Blue Jays-Dodgers World Series Game 7 Thread: Max Scherzer vs Shohei Ohtani

[L54]

Could you imagine the outrage if IKF got doubled up on a ball smoked at Muncy? 
 

These things aren’t new. These players have been playing the same game their entire lives. Bases loaded less than two outs you’re guarding against getting doubled off. It is in the Baseball 101 book

Part of what makes that play as close as it was was that Rojas ends up on his heels making that play taking a split second longer to transfer 

 

 

[ComeTogether]

 

 

[G-Snarls]

Team might have a MOTY winner but no gold gloves LOL

[Terminator]

Whatever you do, do NOT visit the Jays subreddit as it will make you want to commit an act of violence.

They are currently holding a kumbaya moment with Dodgers fans over what a great World Series it was. 

[Olerud363.354]

4 hours ago, Laika said:

I am jealous of your optimism, but I doubt it and history/probabilities would say otherwise 

They have a good enough core / payroll / organization now to bump up their WS odds for next year, but we are still talking about maybe a 5% to 10% chance of winning or getting back to the World Series, respectively 

There is also a real chance that this was a last gasp - the final exertion of effort and luck for the extended cycle of attention and talent and organizational momentum that started in 2015 and just finally died forever all because IKF is a fraud 

Bo and Vlad increased their lifetime playoff wins from 0 to 10 and did not bring any happiness.

If they increase chances of winning world series each year to 1/15 they have a 50% chance of getting one next 10 years. 

I wonder how many people here remember going to watch the 95 team.  It got depressing pretty fast.  Literally organizational momentum ground to a halt November 1st 1993 and didn't come back until 2015.  

Honestly if the Blue Jays win 89 in 2027 with Addison Barger looking good.  Kirk and Vladdy fighting off obesity related early declines, Trey Yesavage 14-9 3.44 (not a superstar but solid) make a wild card and Vladdy and Kirk beat a better team with their clutchiness they learned this year....   you'll be happier than if IKF got home Saturday night, but they went into a 95 Jays, 2022 Washington Nationals style pit.  

[BigRed]

52 minutes ago, L54 said:

Could you imagine the outrage if IKF got doubled up on a ball smoked at Muncy? 
 

These things aren’t new. These players have been playing the same game their entire lives. Bases loaded less than two outs you’re guarding against getting doubled off. It is in the Baseball 101 book

Part of what makes that play as close as it was was that Rojas ends up on his heels making that play taking a split second longer to transfer 

 

 

If Schneider is trusting enough of Varsho to keep the bat in his hands and not have him lay down a bunt, why wouldn't you tell IKF to take a slightly bigger lead with a lefty pull hitter at the plate? If Varsho lines out to 3rd or short and IKF gets doubled out, you tip your hat and chalk that up to bad luck on a ball in play to a part of the field that he doesn't really hit to. Look at his fangraphs spray charts -- I don't see a single line drive to 3rd or short.

That said, I don't blame IKF. He's not the best runner to begin with. Varsho needs to get that ball up in the air deep. There's a dozen other plays you can point to that if they went the jays way we'd be getting ready for a parade.

[Terminator]

1 minute ago, Olerud363.354 said:

Bo and Vlad increased their lifetime playoff wins from 0 to 10 and did not bring any happiness.

This makes me feel a little bit better actually.

If any Orioles fanboys dare show their faces next season I can nuke them by pointing to a 10-0 playoff wins tally. 

[Eat My Shatkins]

10-14 looks a lot better than 0-6 but not as good as 11-13 

 

😔

[SeranthonySantander]

12 minutes ago, Olerud363.354 said:

Bo and Vlad increased their lifetime playoff wins from 0 to 10 and did not bring any happiness.

If they increase chances of winning world series each year to 1/15 they have a 50% chance of getting one next 10 years. 

I wonder how many people here remember going to watch the 95 team.  It got depressing pretty fast.  Literally organizational momentum ground to a halt November 1st 1993 and didn't come back until 2015.  

Honestly if the Blue Jays win 89 in 2027 with Addison Barger looking good.  Kirk and Vladdy fighting off obesity related early declines, Trey Yesavage 14-9 3.44 (not a superstar but solid) make a wild card and Vladdy and Kirk beat a better team with their clutchiness they learned this year....   you'll be happier than if IKF got home Saturday night, but they went into a 95 Jays, 2022 Washington Nationals style pit.  

Yea I do not like this narrative that this is a once in a lifetime group of guys and can never be replicated.

Sure, for them though.  I like to see them having fun but no fans are going to cherish memories of joking around in the clubhouse and interviews saying they love each other.  That does not help me.

If we win it doesn't matter, winning solves all problems

And honestly I have the feeling the clubhouse is only such a nice place to be is because of guys like Ernie who don't have big egos with their 200m contracts.   Sounds like he is mostly responsible for the environment there

[Fastball21]

7 hours ago, L54 said:

Could you imagine the outrage if IKF got doubled up on a ball smoked at Muncy? 

 

 

Absolutely none, you want to go for the win, right? Seriously there's zero justification for playing it safe in that situation. 

[BigRed]

19 hours ago, thatoneguy said:

I really hope the CBA renewal/lockout puts an end to/limits all of this deferred salary BS.

The Dodgers have now been in the WS 5 times in the last 9 years, winning 3 times. Probably as close to a "dynasty" that we will see in modern pro sports, and they have a good chance of winning several more in the coming years with Ohtani's contract structured the way it is. The fact that they have the payroll they do, while paying Ohtani 2M/year is completely absurd. The MLB  should have absolutely stepped in and not allowed the contract to be structured the way it is, but I doubt they had the authority to do so, or simply didn't care. The league has done everything in its power to cater to him. They made the "Ohtani rule" after all...

Even if the MLB limits/ends deffered salary in the next CBA - the damage has been done. The Dodgers have a very good chance of making the WS 4-5 more times over the last 8 years of Ohtani's contract.

You have to wonder when the rest of the league/owners will get fed up of money buying playoff births, deep playoff runs or championships -- but im guessing some of the smaller market teams enjoy the CBT cheques they get every year. Plus everyone is going to point to the Mets, but if they keep spending the way they are, it's only a matter of time before they see some deep playoff runs.

If the dodgers run it back again for a 3rd time I think you're going to have a lot of upset owners and fans -- whether the owners/front offices speak up is another thing.

 

[hanton]

2 minutes ago, Fastball21 said:

Absolutely none it's what you want, you want to go for the win, right? Seriously there's zero justification for playing it safe in that situation. 

no man, it's kind of the worst thing in baseball - getting doubled off is a big no no

[Fastball21]

6 hours ago, hanton said:

no man, it's kind of the worst thing in baseball - getting doubled off is a big no no

Sorry but I find this so bizarre, are you saying it was better to get thrown out at home? I'm so baffled by this, the winning run got thrown out at home, how could that be better? Getting doubled off in this situation was not the worst thing in baseball, getting thrown out at home was. 

[hanton]

3 minutes ago, BigRed said:

The Dodgers have now been in the WS 5 times in the last 9 years, winning 3 times. Probably as close to a "dynasty" that we will see in modern pro sports, and they have a good chance of winning several more in the coming years with Ohtani's contract structured the way it is. The fact that they have the payroll they do, while paying Ohtani 2M/year is completely absurd. The MLB  should have absolutely stepped in and not allowed the contract to be structured the way it is, but I doubt they had the authority to do so, or simply didn't care. The league has done everything in its power to cater to him. They made the "Ohtani rule" after all...

Even if the MLB limits/ends deffered salary in the next CBA - the damage has been done. The Dodgers have a very good chance of making the WS 4-5 more times over the last 8 years of Ohtani's contract.

You have to wonder when the rest of the league/owners will get fed up of money buying playoff births, deep playoff runs or championships -- but im guessing some of the smaller market teams enjoy the CBT cheques they get every year. Plus everyone is going to point to the Mets, but if they keep spending the way they are, it's only a matter of time before they see some deep playoff runs.

If the dodgers run it back again for a 3rd time I think you're going to have a lot of upset owners and fans -- whether the owners/front offices speak up is another thing.

 

Go and check LA's WS winning team in 2020. The starting rotation is 100% home grown, 2024 50% home grown

be better at drafting and developing, augment with FA

[Spanky__99]

6 hours ago, Omar said:

We were the better team in that series....just not when it really counted. And that's why it stings. 

 

💯

[BigRed]

11 minutes ago, hanton said:

no man, it's kind of the worst thing in baseball - getting doubled off is a big no no

https://www.fangraphs.com/players/daulton-varsho/19918/spray-charts?position=OF

Look at his spray charts. Why are we even pretending to be worried about a line out to 3rd or short? He had one infield lineout all season to 2nd.

I'm not blaming Schneider, but I'm assuming between him, the bench coach, hitting coach, and everyone else feeding them information on the bench that somebody should have been aware he just doesn't line out to that part of the field. I think Barger being doubled off in game 6 absolutely had an impact on how they played IKF there. They were worried about a <1% scenario instead of just playing the odds.

Another way to look at it simply that it was much more likely for Varsho to hit a ground ball somewhere between 2nd and 1st base, than it was him lining out to 3rd, short or the pitcher. Schenider must have been aware that they'd take the single out at home over a DP & conceeding the run with the score what it was, at that point of the game.

[Brownie19]

I know it doesn't always work like this, but...

The 2014 Royals:

- First World Series appearance since winning the title 30 years prior 

- Lost in heartbreaking fashion in Game 7 at home

- Generational pitching performance by opponent SP, came in to deliver last out, got WS MVP.

The 2015 Royals:

- World Series Champions

[SeranthonySantander]

41 minutes ago, hanton said:

no man, it's kind of the worst thing in baseball - getting doubled off is a big no no

This is a good video on it, they do think IKF done f***ed up.  

But one quote from AJ - at about 10 mins, is you can never worried about being doubled up on the bases.  Reasoning that even if you are 3' off and you take that first step, you are cooked either way on a sharp line drive because of your momentum.

[BigRed]

2 minutes ago, Brownie19 said:

I know it doesn't always work like this, but...

The 2014 Royals:

- First World Series appearance since winning the title 30 years prior 

- Lost in heartbreaking fashion in Game 7 at home

- Generational pitching performance by opponent SP, came in to deliver last out, got WS MVP.

The 2015 Royals:

- World Series Champions

I think when you look at the last 2 seasons, it's not unrealistic to expect some regression. I don't think this is the 74 win team from a year ago, but I don't think they are truly a 94 win team either. Not looking at the losses to the Dodgers, they had a lot of timely contributions, especially from the bottom of the order that's going to be hard to reproduce / replicate.

If Bo leaves that's going to be a huge blow, but Im not conviced hes worth the 25-30M over 7-8 years that he will probably get either. They should hopefully get a boost to the starting pitching with Yesavage, but I wouldn't be shocked to see this team slip back closer to the mid 80s in wins.

[Spanky__99]

2 hours ago, Terminator said:

What did Schneider do that was so idiotic?

Game 3?

[hanton]

6 minutes ago, SeranthonySantander said:

This is a good video on it, they do think IKD done f***ed up.  

But one quote from AJ - at about 10 mins, is you can never worried about being doubled up on the bases.  Reasoning that even if you are 3' off and you take that first step, you are cooked either way on a sharp line drive because of your momentum.

Valid points in hindsight but you also need to consider who the runner is.  The best base runner probably gets the green light to push it, but IKF? a utility player.

This was lost in the top of the 9th

[hanton]

26 minutes ago, BigRed said:

https://www.fangraphs.com/players/daulton-varsho/19918/spray-charts?position=OF

Look at his spray charts. Why are we even pretending to be worried about a line out to 3rd or short? He had one infield lineout all season to 2nd.

I'm not blaming Schneider, but I'm assuming between him, the bench coach, hitting coach, and everyone else feeding them information on the bench that somebody should have been aware he just doesn't line out to that part of the field. I think Barger being doubled off in game 6 absolutely had an impact on how they played IKF there. They were worried about a <1% scenario instead of just playing the odds.

Another way to look at it simply that it was much more likely for Varsho to hit a ground ball somewhere between 2nd and 1st base, than it was him lining out to 3rd, short or the pitcher. Schenider must have been aware that they'd take the single out at home over a DP & conceeding the run with the score what it was, at that point of the game.

for us this is all in hindsight plus you also need to consider the base runner, IKF isn't good at much tbh and you're asking him to take a healthy secondary lead down the line.  The Jays obviously played it safe - maybe because of what happened in game 5 with Bo at 1st and then game 6 with Barger doubled off 2nd.  this was lost because Hoffman couldn't close out the game in the 9th

[hanton]

I think a case can be made getting doubled off in extra innings in game 7 of the WS is probably the worst thing that can happen to a team.  Never good to give free outs.

ffs all of a sudden baseball 101 getting s*** on

[Spanky__99]

2 hours ago, Terminator said:

Thank you Brownie. I had plans to hang myself tonight as I can't stomach this loss any longer but maybe I'll rethink things.

The pit in my stomach will not subside, friendo, it's going to take awhile.

[SeranthonySantander]

10 minutes ago, hanton said:

I think a case can be made getting doubled off in extra innings in game 7 of the WS is probably the worst thing that an happen to a team.  Never good to give free outs

ffs all of a sudden baseball 101 getting s*** on

I don't know, risk reward is the reasoning

But yea you cant imagine IKF is one to have a lot of confidence being where he is in his career

[thatoneguy]

16 minutes ago, BigRed said:

I think when you look at the last 2 seasons, it's not unrealistic to expect some regression. I don't think this is the 74 win team from a year ago, but I don't think they are truly a 94 win team either. Not looking at the losses to the Dodgers, they had a lot of timely contributions, especially from the bottom of the order that's going to be hard to reproduce / replicate.

If Bo leaves that's going to be a huge blow, but Im not conviced hes worth the 25-30M over 7-8 years that he will probably get either. They should hopefully get a boost to the starting pitching with Yesavage, but I wouldn't be shocked to see this team slip back closer to the mid 80s in wins.

...if they run back the exact same team next year, which they won't.

[hanton]

5 minutes ago, SeranthonySantander said:

I don't know, risk reward is the reasoning

But yea you cant imagine IKF is one to have a lot of confidence being where he is in his career

should have had a Dave Roberts type pinch runner to put in

Jays win if not for Pages going in for Edman - no way he makes that catch

I wonder if the pre game reports even has a risk reward stat?  might be something to consier - they have the data

[SeranthonySantander]

Just now, hanton said:

Jays win if not for Pages going in for Edman - no way he makes that catch

I choose to believe Kike makes the catch and will not be watching it ever again

I'm sure Dodgers had lots of missed opps too which we won't even remember.  

[newhere]

Hi all, been lurking and reading here for a long time. I'm struggling pretty hard with the grief. Half embarrassed about it because I know it's just a game, but it's real and tough to handle. 

 

 

[Buster]

IKF being bad at baseball cost umthw WS, sure.

But there were at least ten other equivalently egregious events.  Hoffman doing Hoffman being the biggest one of course.