When was the last time that there was a Jays team this unlikeable and unwatchable?

[Brownie19]

Multiple people complaining about a 89 win season last year is pretty funny.

[Spanky99]

Multiple people complaining about a 89 win season last year is pretty funny.

 

Last year is nothing like this year, lol.

[Stangstag]

Same, this year for me has been absolutely brutal.

 

Don’t worry Spank, things will be ok. I know you were one of the last guys in the “stay positive” crew, and it sucks that the entire crew has now disbanded. Most of us saw the writing on the wall earlier but you were one of the last to jump ship.

 

This team is a f***ing disappointment and people should lose their jobs. Things WILL get better.

[Stangstag]

This year is probably worse but 2013 would rival it.

 

On the heels of the Marlins trade as well as the Synder for Dickey trade. Bautista had an injury plagued year and the starting pitching sucked and we finished 74-88. The offense was a tick above average and we had a good bullpen at least. Expectations were high though, or at least there was some reason for optimism, and the team hadn't been to the playoffs forever.

 

This team is probably more frustrating to watch though. Good defense and starting pitching but bad offense and a horrible bullpen is a really bad combination to watch. Good defense and solid starting pitching isn't really that entertaining, no matter what anyone says. Offense is entertaining and we don't have it. And a bad bullpen is one of the most frustrating things in sports.

 

Ooof yeah the 2013/2014 years were disappointing as hell. Had to watch the decline of Dickey and the rise of Syndergaard and dArnaud in real-time, while we didn’t even come close to sniffing the playoffs.

[Stangstag]

Something to consider about that 2013 team is that two years later we had the best team in baseball in 2015 and it wasn't even close. +221 run differential and the next closest team was the Cardinals at +122.

 

And that didn't require a rebuild nor did the farm contribute a whole lot to the turnaround.

 

We got pretty lucky with Oakland basically giving us perennial MVP candidate Donaldson for free. And Russell Martin IMO was the most important acquisition that flies a bit under the radar I feel. A great catcher can vault a team directly into contention and I feel like Russ was the backbone of the team.

You see it with the Phillies and Orioles too. Those teams basically changed culture overnight.

[Spanky99]

Don’t worry Spank, things will be ok. I know you were one of the last guys in the “stay positive” crew, and it sucks that the entire crew has now disbanded. Most of us saw the writing on the wall earlier but you were one of the last to jump ship.

 

This team is a f***ing disappointment and people should lose their jobs. Things WILL get better.

 

Okay.

[AMS528]

We got pretty lucky with Oakland basically giving us perennial MVP candidate Donaldson for free. And Russell Martin IMO was the most important acquisition that flies a bit under the radar I feel. A great catcher can vault a team directly into contention and I feel like Russ was the backbone of the team.

You see it with the Phillies and Orioles too. Those teams basically changed culture overnight.

 

 

Well then it really sucks to have traded a 24 year old catcher who has performed like a 3-4 WAR player during his age 23 and 24 seasons. Solid defensive numbers, solid BB and K%. I do think he's got the upside to be a 5 WAR catcher.

[Brownie19]

Don’t worry Spank, things will be ok. I know you were one of the last guys in the “stay positive” crew, and it sucks that the entire crew has now disbanded. Most of us saw the writing on the wall earlier but you were one of the last to jump ship.

 

This team is a f***ing disappointment and people should lose their jobs. Things WILL get better.

 

How confident should we be that new people will produce better results? Half the teams in baseball are probably disappointed in their season and those who are in charge of their respective teams. What % of new FO's actually succeed in turning around the franchise and leading them back to relevance within a reasonable period - say 4-5 years? Is it even 50%?

 

Things will change, but it remains to be seen if things will get better anytime soon. I can certainly see someone coming in here and turning us back into a contender in the next 3-5 years (if our payroll remains high), but I also wouldn't be surprised at all if we have 3-4 more years <.500 where our season is essentially over before it starts (possibly aligned with Rogers cutting payroll). The added WC spots certainly help, but there's a real possibility the next FO is a complete dud and we don't see the playoffs for another 10 years.

[Stangstag]

How confident should we be that new people will produce better results? Half the teams in baseball are probably disappointed in their season and those who are in charge of their respective teams. What % of new FO's actually succeed in turning around the franchise and leading them back to relevance within a reasonable period - say 4-5 years? Is it even 50%?

 

Things will change, but it remains to be seen if things will get better anytime soon. I can certainly see someone coming in here and turning us back into a contender in the next 3-5 years (if our payroll remains high), but I also wouldn't be surprised at all if we have 3-4 more years <.500 where our season is essentially over before it starts (possibly aligned with Rogers cutting payroll). The added WC spots certainly help, but there's a real possibility the next FO is a complete dud and we don't see the playoffs for another 10 years.

 

Stop being such a debbie downer

[Omar]

How confident should we be that new people will produce better results? Half the teams in baseball are probably disappointed in their season and those who are in charge of their respective teams. What % of new FO's actually succeed in turning around the franchise and leading them back to relevance within a reasonable period - say 4-5 years? Is it even 50%?

 

Things will change, but it remains to be seen if things will get better anytime soon. I can certainly see someone coming in here and turning us back into a contender in the next 3-5 years (if our payroll remains high), but I also wouldn't be surprised at all if we have 3-4 more years <.500 where our season is essentially over before it starts (possibly aligned with Rogers cutting payroll). The added WC spots certainly help, but there's a real possibility the next FO is a complete dud and we don't see the playoffs for another 10 years.

 

Did Masterbather hack your account?

[polar bear]

There have been a few since day one,but I cannot remember ever been so disinterested in the Jays,Sad.

[Spanky99]

Well then it really sucks to have traded a 24 year old catcher who has performed like a 3-4 WAR player during his age 23 and 24 seasons. Solid defensive numbers, solid BB and K%. I do think he's got the upside to be a 5 WAR catcher.

 

[Brownie19]

Stop being such a debbie downer

 

I'm just being a realist. I suspect there's a "good" probability that the next GM who's brought in fails. Happens all the time in baseball. Everyone just assumes the next guy is going to be better than Atkins, but that shouldn't be considered a given.

 

There isn't a lot to work with on this roster IMO (you'd really think I'm a Debbie Downer if I tell you what I fear about most of our players and prospects). The best thing we have going for us right now is payroll - and I DO NOT believe that's the right way to build a winning roster.

[G-Snarls]

 

I think he's talking about Moreno

 

Who, with his bat, probably is probably closer than a 2-3 WAR catcher than 5

[Doubleplay21]

Hope soon Atkins is gone.

That is the major improvement

[DigitalRock]

This year has been pretty brutal not watched near as much due to ow unlikeable /unfun this team is

[Spanky99]

I think he's talking about Moreno

 

Who, with his bat, probably is probably closer than a 2-3 WAR catcher than 5

 

Oh, well that's falsely advertised then, and I have zero idea what it had to do with Stang's post, hence my confusion if that's indeed it.

[Auldphartt]

Well then it really sucks to have traded a 24 year old catcher who has performed like a 3-4 WAR player during his age 23 and 24 seasons. Solid defensive numbers, solid BB and K%. I do think he's got the upside to be a 5 WAR catcher.

 

We really messed up that deal. Acquiring Varsho was brilliant but giving up Moreno was just plain stupid.

 

Arizona was desperate for a catcher. If we'd thrown in a couple of our extraneous middle infielders or pitching prospects, we probably could have dumped Jansen on them.

[Spanky99]

We really messed up that deal. Acquiring Varsho was brilliant but giving up Moreno was just plain stupid.

 

Arizona was desperate for a catcher. If we'd thrown in a couple of our extraneous middle infielders or pitching prospects, we probably could have dumped Jansen on them.

 

lulz... @ this guy.

[Joltin Joe]

This is just brutal. I know there's been some bad teams over the years, but it becomes all the more boring to watch when there's NO offense. At least when the team sucked before there would be guys like Frank Thomas who you could root for and make for an interesting story line. I'm sorry I just can't stand to watch 1 more minute of Ernie Clement, Dalton Varsho, Bo Bichette or any of these other limp bat hacks.

Probably end Riccardo era

[AMS528]

I think he's talking about Moreno

 

Who, with his bat, probably is probably closer than a 2-3 WAR catcher than 5

 

I said upside if he ever gets a bit more power. And I said 3-4 WAR is what he is right now. He's at 1.7 in 69 games this year, the projections see him ending at around 3.2-3.3ish in 120 games. He had 2.3 in 111 games last year as a rookie.

 

I think it's reasonable to criticize what I said as being early on saying he's a 3-4 WAR catcher, but I think looking at his numbers where he has both great strikeout and walk numbers, and looking at his defense which also grades out well, that's what he's going to be. I think he'll be that by the end of this season. He's doing that while being a terrible blocker and an average hitter. I think he'll be that for a number of years as his framing and particularly his blocking improve which creates a solid floor for his value.

 

And if he does improves his blocking, and takes any steps at all with his power I think there is absolutely the upside for a 5 WAR season. Catchers rack up value quick when their defense is great across the board (why Kirk still has value even though he can't seem to hit anymore).

 

Also I don't really think the Varsho/Moreno trade was some terrible trade. Arizona might wind up getting more long term value out of it, but it's hardly a disaster. My response was more to him saying that a great catcher can have a huge impact on your team long term, and I was saying it's possible we have given up a player who could fit that role.

[tazsub3]

Interesting question , while I am sure there has been dark moments before , I a fan since the mid 80s can’t ever remember tuning off and having no interest even in checking the box scores like this year .

I went from season ticket holders , attending spring training , following prospects religiously to now nothing …

Maybe I am just getting older , maybe this no should no life management got me so turned off

[Mikeleelop]

This is just brutal. I know there's been some bad teams over the years, but it becomes all the more boring to watch when there's NO offense. At least when the team sucked before there would be guys like Frank Thomas who you could root for and make for an interesting story line. I'm sorry I just can't stand to watch 1 more minute of Ernie Clement, Dalton Varsho, Bo Bichette or any of these other limp bat hacks.

 

The other current issue is that the Jays have very little to look forward to in the farm system.....

 

When will things look up again is the problem, team hasnt bottomed out yet

[Mikeleelop]

Don’t worry Spank, things will be ok. I know you were one of the last guys in the “stay positive” crew, and it sucks that the entire crew has now disbanded. Most of us saw the writing on the wall earlier but you were one of the last to jump ship.

 

This team is a f***ing disappointment and people should lose their jobs. Things WILL get better.

 

Problem is we have a horrible farm system and getting better will take quite a bit of time

[max silver]

Problem is we have a horrible farm system and getting better will take quite a bit of time

 

Simply getting the higher ceiling pitching prospects healthy would make a big difference. Healthier seasons from the likes of Tiedemann, Barriera, Rojas and Maroudis would dramatically improve the pitching outlook in particular. Add Yesavage who looks like he's going to move quickly as a highly polished college pitcher to the aforementioned group and the pitching depth starts to get a lot more interesting.

[L54]

Simply getting the higher ceiling pitching prospects healthy would make a big difference. Healthier seasons from the likes of Tiedemann, Barriera, Rojas and Maroudis would dramatically improve the pitching outlook in particular. Add Yesavage who looks like he's going to move quickly as a highly polished college pitcher to the aforementioned group and the pitching depth starts to get a lot more interesting.

 

Every team has guys like Barriera, Rojas and Maroudis who you can look at and say wow if only they did X things would look a lot better

 

The farm is a mess. Bottom 10 for sure and nobody that looks like an impact talent

[Brownie19]

Every team has guys like Barriera, Rojas and Maroudis who you can look at and say wow if only they did X things would look a lot better

 

The farm is a mess. Bottom 10 for sure and nobody that looks like an impact talent

 

Agreed. We're actually quite lucky that Schneider, Leo and Horwitz look like MLB contributors, or the outlook would be even worse.

[Terminator]

This is going to sound nuts, so bear with me here, but the rankings have undersold us a bit.

 

Steamer projects Horwitz as a 3.5 WAR player moving forward. Fangraphs typically gives a player like that a 60 FV which puts a prospect in contention for the Top 10. But entering the year Horwitz was getting a 40FV.

 

I'm not saying Horwitz is definitely a 3.5 WAR player, nor is he a 60 FV. But if he is, or if he's even a 55, that would have boosted our rankings at least a couple of spots. You're basically taking a nobody and adding a Top 100 prospect. So maybe we crack the Top 20. Yay.

[Laika]

Agreed. We're actually quite lucky that Schneider, Leo and Horwitz look like MLB contributors, or the outlook would be even worse.

 

Can you call it luck if they keep doing it? lol

 

Boring boot cut fan Ross Atkins, leave it to him to create the most boring farm system ever, which just kind of pathetically and unceremoniously drips AAAA players into the big leagues where they have surprisingly good projections and performance

 

Add Clement to the list too

 

Excited for 2025 when Barger and Wil Robertson emerge in June as 2 WAR talents

[connorp]

This is going to sound nuts, so bear with me here, but the rankings have undersold us a bit.

 

Steamer projects Horwitz as a 3.5 WAR player moving forward. Fangraphs typically gives a player like that a 60 FV which puts a prospect in contention for the Top 10. But entering the year Horwitz was getting a 40FV.

 

I'm not saying Horwitz is definitely a 3.5 WAR player, nor is he a 60 FV. But if he is, or if he's even a 55, that would have boosted our rankings at least a couple of spots. You're basically taking a nobody and adding a Top 100 prospect. So maybe we crack the Top 20. Yay.

 

Babe is league average but also hits .217 and strikes out a lot. Not a great long term bet.

It may not be wise to be do any long term projecting with any of these also rans