General Blue Jays Discussion Thread (2024)

[Brownie19]

So Alek's issues weren't skill related? At least Daulton added value. Wake up, man.

 

Just use the ignore tool man. Guy is a moron.

 

Manoah has a good year in 2022 (4.1 WAR) and is HORRID in 2023 (-0.4 WAR) - "hE'Ll bE FinE, JuST NeEDs tO HIt dA GyM"

Varsho has a good year in 2022 (4.8 WAR) and a disappointing, yet still productive 2023 (2.1 WAR) - "gEt hIm OuT tHE liNeUp, DfA hIM, hE'S AwFUl"

[Laika]

Varsho will out-WAR Manoah by at least 5 WAR in 2024

[deanmike]

You people probably consider me one of the more negative posters on here and even I don't understand the Varsho hate. Just because most of us didn't want to see Moreno as the catcher moved doesn't mean Varsho has to receive hate as a result. Platinum glove level CFs don't grow on trees, especially ones like him that are cost efficient and controllable for multiple years. It is also NOT Varsho's fault that the FO has decided for 2 straight offseasons to deploy KK as the strong side platoon CF and nuke Varsho's WAR upside as a result.

 

Manoah on the other hand is just a straight up worthless lazy fatass Dorito addict minor league bum. Why are people even comparing Varsho to Dorito addict anyway?

[Laika]

Sounds like the Jays have signed this Yariel Rodríguez guy but the deal can't be made official until some immigration s*** is sorted.

 

Or, more cynically, the deal is tentative and might not happen because of the immigration s***

[Olerud363]

Varsho will out-WAR Manoah by at least 5 WAR in 2024

 

Varsho .273 38 homers 65 walks mind blowing defense and base-running = 8.4 WAR like Alex Gordon in prime except even better defense and base-running

 

Manoah = 15-7 3.38 ERA 190 innings pitched = 3.4 WAR (2022 performance level without as much luck).

 

OR

 

Varsho .215 19 homers 39 walks decent defense and base-running = 1.9 WAR

 

Manoah (somehow) 1-5 8.72 ERA, only 48 innings pitches (released) but somehow -3.1 WAR for world record lowest WAR per inning ever.

[Brownie19]

IF Manoah bounces back and is a quality, inning eating, back of the rotation starter in 2024 (which is probably the highest probability result), there's probably a good chance he's only as valuable as Varsho was last year, in what most expect to be his "floor" at 2.1 WAR. Bassitt was only worth 2.6 WAR last year, which took 200 innings to accumulate and I think his 2023 season represents one of the best possible outcomes for Manoah in 2024.

[Brownie19]

Alex Gordon is a nice little comp for Varsho isn't he? He was a beast in his age 27-31 years. Let's hope Varsho rounds out his skills and provides even 90% of that production.

[JaysAllMighty]

IF Manoah bounces back and is a quality, inning eating, back of the rotation starter in 2024 (which is probably the highest probability result), there's probably a good chance he's only as valuable as Varsho was last year, in what most expect to be his "floor" at 2.1 WAR. Bassitt was only worth 2.6 WAR last year, which took 200 innings to accumulate and I think his 2023 season represents one of the best possible outcomes for Manoah in 2024.

 

I'll be surprised if Manoah isn't traded before ST. FO won't put up with his BS.

[Jimcanuck]

Can't expect much from Manoah in 2024. Jays should plan accordingly.

 

But let's be real, if Manoah gets his s*** together, that's a no. 3 (at least) starter.

 

So expect the worst, hope for the best is the way to approach it. We will see.

[Olerud363]

Alex Gordon is a nice little comp for Varsho isn't he? He was a beast in his age 27-31 years. Let's hope Varsho rounds out his skills and provides even 90% of that production.

 

 

Varsho isn't quite as good a minor league hitter as Gordon was... but Varsho is still a .300 minor league hitter...

 

Unusual for a .300 hitter in the minors to hit .220 in the majors, and Alex Gordon shows there is precedent for guys getting it together at 27. All Varsho really has to do is hit .265 with a few more walks to be 2014 Alex Gordon.

[max silver]

I don't have a horse in this race but what the f*** is this "Cy young 'type' season"? He got some votes, but Manoah was not and should not have ever been considered a Cy young candidate. The voters bought in on some of the hype but the analytics just don't stand up.

 

He came in last year with a lot of bluster and attitude and got his s*** pushed in by the new rules, an appalling lack of conditioning and major league batting that adjusted to his stuff.

 

You're take just seems like troll bait imo

 

Manoah was a legitimately very good starting pitcher in his first 1.5 seasons. He may not have been a true top of the rotation ace type but he was absolutely still a good top of the rotation pitcher, just more realistically a good number 2 starter. The ERA numbers, particularly were very unlikely to be recreated as the FIP/xERA numbers trailed by a full run, but even after this correction he was still a great contributor to the rotation.

 

His 2022 3.30 xERA result placed him 16th in MLB among qualified starters, the 3.35 FIP placed him 19th, the 2.23 BB/9 placed him 24th etc. The stuff numbers suggested some level of correction to the results moving forward as he's never really featured anything other than average stuff across the board, and as more of a pitch to contact type who relied on inducing soft contact there was also the possibility that the shift ban was going to further compound his issues against left handed hitters. Having said that I just don't think there is anything analytically that would have suggested the complete implosion that Alek suffered in 2023.

[glory]

I'll be surprised if Manoah isn't traded before ST. FO won't put up with his BS.

 

I’m expecting a Manoah trade before ST as well. This is not a guy who is going to go to AAA without kicking and screaming, and the Jays may not want the headache. What they get back is the question, likely wouldn’t be much. An equally disappointing infielder who could cover an above average 3B and still has some upside/control would probably be a decent lateral move.

[Stangstag]

You people probably consider me one of the more negative posters on here and even I don't understand the Varsho hate. Just because most of us didn't want to see Moreno as the catcher moved doesn't mean Varsho has to receive hate as a result. Platinum glove level CFs don't grow on trees, especially ones like him that are cost efficient and controllable for multiple years. It is also NOT Varsho's fault that the FO has decided for 2 straight offseasons to deploy KK as the strong side platoon CF and nuke Varsho's WAR upside as a result.

 

Manoah on the other hand is just a straight up worthless lazy fatass Dorito addict minor league bum. Why are people even comparing Varsho to Dorito addict anyway?

 

Sensible post honestly

[BigCecil]

You people probably consider me one of the more negative posters on here and even I don't understand the Varsho hate. Just because most of us didn't want to see Moreno as the catcher moved doesn't mean Varsho has to receive hate as a result. Platinum glove level CFs don't grow on trees, especially ones like him that are cost efficient and controllable for multiple years. It is also NOT Varsho's fault that the FO has decided for 2 straight offseasons to deploy KK as the strong side platoon CF and nuke Varsho's WAR upside as a result.

 

Manoah on the other hand is just a straight up worthless lazy fatass Dorito addict minor league bum. Why are people even comparing Varsho to Dorito addict anyway?

 

Varsho is an excellent defensive, really likeable player. I dont understand any hate either. But I do think a controversial trade for good reasons. Its fair to say we paid a 5 WAR price for him plus a year of LGJ - and we got a 2 WAR season back so far.

 

Jim Bowden's take on Varsho FWIW is that the deal made no sense given they wouldn't trade Gabby for Jose Ramirez (which he said he knows for a fact was on the table), and throwing in LGJ made less sense. He said he is a + glove with some pop but can't hit and he can't understand why people think he ever will. Don't shoot the messenger. Thats one take.

 

Others have different views on the deal and his upside. All we know for certain is offensively is he is 96 wRC+ career bat in 1600 PAs and is 28 next season. He doesn't hit the ball consistently hard - Avg EV or hard hit % are 20th percentile. But for a power tool, he hit a ball 113 in 2023. Which is encouraging.

 

Time will tell.

[Dick_Pole]

If Arizona gets bounced first round and the Jays make it to the World Series, no one talks about Varsho. He is a scapegoat for everything that people don't like about Atkins. Is it fair to him? No. But complaining about how other fans choose to be fans of the team is a little bit of a lost cause.

[Krylian]

If Arizona gets bounced first round and the Jays make it to the World Series, no one talks about Varsho. He is a scapegoat for everything that people don't like about Atkins. Is it fair to him? No. But complaining about how other fans choose to be fans of the team is a little bit of a lost cause.

 

Well... If Varsho had played well, maybe they would've made it to the World Series.

[Dick_Pole]

Well... If Varsho had played well, maybe they would've made it to the World Series.

 

Yes, those two things would be positively correlated.

[Dick_Pole]

If they let Bo walk in Free Agency that would set the franchise back half a decade. If you can’t extend him you 200% need to trade him. Under no circumstances do you let him get to unrestricted free agency

 

Just a bit of hyperbole. If the Jays find themselves in contention over the next couple of years and feel that him on their roster provides the best shot at winning games, they absolutely 100% must keep him to free agency. Not trading a 4-5 WAR player with 1+ years of control left isn't going to set this franchise back 5 years lol.

[L54]

And Gabriel Moreno playing well correlated with Arizona’s success

[max silver]

Well... If Varsho had played well, maybe they would've made it to the World Series.

 

It's kind of hard to blame the dude who received something like 5 plate appearances for the team's lack of playoff success.

[John_Havok]

Jim Bowden's take on Varsho FWIW is that the deal made no sense given they wouldn't trade Gabby for Jose Ramirez (which he said he knows for a fact was on the table), and throwing in LGJ made less sense. He said he is a + glove with some pop but can't hit and he can't understand why people think he ever will. Don't shoot the messenger. Thats one take.

 

BOwden is a clown. When was this supposed Ramirez deal on the table? WHy would the Jays trade for Ramirez when they had Chappy? THat pretty much shoots down that trade being on the table in the 2022/23 offseason at the same time as the Varsho trade taking place.

 

Did he say when the deal was on the table? Context matters

[Jays24]

It's kind of hard to blame the dude who received something like 5 plate appearances for the team's lack of playoff success.

 

He was batting 9th by the end of the season on a crappy hitting team. You don't blame him for all of the Jays problems but he is certainly part of the problem.

 

Like I said, hope he's able to turn it around at the plate this season. Since we're not adding major difference makers, we will need everyone in the lineup to step up proportionately.

[Jays24]

BOwden is a clown. When was this supposed Ramirez deal on the table? WHy would the Jays trade for Ramirez when they had Chappy? THat pretty much shoots down that trade being on the table in the 2022/23 offseason at the same time as the Varsho trade taking place.

 

Did he say when the deal was on the table? Context matters

 

Cant Jose play 2B as well?

[z3r0s]

in what world does Matt Chapman preclude us from wanting Jose Ramirez?

 

And no way was that deal on the table.

[Eat My Shatkins]

lol there is no f***ing way the Jays wouldn't trade Moreno for JRam but then turn around and deal him for Varsho

 

If Ramirez was on the table it would have been for a lot more than just Moreno

 

However, hopefully it wasn't Ramirez for a package of Manoah, Moreno, Gurriel or something like that. Manoah would have had way more value back then but now it would look like a total steal for the Jays. If that was ever on the table I don't even want to know about it.

[itaos]

Bowden likes to throw s*** against the wall and see what sticks. He’s not a reliable source. It’s highly unlikely Moreno was not available in a Ramirez trade.

[Jimcanuck]

Moreno+ for Ramirez, with Tiedemann being part of the +

 

Yes, Bowden is a clown

[jerb]

[max silver]

He was batting 9th by the end of the season on a crappy hitting team. You don't blame him for all of the Jays problems but he is certainly part of the problem.

 

Like I said, hope he's able to turn it around at the plate this season. Since we're not adding major difference makers, we will need everyone in the lineup to step up proportionately.

 

Varsho ended the season on a high note as he produced a 116 wRC+ over his last 50 games, where he was hitting in the lineup at that point is completely immaterial. He more than did his part over the final third of the season, and needs to avoid the deep slumps moving forward.

[max silver]

BOwden is a clown. When was this supposed Ramirez deal on the table? WHy would the Jays trade for Ramirez when they had Chappy? THat pretty much shoots down that trade being on the table in the 2022/23 offseason at the same time as the Varsho trade taking place.

 

Did he say when the deal was on the table? Context matters

 

I believe the Ramirez/Jays rumors had the Guardians asking for Moreno, Martinez and others in a package. This was before Ramirez signed his contract extension and was prior to the club acquiring Chapman. I believe this immediately after the season where Moreno destroyed AA pitching to the tune of a 192 wRC+ so it's understandable why the team would have been hesitant to trade him at the time