When was the last time that there was a Jays team this unlikeable and unwatchable?

[glory]

This is going to sound nuts, so bear with me here, but the rankings have undersold us a bit.

 

Steamer projects Horwitz as a 3.5 WAR player moving forward. Fangraphs typically gives a player like that a 60 FV which puts a prospect in contention for the Top 10. But entering the year Horwitz was getting a 40FV.

 

I'm not saying Horwitz is definitely a 3.5 WAR player, nor is he a 60 FV. But if he is, or if he's even a 55, that would have boosted our rankings at least a couple of spots. You're basically taking a nobody and adding a Top 100 prospect. So maybe we crack the Top 20. Yay.

 

Horwitz's future value changes a lot if he's primarily a 2B. I haven't watched much of the games this season, but he currently has a +2 OAA at 2B. If he's even average defensively there for a few years, then I think he has a chance to be a pretty good player.

 

The issue with the farm system as others have said is lack of impact talent. Tiedemann is obviously one but he's barely thrown any innings in years and is hurt again. The Buffalo Boys look like they could be big league contributors, which is helpful, but looking at A- to AAA aside from those guys, and it's hard to even squint and see a future big league contributor based on current data. If they finally decide to get rid of Atkins, then hopefully a complete overhaul of their current player development team follows.

[Terminator]

Can you call it luck if they keep doing it? lol

 

Boring boot cut fan Ross Atkins, leave it to him to create the most boring farm system ever, which just kind of pathetically and unceremoniously drips AAAA players into the big leagues where they have surprisingly good projections and performance

 

Add Clement to the list too

 

Excited for 2025 when Barger and Wil Robertson emerge in June as 2 WAR talents

 

Otto Lopez started to fade before he got hurt but his xStats and defense look strong. We just had to keep Craig Biggio's son around for another year but I think it's fair to add Lopez to the list too.

[Terminator]

Babe is league average but also hits .217 and strikes out a lot. Not a great long term bet.

It may not be wise to be do any long term projecting with any of these also rans

 

Yeah I'm hesitant to jump all in on Steamer with these guys. They seem a little unathletic and who knows how they will age. But they are clearly better than the prospects sites gave them credit for.

[Brownie19]

Horwitz's future value changes a lot if he's primarily a 2B. I haven't watched much of the games this season, but he currently has a +2 OAA at 2B. If he's even average defensively there for a few years, then I think he has a chance to be a pretty good player.

 

The issue with the farm system as others have said is lack of impact talent. Tiedemann is obviously one but he's barely thrown any innings in years and is hurt again. The Buffalo Boys look like they could be big league contributors, which is helpful, but looking at A- to AAA aside from those guys, and it's hard to even squint and see a future big league contributor based on current data. If they finally decide to get rid of Atkins, then hopefully a complete overhaul of their current player development team follows.

 

If you squinted the past couple of years, you wouldn't have seen Schneider, Horwitz or Leo either as future big league contributors either.

[AMS528]

Can you call it luck if they keep doing it? lol

 

Boring boot cut fan Ross Atkins, leave it to him to create the most boring farm system ever, which just kind of pathetically and unceremoniously drips AAAA players into the big leagues where they have surprisingly good projections and performance

 

Add Clement to the list too

 

Excited for 2025 when Barger and Wil Robertson emerge in June as 2 WAR talents

 

Clement is 28 and is like a possible 1 WAR bench player. Which is useful, but whatever. His walk rate is 2%.

 

I said this earlier in the year but Schneider is absolutely someone who could be a 2-2.5 WAR ok option as a starter, which is currently what is playing as, or he could fall apart in a year. He has a profile that strikes me as very precarious. Cavan Biggio had two good years of performance before things fell apart for him.

 

I think Horwitz strikes me as having a higher floor than Schneider, with his lack of strikeouts and very good walk rate. If he really is potentially decent at 2B, and the very small sample size stats seem to be fine with him so far, then he could produce some great value.

 

Too early at this point to say what we have in Jimenez and Barger, but it would be nice if one of them turned out, especially Jimenez if we're getting rid of Bo.

[glory]

Clement is 28 and is like a possible 1 WAR bench player. Which is useful, but whatever. His walk rate is 2%.

 

I said this earlier in the year but Schneider is absolutely someone who could be a 2-2.5 WAR ok option as a starter, which is currently what is playing as, or he could fall apart in a year. He has a profile that strikes me as very precarious. Cavan Biggio had two good years of performance before things fell apart for him.

 

I think Horwitz strikes me as having a higher floor than Schneider, with his lack of strikeouts and very good walk rate. If he really is potentially decent at 2B, and the very small sample size stats seem to be fine with him so far, then he could produce some great value.

 

Too early at this point to say what we have in Jimenez and Barger, but it would be nice if one of them turned out, especially Jimenez if we're getting rid of Bo.

 

I tend to agree. DS should absolutely be playing everyday on this sad sack team, but by no means is he a lock to be a 2-3 WAR long term. For me, the players with the best chance of sticking as good non-star MLB starters are Horwitz at 2B and Jimenez at SS. Horwitz loses a lot of his shine at 1B. I'm conflicted on Barger. If he still had his 2022 skill set, then I'd be a lot more intrigued by him as he seems to have good exit velo. He needs to trade approaches with DS or something. There's also a question of which position he should be playing long term.

[Terminator]

Clement is starting to get a little more interesting to me.

 

The BB rate is obviously low but so is the K rate and he seems to have unlocked some power by pulling dat ball.

 

I think Fangraphs might be selling him short on his fWAR too. His OAA (which Fangraphs relies on for defense) at 3B has been bad with the Jays, but that could simply be because of positioning. With his previous teams he graded out very well with OAA at 3B and his other defensive metrics are fine. He seems to pass the eye test too. His bWAR is 1.5 right now.

[Laika]

Clement is 28 and is like a possible 1 WAR bench player. Which is useful, but whatever. His walk rate is 2%.

 

I said this earlier in the year but Schneider is absolutely someone who could be a 2-2.5 WAR ok option as a starter, which is currently what is playing as, or he could fall apart in a year. He has a profile that strikes me as very precarious. Cavan Biggio had two good years of performance before things fell apart for him.

 

I think Horwitz strikes me as having a higher floor than Schneider, with his lack of strikeouts and very good walk rate. If he really is potentially decent at 2B, and the very small sample size stats seem to be fine with him so far, then he could produce some great value.

 

Too early at this point to say what we have in Jimenez and Barger, but it would be nice if one of them turned out, especially Jimenez if we're getting rid of Bo.

 

Clement's full season pace is already better than 1 WAR. Something like 1.8

[AMS528]

Clement's full season pace is already better than 1 WAR. Something like 1.8

 

I wasn't clear but I didn't mean over like 162 games. Just as a bench piece that gets a decent number of starts. Which really is useful but not very exciting.

[Laika]

right

 

his defense has not been as steady/good as I had hoped

 

not sure if he just has some inconsistencies or actually has the yips and is error prone

[Joltin Joe]

This is just brutal. I know there's been some bad teams over the years, but it becomes all the more boring to watch when there's NO offense. At least when the team sucked before there would be guys like Frank Thomas who you could root for and make for an interesting story line. I'm sorry I just can't stand to watch 1 more minute of Ernie Clement, Dalton Varsho, Bo Bichette or any of these other limp bat hacks.

Probably 2013. All that hype of a great off season then a total flop.

 

RA Dickey, Josh Johnson and those trades.

[L54]

I cannot see anything but pain

 

The farm is bad. They are doing an excellent job of almost turning players into big leaguers, but just falling short. Instead everyone is a platoon corner outfielder or second baseman who can play first with mildly interesting skills. The most vanilla farm system in the MLB

[L54]

Agreed. We're actually quite lucky that Schneider, Leo and Horwitz look like MLB contributors, or the outlook would be even worse.

 

I’m skeptical of Schneider at this point. Leo looks like a stout little back up infielder. Horwitz I like the best but he’s gotta be able to play second to have much value

[Brownie19]

I’m skeptical of Schneider at this point. Leo looks like a stout little back up infielder. Horwitz I like the best but he’s gotta be able to play second to have much value

 

Yeah - I'm with you on that one friendo.