The Ship is Sinking

[wilko]

Can we merge this thread with the Positivity thread?

[Laika]

Buy low on Atkins.

 

Extend him for 5 more years. $60,000 annual salary.

[BigCecil]

Keep the band together. Extend Atkins, Bo & Vlad low and keep the "era" alive. "5 more years! 5 more years!"

[Spanky99]

LOL. Well he writes essays like me sometimes so its hard to tell. I usually agree with Max and you ultimately, even though I'm much more glass half empty. Just my nature.

 

No s***, lol

[Spanky99]

Keep the band together. Extend Atkins, Bo & Vlad low and keep the "era" alive. "5 more years! 5 more years!"

 

lmao

[max silver]

I think first 81 gms is fine and if its clear we are for real, go Jays. That won't improve his past D & D record though.

 

This deadline is absolutely critical as some of our assets only diminish on an aggressive curve past that (think when we got Berrios or when Soto was first dealt). He is not the right leader for that. I don't want to 2023 LAA deadline it. Its nothing personal - just business.

 

I think the drafting and development has been a bit of a mixed bag. I'll absolutely agree it ultimately hasn't been good enough, but at the same time it's likely the best it's been in decades as the minor league system has been graduating one really solid major league player per season. 2020 saw the graduation of Kirk, 2021 was Manoah, 2022 saw Moreno who was turned into Varsho, 2023 saw Schneider who is looking like a top of the order bat since his callup etc. Where the system takes a hit is in overall depth of the blue chip prospects, as although the team has been able to use the system to make trades for the likes of Berrios, Chapman, Varsho and others it hasn't had enough overall depth to allow trades for the true premium players, whether it's Jose Ramirez, Juan Soto or others. I can't help but think about how much better the offense would be if they would have had the available pitching depth to allow them to trade for Juan Soto in the offseason.

 

I recall reading that there might have been a massive extenuating circumstance in the 2023 Angels deadline in that they might not have been able to trade Ohtani based on the various marketing deals they had which were contingent on Ohtani being on the roster.

[connorp]

lmao

 

Decided to get a little crazy and add an “m”

[Brownie19]

If Shaprio/Atkins/Bo/Vlad end up with 0 playoff wins then the entire thing is a colossal failure and they all need to go live in a van down by the river.

 

If they win a single game. 1 playoff win, then I will look back fondly on this era and the genius management that made it all happen.

 

Playoff wins are all that matters. Look at the incredible job they are doing in Arizona. That FO knows how to win because they made the WS last year.

 

Just don't look at this year where:

 

- Carroll has turned into a pumpkin

- Moreno isn't improving

- Saurez is f***ing terrible

- Alek Thomas never developed (they ought to have kept Varsho)

- Pavin Smith is a bust

- $42M to LGJ

- Montgomery & Rodriguez have provided nothing

- Lawler is injured

- Druw Jones is a disaster

 

I wonder if their fans are looking in, wondering if their FO has a major issue with draft/development and/or making stupid FA decisions - or whether an 84 win team's run to the WS last year is masking issues for the time being.

Edited May 23, 2024 by Brownie19

[Spanky99]

Playoff wins are all that matters. Look at the incredible job they are doing in Arizona. That FO knows how to win because they made the WS last year.

 

Just don't look at this year where:

 

- Carroll has turned into a pumpkin

- Moreno isn't improving

- Saurez is f***ing terrible

- Alek Thomas never developed (they ought to have kept Varsho)

- Pavin Smith is a huge bust

- $42M to LGJ

- Montgomery & Rodriguez have provided nothing

- Lawler is injured

- Druw Jones is a disaster

 

I wonder if their fans are looking in, wondering if their FO has a major issue with draft/development and/or making stupid FA decisions - or whether an 84 win team's run to the WS last year is masking issues for the time being.

 

Winner winner, chicken dinner.

[Masterbather]

Playoff wins are all that matters. Look at the incredible job they are doing in Arizona. That FO knows how to win because they made the WS last year.

 

Just don't look at this year where:

 

- Carroll has turned into a pumpkin

- Moreno isn't improving

- Saurez is f***ing terrible

- Alek Thomas never developed (they ought to have kept Varsho)

- Pavin Smith is a huge bust

- $42M to LGJ

- Montgomery & Rodriguez have provided nothing

- Lawler is injured

- Druw Jones is a disaster

 

I wonder if their fans are looking in, wondering if their FO has a major issue with draft/development and/or making stupid FA decisions - or whether an 84 win team's run to the WS last year is masking issues for the time being.

 

And even with all that going wrong, they still have a better team than we do currently, with more upside. Especially Carroll.

[Brownie19]

https://www.thescore.com/mlb/news/2916516/what-trades-for-guerrero-bichette-could-look-like

 

A little fluff article on what we could potentially get for Bo and/or Vlad. This is more useless than a Jays24 post, but nevertheless, kind of entertaining to start thinking about what the future may look like.

[Laika]

https://www.thescore.com/mlb/news/2916516/what-trades-for-guerrero-bichette-could-look-like

 

A little fluff article on what we could potentially get for Bo and/or Vlad. This is more useless than a Jays24 post, but nevertheless, kind of entertaining to start thinking about what the future may look like.

 

The Vlad trades are hilarious

[Brownie19]

The Vlad trades are hilarious

 

For which side? I'm starting to lose track of the prospect scene...

 

I'm going to assume you think Vlad is completely useless and won't fetch anything of value.

[Laika]

yeah

[Brownie19]

yeah

 

Wicked. I was hoping our once generational talent with 1.5 years of control left would bring back the square root of f*** all. He just continues to f*** this team over sans lube.

[glory]

Vlad has turned into Luis Arraez with exit velocity. Not sure the Jays will get much of anything for him at $20m in 2024 and an increase on that in 2025. Other teams will almost certainly be interested in him to see if he's fixable once he's taken away from Don Mattingly (and he probably will be fixed by someone else sadly) but whether anyone will want to pay for that in terms of prospect capital is a different story. Bichette to the Dodgers seems like a perfect fit, just a matter of finding the right deal that both sides would agree to.

 

With that said, Vlad/Bo being traded by the deadline ain't happening.

[Eat My Shatkins]

And even with all that going wrong, they still have a better team than we do currently, with more upside. Especially Carroll.

 

That's not the point he was making.

[BigCecil]

And even with all that going wrong, they still have a better team than we do currently, with more upside. Especially Carroll.

 

Moreno is not a FA until 2029. It’s 2024. Wouldn’t panic just yet on his upside.

[Spanky99]

Moreno is not a FA until 2029. It’s 2024. Wouldn’t panic just yet on his upside.

 

Are you hoping for it, bro?

[BigCecil]

Are you hoping for it, bro?

 

Good question! Not once Ross is fired lol

[Terminator]

This team should only be proven right if Jays win a playoff game. If they don't team 'it's over, start over' is proven right.

 

Lots of things could happen. Jays could win 90 but the WC3 race heats up and Seattle wins out or something... Jays could sneak into WC3 with 83 wins and get beat by Cleveland 5-0 in a 2 game series. Of 11-9 blowing another lead.

 

If any of those happen team 'It's over' was right.

 

So Jays have to win a playofff game. Bo/Vlad finally get a playoff win. Even if they lose a 3 game series just the thrill of getting ready for an elimination game on an October thursday will be great. 1 playoff win is needed for Team It's Not over to be proven right.

 

There's a huge difference between the two "Teams" and this post misses it.

 

When one side says, "Don't Panic" after a 4-6 road trip to start the season it's not a prediction. When that same team gets another month and a half of information and then says "It's Not Over Yet" when the team is 3.5 games out of a playoff spot with 114 left, that's not a prediction either. It's simply a wait and see approach.

 

But the Debbie Downers can't handle this. Nothing other than unbridled rage and declaring Ross Atkins the worst GM in baseball will suffice. So they can go ahead and declare the season is over in April/May if they want but I don't think that's true yet. There's too much baseball left to be played and we still have a 20% chance to make the playoffs according to Fangraphs.

 

And I trust Fangraphs' analysis a whole lot more than the Debbie Downers, most of whom put barely any stock in advanced statistics and instead rely on their knee-jerk emotional reactions to what they see with their untrained eyes.

[L54]

There's a huge difference between the two "Teams" and this post misses it.

 

When one side says, "Don't Panic" after a 4-6 road trip to start the season it's not a prediction. When that same team gets another month and a half of information and then says "It's Not Over Yet" when the team is 3.5 games out of a playoff spot with 114 left, that's not a prediction either. It's simply a wait and see approach.

 

But the Debbie Downers can't handle this. Nothing other than unbridled rage and declaring Ross Atkins the worst GM in baseball will suffice. So they can go ahead and declare the season is over in April/May if they want but I don't think that's true yet. There's too much baseball left to be played and we still have a 20% chance to make the playoffs according to Fangraphs.

 

And I trust Fangraphs' analysis a whole lot more than the Debbie Downers, most of whom put barely any stock in advanced statistics and instead rely on their knee-jerk emotional reactions to what they see with their untrained eyes.

 

Everyone can handle wait and see lol

 

Has anyone advocated selling yet? A single person?

 

It’s good that you can read Fangraphs like everybody else, but it’s not particularly enlightening

 

I understand that your eye is untrained but that’s not the case for everybody here

[L54]

Spanky, max and Term have never really spoken to what they would consider a successful season

 

I wonder what their response would be?

[Terminator]

Everyone can handle wait and see lol

 

No they can't. They've been jumping down our throats calling us Atkins shills and rage posting after every loss. Some of it is understandable but it's gone way beyond being reasonable.

 

Has anyone advocated selling yet? A single person?

 

It's not about selling or not. I said that you and your minions have been saying the season is over and that's undoubtedly true. Here's one example from a few days ago.

You’re late to the party, it was over before today

 

It’s good that you can read Fangraphs like everybody else, but it’s not particularly enlightening

 

I actually don't think you can read a Fangraphs page properly. Or maybe you can and you just deny it's usefulness just as you said Statcast metrics don't translate into wins on the field.

 

I understand that your eye is untrained but that’s not the case for everybody here

 

Lmao I would love to know the scouting qualifications of the members of this board. A lot of PRO SCOUTS are full of s***, and that should be all you need to know about the "scouts" we have here.

[max silver]

Spanky, max and Term have never really spoken to what they would consider a successful season

 

I wonder what their response would be?

 

Why don't you go ahead and regale us with your obviously superior opinions first.

[Terminator]

Spanky, max and Term have never really spoken to what they would consider a successful season

 

I wonder what their response would be?

 

Sure we have. I would like to see Atkins' weaknesses improved upon.

 

I want the core and the role players alike to perform close to or above their standards while being backed by a capable onfield performance department.

 

I want the drafting and player development to be better.

 

1/3 of the way through and we aren't seeing these things. It needs to change in a hurry or Atkins' time will have run out. This last sentence is Team It's Not Over Yet in a nutshell.

[L54]

Why don't you go ahead and regale us with your obviously superior opinions first.

 

Making the playoffs

 

Missing the playoffs and not selling us a massive failure and fireable offense

 

You?

[L54]

Sure we have. I would like to see Atkins' weaknesses improved upon.

 

I want the core and the role players alike to perform close to or above their standards while being backed by a capable onfield performance department.

 

I want the drafting and player development to be better.

 

1/3 of the way through and we aren't seeing these things. It needs to change in a hurry or Atkins' time will have run out. This last sentence is Team It's Not Over Yet in a nutshell.

 

Objective measures

 

You sound like Atkins

 

“We’re doing a great job getting into hitters counts”

[L54]

How can drafting and development be a part of a successful 24 season?

[max silver]

Making the playoffs

 

Missing the playoffs and not selling us a massive failure and fireable offense

 

You?

 

We are basically in the same boat. The team's window appears as though it may be rapidly closing and the bare minimum I'd be happy with is at least making the playoffs. I'd far prefer to see the team finally perform in the playoffs and win a round or two.