General Blue Jays Discussion Thread (2024)

[Spanky99]

Great chance they will trade Bo and probably Bassitt too. Btw if they really only have 23M left to spend, mean they didnÂ’t really had the intention to sign Soto at 700M. Also, with Soto money they saved, they can easily get Burnes at 40, and Alonso or Bregman for 30. Which is a lot better than Soto alone.

 

There's different parameters dogg.

[Omar]

He could be the Jays best, and perhaps only, chance to lock up a 5 WAR player.

 

They can sign the 3 and 4 WAR guys, but the star and superstar players are always going to have major interest surrounding them from the big spending teams.

 

I'd give him 400-450M in present day value and if he wants more than that then I would see if he would bite on deferrals to get it there.

 

Why the big change of heart? A couple of months ago you wouldn't give him a sniff for $300M.

[Terminator]

Why the big change of heart? A couple of months ago you wouldn't give him a sniff for $300M.

 

That's not true. I've been saying Devers money (10 for 313.5) for months.

 

Prior to his big bounce back season, yeah I was leaning toward under 200, as was the conventional wisdom at the time. Passan was even saying the same thing. But a big season and the market changing is also going to change what I think he can/should get.

[Spanky99]

Why the big change of heart? A couple of months ago you wouldn't give him a sniff for $300M.

 

Market?

[Spanky99]

That's not true

 

This is true as I and the Sheriff were pretty much locked at the hip on money. Market's changed, unfortunately.

[The_DH]

Back in the Beeston days, the Jays used to structure contracts a little different (than other teams) for tax and other reasons. I think Jack Morris had "conditions" built into his contract to circumvent a potential divorce. The condition was something like showing up for team photos or something stupidly easy to reach. I'm sure something similar could be set up for any free agents or long term contract to turn it into a non-Canadian income basis. But contracts like that take a lot of work and both sides have to be working on it.

[Omar]

That's not true. I've been saying Devers money (10 for 313.5) for months.

 

Prior to his big bounce back season, yeah I was leaning toward under 200, as was the conventional wisdom at the time. Passan was even saying the same thing. But a big season and the market changing is also going to change what I think he can/should get.

 

Maybe I'm remembering wrong but I recall discussing Soto getting $400M and you saying something along the lines of Vladdy only getting 60% of what Soto will get. Back in Sept or Oct. I recall because I challenged you on what Vladdy would get. Oh well....

 

If the Jays don't sign Vladdy someone will back up the truck next fall for $500M+

[Chappy]

14 for sure. Yet, I was told he wants 10/400+. Believe what you will.

 

The way salaries are now in general, $40 mil per season over 10 years isn’t that bad if Vladdy doesn’t turn into a pumpkin. Signing him probably helps attract other free agents who otherwise wouldn’t even give them the time of day.

[Terminator]

Maybe I'm remembering wrong but I recall discussing Soto getting $400M and you saying something along the lines of Vladdy only getting 60% of what Soto will get. Back in Sept or Oct. I recall because I challenged you on what Vladdy would get. Oh well....

 

Ok well 60% of 765 million is 459 million. That’s probably close to what an extension looks like. Sound like I was right on track the entire time

[max silver]

Ok well 60% of 765 million is 459 million. That’s probably close to what an extension looks like. Sound like I was right on track the entire time

 

It would be a massive gamble to hand out this kind of money but given the current state of the organization I'd be willing to bite the bullet here. The front office has been a little risk averse at times and very strict when it comes to their valuations on their own players and free agents so we shall see if they are willing to step out of their comfort zone.

[Delete_My_Account_Thanks]

Hey all, I have zero hope until they cut the head off the snake. Shapiro has to go, NOW. New Prez, new GM, new development system.

 

We are currently the laughing stock of baseball, no one takes our front office seriously. We don't have a single prospect you can say seriously has a chance of being a star. Imagine AA had stayed and been allowed to have this much payroll. At least that guy could build a farm system.

 

Made the massive Marlins deal for 2013, was able to rebuild the farm to grab JD before 2015 season, and then acquire Price, Tulo, and all the others for 2015's magical run. That guy could build a farm system quickly.

 

These clowns have had 9 years and it's in worse shape than when they got here. How dare Shapiro criticize AA's farm system. How f***ing dare he.

 

These are the darkest days of the franchise of my lifetime, and I've been a fan since 1988. All of my 40-something buddies feel the same way. Fed up if this gross incompetence.

 

I won't spend a f***ing dime on this team until they get rid of Shapiro/Atkins and rebuild this team with a competent front office.

 

That is all.

 

/End rant

[max silver]

Hey all, I have zero hope until they cut the head off the snake. Shapiro has to go, NOW. New Prez, new GM, new development system.

 

We are currently the laughing stock of baseball, no one takes our front office seriously. We don't have a single prospect you can say seriously has a chance of being a star. Imagine AA had stayed and been allowed to have this much payroll. At least that guy could build a farm system.

 

Made the massive Marlins deal for 2013, was able to rebuild the farm to grab JD before 2015 system, and then acquire Price, Tulo, and all the others for 2015's magical run. That guy could build a farm system quickly.

 

These clowns have had 9 years and it's in worse shape than when they got here. How dare Shapiro criticize AA's farm system. How f***ing dare he.

 

These are the darkest days of the franchise of my lifetime, and I've been a fan since 1988. All of my 40-something buddies feel the same way. Fed up if this gross incompetence.

 

I won't spend a f***ing dime on this team until they get rid of Shapiro/Atkins and rebuild this team with a competent front office.

 

That is all.

 

/End rant

 

AA wasn't able to simultaneously have a competitive team and a good farm system at the same time, which is exactly the same issue the current front office has eventually ran into. It's pretty disengenous to suggest they never built a good farm system as it was top 5 or so at peak and still in the top 10 as late as the 2021 season. AA left the team with a bottom to mid 20's rated farm system after the 2015 trade deadline, so don't pretend like he was some sort of drafting and developing genius either, aside from astutely gaming the compensation system to the point that MLB changed the rules.

 

If you think the disastrous Marlins deal is some sort of feather in AA's cap then I don't know what to tell you. It's not hard to make a case that the 2015 trade deadline acquisitions were the primary reason the team turned into a short window team. It was a massive gamble that ultimately didn't pay off. Trading Reyes for Tulo was fine in the short term but ultimately traded one long term problem for a different long term problem. Trading the type of assets it took to acquire Price could have likely returned a longer term asset to the team as well.

 

The team just made the playoffs 3 times in 5 seasons in the current window. In the stated timeline you listed starting from 1988 the team didn't even sniff the playoffs for something like 27 years, yet right now is the worst time in the franchise's history after a single bad season? Okie dokie then.

[Eat My Shatkins]

 

The team just made the playoffs 3 times in 5 seasons in the current window. In the stated timeline you listed starting from 1988 the team didn't even sniff the playoffs for something like 27 years, yet right now is the worst time in the franchise's history after a single bad season? Okie dokie then.

 

No kidding. Worst timeline in the Jays history? LMAO c'mon

 

And they made the playoffs three out of five seasons with a pretty weak core to build around. Bo and Vlad are poor defensively, prone to mental errors and are very inconsistent with the offense, and can be very easy for pitchers to exploit their weaknesses.

 

This FO is far from perfect, I realize that, but people whine about them like they just missed the post season 5 out of 5 years with prime Ohtani and Trout to build around.

[Spanky99]

Back in the Beeston days, the Jays used to structure contracts a little different (than other teams) for tax and other reasons. I think Jack Morris had "conditions" built into his contract to circumvent a potential divorce. The condition was something like showing up for team photos or something stupidly easy to reach. I'm sure something similar could be set up for any free agents or long term contract to turn it into a non-Canadian income basis. But contracts like that take a lot of work and both sides have to be working on it.

 

Wat?

[Spanky99]

Hey all, I have zero hope until they cut the head off the snake. Shapiro has to go, NOW. New Prez, new GM, new development system.

 

We are currently the laughing stock of baseball, no one takes our front office seriously. We don't have a single prospect you can say seriously has a chance of being a star. Imagine AA had stayed and been allowed to have this much payroll. At least that guy could build a farm system.

 

Made the massive Marlins deal for 2013, was able to rebuild the farm to grab JD before 2015 season, and then acquire Price, Tulo, and all the others for 2015's magical run. That guy could build a farm system quickly.

 

These clowns have had 9 years and it's in worse shape than when they got here. How dare Shapiro criticize AA's farm system. How f***ing dare he.

 

These are the darkest days of the franchise of my lifetime, and I've been a fan since 1988. All of my 40-something buddies feel the same way. Fed up if this gross incompetence.

 

I won't spend a f***ing dime on this team until they get rid of Shapiro/Atkins and rebuild this team with a competent front office.

 

That is all.

 

/End rant

 

lulz

[L54]

Hey all, I have zero hope until they cut the head off the snake. Shapiro has to go, NOW. New Prez, new GM, new development system.

 

We are currently the laughing stock of baseball, no one takes our front office seriously. We don't have a single prospect you can say seriously has a chance of being a star. Imagine AA had stayed and been allowed to have this much payroll. At least that guy could build a farm system.

 

Made the massive Marlins deal for 2013, was able to rebuild the farm to grab JD before 2015 season, and then acquire Price, Tulo, and all the others for 2015's magical run. That guy could build a farm system quickly.

 

These clowns have had 9 years and it's in worse shape than when they got here. How dare Shapiro criticize AA's farm system. How f***ing dare he.

 

These are the darkest days of the franchise of my lifetime, and I've been a fan since 1988. All of my 40-something buddies feel the same way. Fed up if this gross incompetence.

 

I won't spend a f***ing dime on this team until they get rid of Shapiro/Atkins and rebuild this team with a competent front office.

 

That is all.

 

/End rant

 

Welcome to the board. I feel the exact same way as you do.

 

Don’t mind the posters who laugh or criticize your point of view, they’re a little late to the party. Only now are they beginning to realize Atkins is butt cheeks

[Delete_My_Account_Thanks]

lulz

 

I've lurked here long enough to know not to take your bait, chum.

[Eat My Shatkins]

Welcome to the board. I feel the exact same way as you do.

 

Don’t mind the posters who laugh or criticize your point of view, they’re a little late to the party. Only now are they beginning to realize Atkins is butt cheeks

 

So you agree that this is the darkest days of the franchise since 1988? Three 90~ win seasons and three post season appearances?

 

I dunno, I remember much darker days

[Spanky99]

I've lurked here long enough to know not to take your bait, chum.

 

Nice to meet you el campeon.

[Spanky99]

So you agree that this is the darkest days of the franchise since 1988? Three 90~ win seasons and three post season appearances?

 

I dunno, I remember much darker days

 

He's simply a contrarian, it feels good for the man.

[L54]

Case in point

[L54]

So you agree that this is the darkest days of the franchise since 1988? Three 90~ win seasons and three post season appearances?

 

I dunno, I remember much darker days

 

Bro dark days in the sense of you just watched five years of this core that was supposed to be the next great chapter in Jays history slip through your fingers like a handful of sand

[Delete_My_Account_Thanks]

AA wasn't able to simultaneously have a competitive team and a good farm system at the same time, which is exactly the same issue the current front office has eventually ran into. It's pretty disengenous to suggest they never built a good farm system as it was top 5 or so at peak and still in the top 10 as late as the 2021 season. AA left the team with a bottom to mid 20's rated farm system after the 2015 trade deadline, so don't pretend like he was some sort of drafting and developing genius either, aside from astutely gaming the compensation system to the point that MLB changed the rules.

 

If you think the disastrous Marlins deal is some sort of feather in AA's cap then I don't know what to tell you. It's not hard to make a case that the 2015 trade deadline acquisitions were the primary reason the team turned into a short window team. It was a massive gamble that ultimately didn't pay off. Trading Reyes for Tulo was fine in the short term but ultimately traded one long term problem for a different long term problem. Trading the type of assets it took to acquire Price could have likely returned a longer term asset to the team as well.

 

The team just made the playoffs 3 times in 5 seasons in the current window. In the stated timeline you listed starting from 1988 the team didn't even sniff the playoffs for something like 27 years, yet right now is the worst time in the franchise's history after a single bad season? Okie dokie then.

 

They would have made the playoffs under JPR several times with the current playoff format.

 

As for the Marlins trade, EVERYONE had the Jays as WS favorites afterwards. Injuries happened. It was the most exciting time period for us in years when it happened.

 

This IS the worst period in my fandom and sorry but it's not close. All of my buddies feel the same way and we've been hardos for years. I'm not arguing the Ash and JP years weren't tough but I always felt like there was something to look forward to. There is no light at the end of the tunnel. It's pitch black now because 2 of the worst executives in Toronto sports history have f***ed it up worse than anyone could have imagined. And they are smug as s*** about and act like they are smarter than everyone else. They clearly are not.

 

As for the 23 years with no playoffs, (not 27 but good try) we usually had really good prospects, many who became stars (Delgado, Green, Wells, Stewart, Halladay, Escobar, Carpenter) and acquired guys like Clemens, Canseco, Cruz Jr, Burnett, Rolen, Glaus, etc. despite playing with a payroll 1/3 of the Yankees.

 

Now we have a payroll that lets us compete with the big boys yet we don't have the team to match it.

 

There is no Delgado, Green, Wells, Halladay coming. There were players who could have been them but our development system failed them. They haven't signed Vlad or Bo to team friendly deals like they should have.

 

We lead the league in fat players and that's about it.

 

These guys have completely f***ed this team up.

 

If you want to hang your hat on 3 s***** wildcard spots without a win in an expanded playoffs where we papered over our drafting/development mistakes by jacking payroll through the roof well that's great. My grandmother could have built a playoff team with cheap Vlad and Bo and $230 million.

 

As for me, I'm not wasting any more of my money or summers on this team until I feel there is a light at the end of the tunnel.

 

If they fire Shatkins tomorrow and hire a competent GM and start a proper rebuild I'm right back in, but I can't waste any more time following these losers.

 

I can't believe some of you are still desperately believing in Shapiro and Atkins. It's over, they have failed. Miserably.

[Delete_My_Account_Thanks]

Bro dark days in the sense of you just watched five years of this core that was supposed to be the next great chapter in Jays history slip through your fingers like a handful of sand

 

Agree 100%. It's a dark, long tunnel right now, and I can't see a light at the end.

[L54]

Holy s*** give this man the mic

[Eat My Shatkins]

Bro dark days in the sense of you just watched five years of this core that was supposed to be the next great chapter in Jays history slip through your fingers like a handful of sand

 

Ok, but that's as much on the core as it is on Shapiro and Atkins.

 

I mean they won 89 games in 2023 despite core player Vlad posting 1.3 WAR. If he doesn't sped the whole season being a complete donkey at the plate maybe the don't have to play the wild card series, where they got eliminated with him getting picked off 2nd base as the trail runner.

[max silver]

They would have made the playoffs under JPR several times with the current playoff format.

 

As for the Marlins trade, EVERYONE had the Jays as WS favorites afterwards. Injuries happened. It was the most exciting time period for us in years when it happened.

 

This IS the worst period in my fandom and sorry but it's not close. All of my buddies feel the same way and we've been hardos for years. I'm not arguing the Ash and JP years weren't tough but I always felt like there was something to look forward to. There is no light at the end of the tunnel. It's pitch black now because 2 of the worst executives in Toronto sports history have f***ed it up worse than anyone could have imagined. And they are smug as s*** about and act like they are smarter than everyone else. They clearly are not.

 

As for the 23 years with no playoffs, (not 27 but good try) we usually had really good prospects, many who became stars (Delgado, Green, Wells, Stewart, Halladay, Escobar, Carpenter) and acquired guys like Clemens, Canseco, Cruz Jr, Burnett, Rolen, Glaus, etc. despite playing with a payroll 1/3 of the Yankees.

 

Now we have a payroll that lets us compete with the big boys yet we don't have the team to match it.

 

There is no Delgado, Green, Wells, Halladay coming. There were players who could have been them but our development system failed them. They haven't signed Vlad or Bo to team friendly deals like they should have.

 

We lead the league in fat players and that's about it.

 

These guys have completely f***ed this team up.

 

If you want to hang your hat on 3 s***** wildcard spots without a win in an expanded playoffs where we papered over our drafting/development mistakes by jacking payroll through the roof well that's great. My grandmother could have built a playoff team with cheap Vlad and Bo and $230 million.

 

As for me, I'm not wasting any more of my money or summers on this team until I feel there is a light at the end of the tunnel.

 

If they fire Shatkins tomorrow and hire a competent GM and start a proper rebuild I'm right back in, but I can't waste any more time following these losers.

 

I can't believe some of you are still desperately believing in Shapiro and Atkins. It's over, they have failed. Miserably.

 

Yay a bunch of semi coherent rage posts. I probably shouldn't waste my time as much of this is false and/or completely illogical but here goes nothing.

 

You are making an assumption that's incorrect. I've actually gone back and looked and JPR's teams would not have made the playoffs based on the current format and end of season record. Perhaps they could have added at the trade deadline if there were more spots available, but you can't simply assume they would have made the necessary additions, especially with how cheap Rogers was early on.

 

Apparently I need to explain to you that it's bad business to trade real assets for players on expensive free agent contracts. The team trading for these players wouldn't even get to enjoy the first and most likely best season of the entire deal as that had already passed. Compounding the fact that this was an awful trade was something that came out years later in that the centerpiece of the trade failed his physical, and unsurprisingly provided essentially no value to the Blue Jays. That's nice the Blue Jays were world series favorites, but we all know how badly that trade actually turned out in reality.

 

I've been a fan for approximately the same period of time as you as I believe I started following the team closely in 89. I simply don't share the same viewpoint that this is the worst period of their existence. You must have been asleep for the entirety of the interbrew years when the budget was slashed, or missed the horrible period where Gord Ash was GM, or been stuck under a rock in the early Rogers years when they refused to even let the team add at the trade deadline when they were semi competitive. There's no need to be so melodramatic. Team ownership has opened up the pocketbook for the team to spend up to the luxury tax and beyond.

 

That's cool your grandmother could have built a competitive team and that doesn't feel remotely like a gross exaggeration like your silly opinion that this is the darkest time in the team's history. Maybe she plays fantasy baseball or something that gave her MLB GM chops.

 

You don't seem to realize that it takes the players actually being willing to sign a team friendly deal for it to occur. There is literally nothing to indicate that either of Bo or Vlad were remotely interested/willing to sign these types of deals in the first place or it would have most likely happened by now. This may come as a shock to you but teams can't force their players to forego free agency and sign team friendly deals, some players simply aren't interested in doing so. Vlad seems to be similar to Soto in that he was always going to be on his natural talent. Perhaps the team should have taken the same tact as Washington when they traded Soto, but the Blue Jays were in the midst of a competitive window so it's understandable they chose to hang onto their best player in hopes of getting him signed long term.

 

That's cool that you thought that the organization was in a better place for the entirety of the mid-late 90's, entire decade of the 2000's and first half of the 2010 decade based on having some good prospects in their system. That's obviously far more important than actually building teams that were competitive and qualified for playoff spots.

[Terminator]

I can't believe some of you are still desperately believing in Shapiro and Atkins. It's over, they have failed. Miserably.

 

No one here likes them and everyone wanted Atkins fired. You're arguing with straw men.

[Delete_My_Account_Thanks]

No one here likes them and everyone wanted Atkins fired. You're arguing with straw men.

 

I'm sorry but that's just not the case. I've read this board enough over the past year or so to know that some posters seemed willing to go through a wall for this front office.

 

A lot has changed, but those like jaysblue and jaysfan or whatever his/her name is have been calling out the front office the longest and took a lot of flak from certain posters. I don't want to start an argument with those posters who turned out to be wrong.

 

But max silver and Brownie are still defending this management.

 

And Max, you seem to remember things differently than me. Back then it was tough, but there was more hope and we had better players. And you are wrong about no playoffs under current playoff format.

 

in 1998 AND 1999 (under Ash I acknowledge) Jays would have won the wild card under the current format.

 

And in 2003 they would have tied for the final wild card spot.

 

2000 and 2006 they would have been 2 games out. 5 games out in 2007. 3 games out in 2010.

 

So I would argue we had more to cheer for in that era than you seem to remember. And doing all of that on a show string budget against the big bad Yankees and Red Sox. You act like they were a perennial last place team for 23 years.

 

These guys today have a way bigger budget. And 9 years. And it's never looked more hopeless than it does now.

 

Sorry to disagree Max, but I strongly disagree.

[Omar]

I'm sorry but that's just not the case. I've read this board enough over the past year or so to know that some posters seemed willing to go through a wall for this front office.

 

A lot has changed, but those like jaysblue and jaysfan or whatever his/her name is have been calling out the front office the longest and took a lot of flak from certain posters. I don't want to start an argument with those posters who turned out to be wrong.

 

But max silver and Brownie are still defending this management.

 

And Max, you seem to remember things differently than me. Back then it was tough, but there was more hope and we had better players. And you are wrong about no playoffs under current playoff format.

 

in 1998 AND 1999 (under Ash I acknowledge) Jays would have won the wild card under the current format.

 

And in 2003 they would have tied for the final wild card spot.

 

2000 and 2006 they would have been 2 games out. 5 games out in 2007. 3 games out in 2010.

 

So I would argue we had more to cheer for in that era than you seem to remember. And doing all of that on a show string budget against the big bad Yankees and Red Sox. You act like they were a perennial last place team for 23 years.

 

These guys today have a way bigger budget. And 9 years. And it's never looked more hopeless than it does now.

 

Sorry to disagree Max, but I strongly disagree.

 

Don't confuse rationalizing the decision making of the current regime with full fledged support of them. The difference is subtle but it is there. Look deeper.