

 

I think he did enough on the field to warrant inclusion:

 

- 500+ homeruns

- 23rd all-time in RBI

- career 140 wRC+

- 3-time WS champion

- I think he's first all-time in WAR accrued at DH, but it might be close with Thome/Thomas

 

I'd also like to see nelson Cruz get in, and I think he will if he hangs on long enough to hit another 51 homeruns.

 

My issue with this class is that there are more deserving players left out.

[BTS]

Also, apparently FG has decided to go from an annoying giant yellow banner to a giant yellow popup ad that has to be closed every time you load a new page. I hate everything about the way that site is managed.

[Grant77]

His only real knock is that he was DH for pretty much his whole career and while I can entertain and understand that argument to a point, there's no denying his actual numbers are worthy of induction.

 

It's quite a stretch to say that his numbers are obviously Hall of Fame worthy. At best he's a very borderline case and to put a player like that in on the first ballot is as bad as the Harold Baines induction in my opinion.

 

Consider Edgar Marrinez, who provided significantly more value (nearly 30% more), barely made it into the Hall of Fame. Contemporaries like Manny Ramirez, Scott Rolen, Carlos Beltran, and Andruw Jones were even higher than Martinez.

 

Joey Votto passed Ortiz in WAR 5 years ago and people still consider him a borderline case. Similarly valuable players from his era are guys like Ian Kinsler, Andrew McCutchen, Matt Holliday and not other Hall of Famers.

 

In fact, of 11 hitters that got more than 10% of the vote this year, David Ortiz placed 10th in WAR ahead of only Omar Vizquel. Bobby Abreu was also higher.

[The Cats Ass]

Edgar Martinez had a higher WAR in less games 65.5 (2055 games) vs 51.0 (2408 games), and he had a higher wRC+ than Ortiz. It took him until his 10th and final year to get in.

[Jimcanuck]

Not sure what is worse, All Star Game voting or HOF voting

[John_Havok]

It's quite a stretch to say that his numbers are obviously Hall of Fame worthy. At best he's a very borderline case and to put a player like that in on the first ballot is as bad as the Harold Baines induction in my opinion.

 

Consider Edgar Marrinez, who provided significantly more value (nearly 30% more), barely made it into the Hall of Fame. Contemporaries like Manny Ramirez, Scott Rolen, Carlos Beltran, and Andruw Jones were even higher than Martinez.

 

Joey Votto passed Ortiz in WAR 5 years ago and people still consider him a borderline case. Similarly valuable players from his era are guys like Ian Kinsler, Andrew McCutchen, Matt Holliday and not other Hall of Famers.

 

In fact, of 11 hitters that got more than 10% of the vote this year, David Ortiz placed 10th in WAR ahead of only Omar Vizquel. Bobby Abreu was also higher.

 

I think the argument there is that the voters were idiots when it came to Martinez, not that they got it wrong with Ortiz. Also, comparing the DH to position players is not apples to apples.

[The Cats Ass]

Not sure what is worse, All Star Game voting or HOF voting

 

HOF voting without a doubt. ASG is for the fans, let the fans decide. It was a different story though when the ASG decided WS home field advantage.

[BTS]

Edgar Martinez had a higher WAR in less games 65.5 (2055 games) vs 51.0 (2408 games), and he had a higher wRC+ than Ortiz. It took him until his 10th and final year to get in.

 

Edgar should have been inducted earlier. The voters held his lack of postseason games/success against him and rewarded Ortiz for his extensive postseason track record. I don't really think it's wrong to credit Ortiz for his playoff resume.

 

I also think the voters had to overcome their aversion to inducting a DH. Now that they did, the floodgates might be open a bit. I'd like to see the same happen with relievers. Wagner should be in. Eventually Chapman, Jansen, and Kimbrel if they finish strong. Hader some day?

[Boxcar]

I think the argument there is that the voters were idiots when it came to Martinez, not that they got it wrong with Ortiz. Also, comparing the DH to position players is not apples to apples.

 

You are well aware of why Grant is so opposed to Ortiz. If he was a lifelong Brewer, his induction wouldn't be an issue.

[Boxcar]

Soo.. who is the brainlet/retard as you like to say??

 

Still you.

[John_Havok]

You are well aware of why Grant is so opposed to Ortiz. If he was a lifelong Brewer, his induction wouldn't be an issue.

 

Maybe Delgado gets a chance now. Guy was railroaded off the ballot with a whimper when his numbers in many respects are very comparable to Ortiz. Better hitter on a rate basis but didn't have those extra 3 or 4 years at the end to push him higher.

 

Didnt get the postseason success overall but when he did make the playoffs with the Mets, he hit very well.

 

Just happened to be on the ballot when 1b/DH types weren't cool.

[Spanky99]

So basically a large amount of writers just vote for guys they like on a personal level, regardless of their on-field accomplishments.

 

Correct.

[wamco]

Maybe Delgado gets a chance now. Guy was railroaded off the ballot with a whimper when his numbers in many respects are very comparable to Ortiz. Better hitter on a rate basis but didn't have those extra 3 or 4 years at the end to push him higher.

 

Didnt get the postseason success overall but when he did make the playoffs with the Mets, he hit very well.

 

Just happened to be on the ballot when 1b/DH types weren't cool.

 

2015 was his last year on the ballot, brainlet

[BTS]

2015 was his last year on the ballot, brainlet

 

Veteran's committee

[wamco]

Even objective thinkers have to see the difference in careers of Ortiz and Delgado were not represented in the HOF voting.

I have been calling papi coasting in for years so have already developed a deep bitterness about it. I thought maybe they’d even be considered equal given Ortiz being a dh while Carlos played the field.

Carlos voting class had 4 1st ballot hall of famers and 8 others that eventually got in.

Makes my top 10 as I wouldn’t have thrown Lee smith a vote. If 9 of the 50 people who voted for the ghost of don mattingly gave those votes to Carlos, he stays above the 5pct line

[wamco]

Veteran's committee

 

Oops. My apologies. What a f***ing idiot I sounded like!

[John_Havok]

 

But no Bonds, because reasons.

[Spanky99]

Also, apparently FG has decided to go from an annoying giant yellow banner to a giant yellow popup ad that has to be closed every time you load a new page. I hate everything about the way that site is managed.

 

Very annoying.

[Stangstag]

 

But no Bonds, because reasons.

 

After learning just how much of a massive POS he is I don’t feel so bad about him missing the hall.

 

Obviously he should be in based on his numbers alone but the HoF is clearly not just about numbers.

 

It is what it is.

[Jimcanuck]

If Bonds doesn't get in because of his character, that excludes 10-20% of the current MLB'ers from ever getting in the HOF.

 

It's a combination of his character and his being on the leading edge of PED use. It shouldn't matter anyway, and they should instead think about baseball mad kids 50 years from now at the HOF "Where is Barry Bonds?" "Where is Roger Clemens?"

 

Baseball executives and the writers need to get their heads out of their asses and do what's good for the game.

[Grant77]

I think the argument there is that the voters were idiots when it came to Martinez, not that they got it wrong with Ortiz. Also, comparing the DH to position players is not apples to apples.

 

I don't think it is. WAR accounts for positions and I don't agree that we should necessarily induct inferior players like Ortiz simply because their position is under represented. It's hardly a given that he would have provided more value if he had played at first base or another position.

 

Why do we hold defense against a better player like Manny Ramirez. Would he be first ballot if he were considered a DH instead?

[Brownie19]

Found elsewhere and expressed

More eloquently than me-

 

The purpose of election is chiefly, and in its purest sense, for the recipient. The fact that others have a rooting interest in the canonization is very secondary. Members should be admitted solely on their qualifications, and as such, can be disqualified; particularly for cheating. It's stat padding. Resume padding. Qualification padding. We celebrating the guy with the fake MD diploma? We shaking the hand of the non-military guy wearing the fake Army Rangers uniform stealing valour? We putting Ben Johnson in the track and field HOF now? Membership can not be disassociated from the actual member. jmho.

 

What I struggle with is the reality that upwards of 75% of the league was also cheating....so it's not like the playing field was skewed significantly.

[Boxcar]

2015 was his last year on the ballot, brainlet

 

Am I allowed to point out how stupid this guy is?

 

He's responding to a post that explicitly states that Delgado isn't on the ballot. Then, unaware BTS states that the veteran's committee, WHICH IS A SEPARATE BODY with a very different process, can elect him, to which this f***ing idiot responds by affirming that he is a f***ing idiot, his words.

 

Congrats on making it to adulthood, bud. Glad all those guys who made fun of you for wearing a helmet on the bus didn't completely destroy your self esteem.

[Spanky99]

Am I allowed to point out how stupid this guy is?

 

He's responding to a post that explicitly states that Delgado isn't on the ballot. Then, unaware BTS states that the veteran's committee, WHICH IS A SEPARATE BODY with a very different process, can elect him, to which this f***ing idiot responds by affirming that he is a f***ing idiot, his words.

 

Congrats on making it to adulthood, bud. Glad all those guys who made fun of you for wearing a helmet on the bus didn't completely destroy your self esteem.

 

Bwahahahaha... T-Rekt!

[Jimcanuck]

Am I allowed to point out how stupid this guy is?

 

He's responding to a post that explicitly states that Delgado isn't on the ballot. Then, unaware BTS states that the veteran's committee, WHICH IS A SEPARATE BODY with a very different process, can elect him, to which this f***ing idiot responds by affirming that he is a f***ing idiot, his words.

 

Congrats on making it to adulthood, bud. Glad all those guys who made fun of you for wearing a helmet on the bus didn't completely destroy your self esteem.

 

Dont care..... whats the f***ing point, did it make you feel better to write this?

[Spanky99]

Were you guys reading Jays Journal? I was at that 4 Dinger game t'was great...

 

https://jaysjournal.com/2022/01/25/blue-jays-carlos-delgado-deserved-better-from-hall-of-fame-voters/