The Ship is Sinking

[glory]

I think we all fell for Shapiro’s smooth talking. He’s done some good things for the org but almost none of it has been on the actual baseball side. It’s mostly been other things (renovations, Dunedin, getting Rogers to spend). His body of work with Cleveland when he was GM there was ass. Drafting was just as bad as what we’ve seen with Atkins (if not worse). The 2001 Indians drew 3.2m fans. Shapiro took over as GM from 2002-10, and in 2010 (his final year as GM) they drew 1.4m fans. Luckily the Jays had the payroll capacity to make up for Shapiro’s weaknesses because if they had a mid tier payroll from 2020-23, then this team probably doesn’t sniff the post season.

[Olerud363]

Realizing now I was wrong, and the 'no power bros' were right. They identified one of the Shaprio failure modes of which there is two for hitters.

 

Mode 1 - 'no power bro' - Roden, Horwitz, Kirk, now Vlad, Biggio, the Jace B. guy. THese guys might look good with their occasional .400 on base percentages but their ceiling is .250 hitter .350 on base and .350 slugging. No power bro. Vladdy is now a no power bro with hit .270 .370 .370. On base percentage = slugging but most 'no power bros' have a .320 on base, when facing good pitching, so .640 OPS does not cut it.

 

Mode 2 - 'no contact bro' Orelvis most years, Nimalla, Derek Fisher if you remember him, Grichuk mostly, Biggio. These guys all hit like J.P. Arencibia. ALl of them. Even if like Orelvis they look OK in their 7th year of minor league baseball (J.P. looked OK at age 23 or 24 in aaa) they eventually hit .190 with a .230 on base and .380 slugging despite 30 homners.

 

The Mark Shapiro 2 modes of prospect failure 'no power bro' and 'no contact bro'. I am betting with new bat speed stats they misuse it and we get many more 'no contact bros' and lose all our precious no power bros.

 

Biggio. He is both LOOOOOLLL

[AMS528]

These are the names of the prospects Atkins acquired during his selling in 2017-19: Teoscar Hernandez, Samad Taylor, Thomas Pannone, Santiago Espinal, Forrest Wall, Chad Spanberger, Bryan Baker, Billy McKinney, David Paulino, Hector Perez, Jacob Waguespack, Corey Copping, Julian Merryweather, Demi Orimoloye, Trent Thornton, Ronny Brito, Andrew Sopko, Juan De Paula, Edisson Gonzalez, Curtis Taylor, Simeon Woods Richardson, Anthony Kay, Thomas Hatch, Kyle Johnston, Derek Fisher.

 

Other than Teoscar and a season and a half of Espinal, that's a depressing list. Couldn't even turn any of those arms into useful relievers. The closest thing he's done to selling since then is trading Teo to the Mariners, and we will see if Macko turns into anything.

 

So to answer the question, no, Atkins is not the right man for the job.

 

Ok so nothing has made me feel more like Atkins needs to be fired than reading this list of prospect names.

 

My god, there's absolutely nothing there. Macko has not had numbers to make you think he's going to wind up anything more than an ok reliever either.

 

If you combine that, with the lack of drafting success, it really defines the way in which this team has failed. There were never any reinforcements to patch up the issues that would naturally come up, like a player regressing, or declining or not hitting their potential.

 

Every successful team has high level prospects that don't turn out, but they can plug those holes and we can't because of the above.

[MikeM3]

As soon as he targeted Anthony Kay who had the most dead zone fastball, it was over. Then Mitch White the God tier dead zone fastball followed.

[BigCecil]

I think we all fell for Shapiro’s smooth talking. He’s done some good things for the org but almost none of it has been on the actual baseball side. It’s mostly been other things (renovations, Dunedin, getting Rogers to spend). His body of work with Cleveland when he was GM there was ass. Drafting was just as bad as what we’ve seen with Atkins (if not worse). The 2001 Indians drew 3.2m fans. Shapiro took over as GM from 2002-10, and in 2010 (his final year as GM) they drew 1.4m fans. Luckily the Jays had the payroll capacity to make up for Shapiro’s weaknesses because if they had a mid tier payroll from 2020-23, then this team probably doesn’t sniff the post season.

 

Shapiro is a very smooth talking politician. 10 minutes into his 2023 post season talk he had resurrected both Ross and Schneider from the graves they dug themselves.

 

Blows me away some of the excuses I see for accountability. If he were a PM or a Premier, who make a small fraction of the money of these Execs and are actually responsible for important things, there would be far more heat. In PHI, BOS or NY markets, for example, there is no chance of this track record of failure delivering on commitments made years ago.

 

I don't know whats up with TOR based teams, but Shanahan and Shapiro have morphed into the same protected deity status.

[AMS528]

Shapiro is a very smooth talking politician. 10 minutes into his 2023 post season talk he had resurrected both Ross and Schneider from the graves they dug themselves.

 

Blows me away some of the excuses I see for accountability. If he were a PM or a Premier, who make a small fraction of the money of these Execs and are actually responsible for important things, there would be far more heat. In PHI, BOS or NY markets, for example, there is no chance of this track record of failure delivering on commitments made years ago.

 

I don't know whats up with TOR based teams, but Shanahan and Shapiro have morphed into the same protected deity status.

 

At least the Leafs have talent that performs in the regular season. I'd love to see Vladdy and Bo perform like Matthew/Nylander/Marner do in the regular season. Fake hope for the playoffs is better than wondering why you're generational hitting prospect can't hit.

[mphenhef]

 

2. Nimalla. If you want waves you need some guys like that to do exciting things at 18 (still 3 years away even if doing exciting things in low A). The Nimalla dissapointment just f***ing is representative of this front offices in ability to get exciting talent. The next Paul Dejong is not exicting.

 

Maybe Bonilla is that guy, although still only in the FCL

[BigCecil]

At least the Leafs have talent that performs in the regular season. I'd love to see Vladdy and Bo perform like Matthew/Nylander/Marner do in the regular season. Fake hope for the playoffs is better than wondering why you're generational hitting prospect can't hit.

 

92,91,89 wins the last 3 seasons.

 

Jays have lots of issues but Vlad is the least of them at the moment with a 125 wRC+. Bo has always been flawed and I never wanted to pay a premium for him as a SS on a long term deal. His reliance on BABIP, with low BB high chase rates was never attractive for an expensive deal.

 

Could be worse. Could be the Rays loosing their generational talent SS you just signed under market long term, and have no asset to get value from.

 

For me, its more about the upcoming deadline and off season now, and what happens next.

 

The cake for this season was baked in '23 and last off season. Its angel food cake.

[Olerud363]

Maybe Bonilla is that guy, although still only in the FCL

 

He is seemingly hitting very well but has a 0 to 8 bb/k rate in the FCL. That is not good.

 

Fcuk this entire franchise.

 

Daulton Varsh (best player) - hitting .208

Vladimir Guerrero Jr. (260 pound dude with elite exit vs) - somehow just raking the 115 mph singles and a .370 slugging, his ISO is like .100 and it used to be .300

George Springer - at an age where Bautista was still prime Bautista he is like half of 2017 Bautista... like his OPS is below where is slugging used to be.

Bo Bichetee - OK. Hitting .220?

Kirkie - a .190 hitter with no power

 

f*** off. Someone said. How could you predict any of this? It's not Shapiro's fault?

 

NO. That's not how it works. If it is something that has a low chance of being predictable or happening by chance there is a cause...

 

If all your 5 kids have an IQ of 60 and you and your wife are reasonably smart, it's unlikely it is an unpredictable random thing, but more likely it has a cause like lead in the pipes, or you both are cousins to each other!

[wilko]

You guys want Kim Ng to be the GM? The woman that ran the Marlins? Lmaooooo

 

Wow sexist AND racist!

[Terminator]

Atkins, perhaps the worst GM in baseball according to some, got a setup man and a platoon OF from Kim Ng for Joe Panik and he got her to throw in some money on top of it.

[Olerud363]

Atkins, perhaps the worst GM in baseball according to some, got a setup man and a platoon OF from Kim Ng for Joe Panik and he got her to throw in some money on top of it.

 

Come to think of it Atkins also got two (at times) useful relievers for Jordan 'no power bro' Groshans.

 

It would be an insult to the hard working members of this message board to hire a lady that traded for one of the most notorious members of the 'no power bro' club.

[Jays24]

Atkins, perhaps the worst GM in baseball according to some, got a setup man and a platoon OF from Kim Ng for Joe Panik and he got her to throw in some money on top of it.

 

Not saying anything about Ng as a GM but that was clearly a money motivated move from ownership. It's usually clear when the GM is forced to make moves because of a penny pinching GM.

[Terminator]

These are the names of the prospects Atkins acquired during his selling in 2017-19: Teoscar Hernandez, Samad Taylor, Thomas Pannone, Santiago Espinal, Forrest Wall, Chad Spanberger, Bryan Baker, Billy McKinney, David Paulino, Hector Perez, Jacob Waguespack, Corey Copping, Julian Merryweather, Demi Orimoloye, Trent Thornton, Ronny Brito, Andrew Sopko, Juan De Paula, Edisson Gonzalez, Curtis Taylor, Simeon Woods Richardson, Anthony Kay, Thomas Hatch, Kyle Johnston, Derek Fisher.

 

Other than Teoscar and a season and a half of Espinal, that's a depressing list. Couldn't even turn any of those arms into useful relievers. The closest thing he's done to selling since then is trading Teo to the Mariners, and we will see if Macko turns into anything.

 

So to answer the question, no, Atkins is not the right man for the job.

 

Lol geeze

 

On the flip side, he's never really traded anyone who has panned out either.

 

Can't trade away any good prospects that you'll regret when you can't draft and develop them either.

 

Insert the guy tapping his head meme

[jaysblue]

Lol geeze

 

On the flip side, he's never really traded anyone who has panned out either.

 

Can't trade away any good prospects that you'll regret when you can't draft and develop them either.

 

Insert the guy tapping his head meme

 

LOL give it up man.

 

Where are your pals Brownie, Spanky and EatMyShatkins? They've left you out to dry in this thread lol.

 

Nobody on here said Atkins was the worst GM in baseball. A lot of rational posters acknowledge he has done a lot of a great things, but overall the end results are what matter. This team under him hasn't gone to the next level and as an organization have disappointed with drafting and player development and we're probably at a point now where a new voice/vision is needed to help retool this team moving forward.

 

Enough praising Atkins as some sort of Godly GM. He's been good, but not good enough unfortunately.

[Terminator]

LOL give it up man.

 

Where are your pals Brownie, Spanky and EatMyShatkins? They've left you out to dry in this thread lol.

 

Nobody on here said Atkins was the worst GM in baseball. A lot of rational posters acknowledge he has done a lot of a great things, but overall the end results are what matter. This team under him hasn't gone to the next level and as an organization have disappointed with drafting and player development and we're probably at a point now where a new voice/vision is needed to help retool this team moving forward.

 

Enough praising Atkins as some sort of Godly GM. He's been good, but not good enough unfortunately.

 

Can you read? Glory posted a brilliant and thorough takedown of Atkins and I added to it by making light of the fact that he can't draft and develop. It's been my criticism of him forever.

[L54]

Come to think of it Atkins also got two (at times) useful relievers for Jordan 'no power bro' Groshans.

 

It would be an insult to the hard working members of this message board to hire a lady that traded for one of the most notorious members of the 'no power bro' club.

 

He also got two good pitchers for Big Rowdy

[L54]

Remember when everyone said Mark didn’t mean waves of good players, he just meant waves of players in general

 

How’s that going?

[Olerud363]

He also got two good pitchers for Big Rowdy

 

Rowdy has power bro. 35 homers one year. Hit one 530 feet over the Ted William seat in Fenway once. Though they later said that actually didn't happen and it was only 430 feet and didn't get near Ted William's seat... still dudes got power.

 

So Atkins traded the two bad prototypes 'no power bro' and 'no contact bro' for useful things.

[Omar]

I posted earlier that the Jays don't just need a rebuild but a paradigm shift.

 

To that end, Farhan Zaidi's contract ends with the Giants in 2026. Rogers should throw money at him and lure him back to Canada and the Jays.

 

The Toronto Blue Jays should be the Dodgers of the north in terms of team success and being perennial contenders for the World series. Zaidi can do that.

[Terminator]

I posted earlier that the Jays don't just need a rebuild but a paradigm shift.

 

To that end, Farhan Zaidi's contract ends with the Giants in 2026. Rogers should throw money at him and lure him back to Canada and the Jays.

 

The Toronto Blue Jays should be the Dodgers of the north in terms of team success and being perennial contenders for the World series. Zaidi can do that.

 

I like Zaidi but I think he's got similar drafting and development issues as Atkins doesn't he?

[hanton]

I posted earlier that the Jays don't just need a rebuild but a paradigm shift.

 

To that end, Farhan Zaidi's contract ends with the Giants in 2026. Rogers should throw money at him and lure him back to Canada and the Jays.

 

The Toronto Blue Jays should be the Dodgers of the north in terms of team success and being perennial contenders for the World series. Zaidi can do that.

 

Giants fans can't stand him, he's basically Atkins with a phd. Many strange moves.

[max silver]

I like Zaidi but I think he's got similar drafting and development issues as Atkins doesn't he?

 

That largely feels like it would be a sideways move at best.

[Omar]

I like Zaidi but I think he's got similar drafting and development issues as Atkins doesn't he?

 

Yes, good point. There has been criticism there and warranted. His drafting the with the Giants has been suspect. I once saw a graphic from a few years ago of drafted players who made it to the majors and the Giants were at the bottom (I think the Jays were middling). I see Zaidi more in the President/COO role and that he would bring in a new gm. Unlike most on this board I don't mind Atkins and think he is highly competent, I put more of the blame on Shapiro as he sets the orgs philosophy on team building.

[Omar]

Giants fans can't stand him, he's basically Atkins with a phd. Many strange moves.

 

You got something against egg heads?

 

[hanton]

You got something against egg heads?

 

 

I really hope Akins is gone before the all star break, you know he's in trouble when BNS is discussing it

[Omar]

I really hope Akins is gone before the all star break, you know he's in trouble when BNS is discussing it[/QUOte]

 

I don't know if they will fire the general manager in season. How often has that happened in the past? I could see him being reassigned in the off season to something like international player development to give him a soft landing somewhere else in the future.

[hanton]

I don't know if they will fire the general manager in season. How often has that happened in the past? I could see him being reassigned in the off season to something like international player development to give him a soft landing somewhere else in the future.

 

I don't know if gm's have been fired during the season but it shouldn't matter otherwise do you allow him to trade Kikuchi? or what if the Dodgers come asking for Bo?

[Omar]

I don't know if gm's have been fired during the season but it shouldn't matter otherwise do you allow him to trade Kikuchi? or what if the Dodgers come asking for Bo?

 

Well we're basically ten games out of first in division with only seven weeks of baseball being played. Something's got to give.

[Spanky99]

You got something against egg heads?

 

 

lmao... I'm out!!!