Former Blue Jays Thread

[Stangstag]

Just noticed Vlad and Lourdes’ stats are almost identical as of now. Crazy

[wilko]

Just noticed Vlad and Lourdes’ stats are almost identical as of now. Crazy

 

Jays traded the wrong player!

[Terminator]

Thank god we didn't bring back Ross Stripling. He's been dogshit.

[Omar]

Jays traded the wrong player!

 

Lourdes is the king of streakyness. Wait till he cools off.

[wilko]

Thank god we didn't bring back Ross Stripling. He's been dogshit.

 

He turned into a pumpkin. Looks like he's giving up the long ball a lot so far.

[G-Snarls]

Thank god we didn't bring back Ross Stripling. He's been dogshit.

 

Between

 

Stripling

Bassitt

Ray

 

They seem to have picked the right one

 

.... He says dangerously on a Bassit start day that could make this post look great or terrible depending on how it goes tonight

[204Jays]

Varsho trade looking pretty ass.

[G-Snarls]

Varsho trade looking pretty ass.

 

Way too early to say that

[BigCecil]

Lourdes is the king of streakyness. Wait till he cools off.

 

One of several reasonable reasons/rationalizations for the deal was his loss of power in '22.

 

He already has 2 more HRs than all of last year. He will cool off from a 150 wRC+ but those HRs are on the board.

[Eat My Shatkins]

Varsho trade looking pretty ass.

 

Jesus christ.

 

The Jays gave Gurriel 5 f***ing years to show some consistency and all they got was injury after injury, inconsistent offense, awful baserunning and terrible goddamn defense. And even if he was still here all he'd really be doing right now is having a potential career year when he's due to be a free agent and the Jays wouldn't be able to afford to keep him anyways.

 

Now they've got a player who can play any OF position and play them well above average, is way smarter on the base paths and still has a f*** ton of runway left as he's under control for 4 more years. There was nothing wrong with that trade.

[Laika]

Jesus christ.

 

The Jays gave Gurriel 5 f***ing years to show some consistency and all they got was injury after injury, inconsistent offense, awful baserunning and terrible goddamn defense. And even if he was still here all he'd really be doing right now is having a potential career year when he's due to be a free agent and the Jays wouldn't be able to afford to keep him anyways.

 

Now they've got a player who can play any OF position and play them well above average, is way smarter on the base paths and still has a f*** ton of runway left as he's under control for 4 more years. There was nothing wrong with that trade.

 

I mean......... Moreno is hitting like .330 and gunning out runners while Danno is hitting .150, Kirk has forgotten how to frame and hit for power, and Varsho flirts with the Mendoza line.

 

It doesn't look great. Oops.

[Omar]

[Grant77]

Jesus christ.

 

The Jays gave Gurriel 5 f***ing years to show some consistency and all they got was injury after injury, inconsistent offense, awful baserunning and terrible goddamn defense. And even if he was still here all he'd really be doing right now is having a potential career year when he's due to be a free agent and the Jays wouldn't be able to afford to keep him anyways.

 

Now they've got a player who can play any OF position and play them well above average, is way smarter on the base paths and still has a f*** ton of runway left as he's under control for 4 more years. There was nothing wrong with that trade.

 

Moreno is the reason this trade was a significant mistake, not Gurriel. That's been the case from the moment the trade was made. Moreno had significantly more value than Varsho.

[Stangstag]

Moreno is the reason this trade was a significant mistake, not Gurriel. That's been the case from the moment the trade was made. Moreno had significantly more value than Varsho.

 

Oh come on, this is revisionist BS. Lets just wait til the end of the year before we start trashing the trade.

[jaysblue]

I think some posters on here fell in love with Kirk too much last season and thought Moreno was easily expendable.

 

So far, the Jays have got very little from Kirk and Jansen. While I still like both and still believe Kirk can be a solid catcher moving forward, Moreno is looking like he most likely is the best of the 3 moving forward long term.

[jaysblue]

Oh come on, this is revisionist BS. Lets just wait til the end of the year before we start trashing the trade.

 

You gotta hope Varsho is a 4-5 WAR player every season. If he's just a 2 WAR player, meh Arizona wins the trade.

 

Still very early though. Varsho just needs a couple hot weeks and his numbers could greatly improve!

[L54]

Through May 15th last year Kirk had an 86 wRC+

 

At the end of May he had a 134 wRC+

 

He’s been ass so far but I think he’ll bounce back at some point.

[Stangstag]

I think some posters on here fell in love with Kirk too much last season and thought Moreno was easily expendable.

 

So far, the Jays have got very little from Kirk and Jansen. While I still like both and still believe Kirk can be a solid catcher moving forward, Moreno is looking like he most likely is the best of the 3 moving forward long term.

 

Ahh right. 2 mediocre months from Jansen/Kirk completely override the stats they put up the previous 2 seasons.

[Spanky99]

I mean......... Moreno is hitting like .330 and gunning out runners while Danno is hitting .150, Kirk has forgotten how to frame and hit for power, and Varsho flirts with the Mendoza line.

 

It doesn't look great. Oops.

 

And a few months back you did not feel this way, at all. Easy there cowboy.

[Laika]

And a few months back you did not feel this way, at all. Easy there cowboy.

 

I didn't think Moreno would be this good right away.

 

I also assumed Varsho was a better player from his results.

[Spanky99]

I didn't think Moreno would be this good right away.

 

I also assumed Varsho was a better player from his results.

 

He's who he's been all along, though? Of Moreno's 36 hits, 29 singles - 6 DBL's and a HR with an ISO of .086 and 4.2% walk rate and a .498 Babip, I wouldn't call that good his expected #'s are poop. Varsho's been a slow starter thus far into his career and he's coming on, far too early to say the trade is bad, or are you trolling?

 

The trade's fine.

[Olerud363]

He's who he's been all along, though? Of Moreno's 36 hits, 29 singles - 6 DBL's and a HR with an ISO of .086 and 4.2% walk rate and a .498 Babip, I wouldn't call that good his expected #'s are poop. Varsho's been a slow starter thus far into his career and he's coming on, far too early to say the trade is bad, or are you trolling?

 

The trade's fine.

 

 

So far the big difference is mostly from Kirk/Varsho hitting .220 and Moreno/Gurriel hitting .320. I think that difference will still even out, and both groups of players may end up at .280, in which case Kirk Varsho will likely be worth more and the trade will look fine.

 

I can see why the trade 'feels' bad emotionally. I thought Varsho was not really a .230 hitter based on his minor league numbers, so would get even better, thought for sure Kirk would continue to take another step up offensively (was elite first half last year and I thought he got tired) so thought those 2 players would be just as valuable as Bo/Guerrero (as they were last year).

 

Now of all a sudden it looks like Varsho can't even hit .230 and Kirk is a fat-boy who looks like a Yankee coach not a ball-player and is a .220 hitting ground ball machine who is probably mentally damaged now seeing his manager fat-shaming, mean while Gurriel is the hitter described as being better than his brother (not that his brother was consistently great) and Moreno is a gold glove batting title contending super star... it really feels bad optically right now but hopefully that is just an illusion.

[Laika]

He's who he's been all along, though? Of Moreno's 36 hits, 29 singles - 6 DBL's and a HR with an ISO of .086 and 4.2% walk rate and a .498 Babip, I wouldn't call that good his expected #'s are poop. Varsho's been a slow starter thus far into his career and he's coming on, far too early to say the trade is bad, or are you trolling?

 

The trade's fine.

 

Many top catching prospects in the mold of Moreno end up not being impact players or even average players. Look at Keibert Ruiz or Knizner.

 

Part of what made the trade ostensibly fair was the risk that Moreno would be useless in the short term to a contending team. But as the weeks tick on and he looks like an MLB average catcher, or better, right now, that risk evaporates. That tilts the equation on the trade heavily.

 

It's healthy to be open minded and change your opinions over time.

[Spanky99]

Many top catching prospects in the mold of Moreno end up not being impact players or even average players. Look at Keibert Ruiz or Knizner.

 

Part of what made the trade ostensibly fair was the risk that Moreno would be useless in the short term to a contending team. But as the weeks tick on and he looks like an MLB average catcher, or better, right now, that risk evaporates. That tilts the equation on the trade heavily.

 

It's healthy to be open minded and change your opinions over time.

 

Yes, I get that, but I think it's irresponsible to say the trade is bad 6 weeks in, not to mention he seems to kill LHP and sucks donkey dick against RHP early on here in his career. Meh... we'll see.

[Laika]

Yes, I get that, but I think it's irresponsible to say the trade is bad 6 weeks in, not to mention he seems to kill LHP and sucks donkey dick against RHP early on here in his career. Meh... we'll see.

 

It just wasn't a great use of resources.

 

Whether or not it was "bad" depends on your lens.

[Stangstag]

Many top catching prospects in the mold of Moreno end up not being impact players or even average players. Look at Keibert Ruiz or Knizner.

 

Part of what made the trade ostensibly fair was the risk that Moreno would be useless in the short term to a contending team. But as the weeks tick on and he looks like an MLB average catcher, or better, right now, that risk evaporates. That tilts the equation on the trade heavily.

 

It's healthy to be open minded and change your opinions over time.

 

Where exactly would he be playing if he were on the Jays right now though? LF?? He definitely wouldn't have gotten full-time reps and maybe doesn't end up with stats that look as good.

[Spanky99]

It just wasn't a great use of resources.

 

Whether or not it was "bad" depends on your lens.

 

lol... what you say about this trade now is a stark difference from what you said in the offseason, like a full 180 in a 6 week window, yer dumn.

[jaysblue]

I agree with Laika.

 

At the time of the trade, the thought was Moreno wasn't going to make an impact in the short term right away, therefore Kirk and Jansen, who are proven, are more valuable to the Jays over the next two seasons. There was more risk with Moreno if he didn't develop into a solid starting catcher both offensively and defensively given the Jays window to contend.

 

At this point, we're seeing Moreno hitting extremely well - yes most hits are singles but he's hitting .321 with a .746 OPS and that's with very little power to show so far. Alongside with his very strong defense in the early going. Imagine if he starts hitting for more power whether later this season or further down the road and continues to provide high batting averages, then he's looking like a real stud behind the plate.

 

Varsho (who I still believe in) and Kirk/Jansen (I believe in both as well) have been awful to start the season. I expect all three to bounce back.

 

Right now, the way Moreno has started his career in Arizona and if he continues on an upward trajectory, it's looking like he was the catcher to keep because of his long term potential and since he's making an impact already in the short term. So right now, his successful start + long term upside and Lourdes successful start are tilting the trade in favor of Arizona. Doesn't mean it was a bad trade or awful trade from the Blue Jays. As well, we don't know if the D'Backs preferred Moreno over Kirk or did the Blue Jays offer Moreno etc.

 

If the Jays get 4-5 WAR out of Varsho every season, I'll take that. If Moreno develops some power and becomes a 4-5 WAR catcher, whereas Jansen/Kirk are only 2-3 WAR guys, then yeah not a great use of resources, though again we don't have a transcript of the trade discussions and who Arizona preferred so it's a moot point.

 

Overall, the trade I think does need more time obviously before we declare a clear winner. Right now it's tilting towards Arizona but yes that could change if Varsho and Kirk/Jansen both get hot and Moreno/Lourdes slow down. Still a lot of baseball left and as well still a couple more seasons before making a final conclusion.

[jaysblue]

Where exactly would he be playing if he were on the Jays right now though? LF?? He definitely wouldn't have gotten full-time reps and maybe doesn't end up with stats that look as good.

 

One of Kirk or Jansen are likely traded. The Jays wouldn't have kept all 3 catchers.

[Laika]

Where exactly would he be playing if he were on the Jays right now though? LF?? He definitely wouldn't have gotten full-time reps and maybe doesn't end up with stats that look as good.

 

Well, it just means they should have received better value for him. Or traded a different catcher.

 

Of course that's easy to say and harder to do. They probably tried everything all offseason and ended up taking the best deal they could get.

 

They still kind of got f***ed though, in hindsight. It's not an amazing look on Atkins. He should have had some leverage given the market. The f***ing Cardinals chose to pay a non-catcher $90M to catch, rather than trade fair value for Danno. How does that happen? Bizarre.