General Blue Jays Discussion Thread (2023)

[BigCecil]

Nobody over the age of 30 thinks Atkins has done a horrible job. Why? Because they lived through Ash and Ricciardi and know what bad is.

 

All the hyped prospects except Pearson have contributed to this team. And it's starting to turn up for him too. Kirk came out of nowhere. The PD and drafting part of this team is fine. As for the farm sucking, yeah of course its going to suck when you graduate or trade your top 10 prospects over last three years. Plenty of time to replenish it.

 

As for trades, Jays generally have done well. What kind of stupid motherf***er thinks that teams only win trades? FA signings same thing. And it's more about the moves they avoided than the moves they did. Nothing has been egregious. In an alternate universe, this could have been just the second year the Jays aren't paying Jose Bautista $30 million.

 

Glass half full Dick. You used to hate Atkins. If a f***ing chimpanzee was GM, they wouldn’t have signed Jose to $30M per. That would definitely be an alternate universe. Having you said that, as per usual, you speak some truth. Relative to Ash and Richardi, I’m not sure they had the benefit Ross has of such an open ownership wallet to make FA signings, and all the other s*** they are doing at the complex and stadium.

[goldbug103]

Adam Frazier, known throughout his career as a slap hitter, currently has an ISO that is 13 points higher than Vlad Jr.

 

Well Vlad Jr = GBOAT = greatest bust of all time Is this even possible ?

[93 Jays]

How much longer do you think it will take for him to blossom? He's 28 years old and we are in year 5.

 

Good point. I dunno, I just think they gave up on him pretty early on. I though him Bo and Vladdy would be cornerstones, but Biggs just got left behind when he had a bad year. Lot of valid points from everyone though. I appreciate the constructive critcism

[93 Jays]

Hey look Spanx is being a troll again.

 

Everyone's tired of your s*** dude.

 

I'm not for one....dude calls it like he sees it, especially when it comes to whiney bandwagon jumpers.

 

Back to my soup, not french ongion, I'm a pea soup guy, helps me clear the room with some ass wind.

[Masterbather]

After 68 games:

 

2023: 37-31

2015: 36-32

2022: 38-30

2021: 33-35

2016: 37-31

 

So that's a summary of all the good years this team has had over the last 10. This team is a notoriously underperformer in May/June then turns it up in the last 50-60 games. It's a franchise thing. I don't know if it's something in the water or the weather or whatever. Even going back to the 80's there were those bad starts in 1988 and 1989 and the team turned it up in September to contend. 1998 - which is a year looked on fondly by a lot of people - it's different for me because I lived through that season real time and I knew that team was hot garbage until after the trade deadline.

 

I don't know of any site that summarizes franchise performance by month but I would bet the Jays best month by far is September and the worst one has got to be May or June. Just wait until the end of the season.

 

Not just about record, it's about talent level relative to other contenders and realistic minor league capital for trades/late season call up. Talent level is good, it's certainly isn't a terrible team, it just isn't good enough.

 

I see no way our SP will be able to compete with the best, that's our biggest issues, one front-line starter in Gausman and a bunch of 3-4 type pitchers (you could argue with Berrios, but I see him as more of a #3 on a championship team). Manoah was never really that guy, even if he figures it out, he's another #3 to me. Our bullpen is very good, good late season potential, no truly elite guys though.

 

Lineup is good, still our strength, RISP is kind of flukey at the moment, but it was better in past years and not good enough to overcome the SP. I don't believe in Vladdy at this point to be the guy we needed him to be, and that really hurts us. Considering the payroll and how little we have in the cupboard, to me, this team should be in a better place.

[Brownie19]

Two months after Bo Bichette was drafted, scouting director Brian Parker, who fought for the selection, was fired. AA regime.

 

Atkins had never seen Bo play when he was drafted.

 

Andrew Tinish who oversaw the Kirk signing left for the Braves in 2017. AA regime.

 

Cherington and Sanders oversaw Manoah. Both left to the Pirates.

 

Atkins can get credit since he ultimatley gives the green light. However, those are probably the three best players we have drafted since Atkins and all responsible are gone.

 

I like Atkins MLB club moves, for the most part... However, I have consistently criticised his lack of viable depth, especially on the pitching side.

 

The bottom line is, his objective is to win us a WS. Since the 2016 team, we have had zero playoffs wins under this regime.

 

I think he made the right moves for the most part this last year at the deadline and in offseason to get us over the hump. Merrifield is a playoff guy to me.. We just need to get there.. Swanson, Varsho KK and Belt were the right idea. I loved the Bassitt signing.

 

They will need to get more depth at the deadline or sooner and I don't know if we have the ammo to do much..

 

And to Todd' Bloody Vagina... Way too early to assess the Varsho trade..

 

Tinnish never left the Jays. He definitely was going to leave at one point, but pulled the plug last minute to stay with the Jays (primarily due to family reasons - tough to move the fam to Atlanta). He's still with the Jays and is the Vice President, International Scouting & Baseball Operations.

[Dick_Pole]

Glass half full Dick. You used to hate Atkins. If a f***ing chimpanzee was GM, they wouldnÂ’t have signed Jose to $30M per. That would definitely be an alternate universe. Having you said that, as per usual, you speak some truth. Relative to Ash and Richardi, IÂ’m not sure they had the benefit Ross has of such an open ownership wallet to make FA signings, and all the other s*** they are doing at the complex and stadium.

 

 

I hated Atkins at that time because 1. he looked like a Poindexter and 2. the Stroman trade sucked. Given his performance since then, my opinion of him has changed. As any smart person's should. I'm particularly pleased since my opinion of him has gone in polar opposite direction of the crowd. That's how you make bank in life. Just like in the penny stock world when I push some obscure $0.20 stock to death, even on a random baseball message board. Sell it all and hate on it when it reaches $10, then buy it and cheerlead it again when it tanks alllll the way back down to under $0.20.

 

P.S. I really hope BTS and the rest of the guys who bought PKK sold when the selling was good.

[Dick_Pole]

I am very pleased with the pitching decisions made today. Of course, one wrong pitch here or there would have had me screaming. But for today, rolling with Berrios into the 8th with just four outs needed from two of your better RP is exactly the type of decision making I want to see.

[Dick_Pole]

Not just about record, it's about talent level relative to other contenders and realistic minor league capital for trades/late season call up. Talent level is good, it's certainly isn't a terrible team, it just isn't good enough.

 

I see no way our SP will be able to compete with the best, that's our biggest issues, one front-line starter in Gausman and a bunch of 3-4 type pitchers (you could argue with Berrios, but I see him as more of a #3 on a championship team). Manoah was never really that guy, even if he figures it out, he's another #3 to me. Our bullpen is very good, good late season potential, no truly elite guys though.

 

Lineup is good, still our strength, RISP is kind of flukey at the moment, but it was better in past years and not good enough to overcome the SP. I don't believe in Vladdy at this point to be the guy we needed him to be, and that really hurts us. Considering the payroll and how little we have in the cupboard, to me, this team should be in a better place.

 

The Phillies made it to the World Series last year with a so-so rotation. Certainly comparable if not inferior to what the Jays are throwing out there on a daily basis. With the way pitching usage has morphed in the playoffs over the last few years, I don't think starting pitching is necessarily the determining factor like it once was assumed to be. I'm a lot more bullish on this rotation that others are. Especially with the improved defense. I think the hitting is the problem.

[Masterbather]

The Phillies made it to the World Series last year with a so-so rotation. Certainly comparable if not inferior to what the Jays are throwing out there on a daily basis. With the way pitching usage has morphed in the playoffs over the last few years, I don't think starting pitching is necessarily the determining factor like it once was assumed to be. I'm a lot more bullish on this rotation that others are. Especially with the improved defense. I think the hitting is the problem.

Still weren't nearly good enough to be the Astros because the Astros were flat out better. Teams can go on flukey runsvsometimes but usually in the end they get beat by a better team. They had some incredibly clutch hitting also.

 

The American League especially is tough. I do believe Baltimore has passed us by as an organization. The problem is if we wait for this window completely to close we'll have a lot less value in terms of assets to really work with. It could be a very quick rebuild with what we have to trade right now.

[John_Havok]

Still weren't nearly good enough to be the Astros because the Astros were flat out better. Teams can go on flukey runsvsometimes but usually in the end they get beat by a better team. They had some incredibly clutch hitting also.

 

The American League especially is tough. I do believe Baltimore has passed us by as an organization. The problem is if we wait for this window completely to close we'll have a lot less value in terms of assets to really work with. It could be a very quick rebuild with what we have to trade right now.

 

Let’s hear some ideas for the rebuild.

[L54]

Let’s hear some ideas for the rebuild.

 

I would imagine it starts with trading Vlad, Bo, Chapman and Gausman

[wamco]

Poor Atkins getting absolutely s*** on.

 

Basically if jays were 9-4 in manoah starts rather than 4-9 and he had a reasonable 3.75 era (as opposed to low 2 last year), we’d all be more sunny in our views. That would put us tied with baltimore, bp holes wouldn’t have been as exposed (or managers decision making). Nor would the lack of aaa sp depth be as exposed. Atkins would be held up higher at this point as well as his off-season moves. (Of course an injury to Gaus or bassitt would have revealed these as well).

Edited June 15, 2023 by wamco

[glory]

Nobody over the age of 30 thinks Atkins has done a horrible job. Why? Because they lived through Ash and Ricciardi and know what bad is.

 

All the hyped prospects except Pearson have contributed to this team. And it's starting to turn up for him too. Kirk came out of nowhere. The PD and drafting part of this team is fine. As for the farm sucking, yeah of course its going to suck when you graduate or trade your top 10 prospects over last three years. Plenty of time to replenish it.

 

As for trades, Jays generally have done well. What kind of stupid motherf***er thinks that teams only win trades? FA signings same thing. And it's more about the moves they avoided then the moves they did. Nothing has been egregious. In an alternate universe, this could have been just the second year the Jays aren't paying Jose Bautista $30 million.

 

There were quite a few promotions from 2018-22 (Jansen, Gurriel, Mayza, Vlad, Bichette, Biggio, Romano, Pearson, Kirk, Espinal, Manoah, Moreno), so yes you can't say that Atkins has been bad from the development side. However he hasn't been good with pitching development, and there are real concerns about whether the team can produce a next wave of prospects over the next 2+ years. His strength, at least from 2020-now, has been MLB moves. His FA signings and trades, for the most part, are usually pretty good. That's been able to compensate for some of his weaknesses. It's actually impressive that he's put the team in position to possibly get to 90 wins for the 3rd straight season, it shows how good his FA/trades have been because his pre-2020 work was pretty subpar. The long term question is whether he can develop more young players, close to Vlad/Bo caliber, in time to prolong this competitive window. I'm not banking on that, but who knows. I'm firmly back on the Orelvis bandwagon, and maybe he can be the start.

[BigCecil]

I hated Atkins at that time because 1. he looked like a Poindexter and 2. the Stroman trade sucked. Given his performance since then, my opinion of him has changed. As any smart person's should. I'm particularly pleased since my opinion of him has gone in polar opposite direction of the crowd. That's how you make bank in life. Just like in the penny stock world when I push some obscure $0.20 stock to death, even on a random baseball message board. Sell it all and hate on it when it reaches $10, then buy it and cheerlead it again when it tanks alllll the way back down to under $0.20.

 

P.S. I really hope BTS and the rest of the guys who bought PKK sold when the selling was good.

 

You are allowed to change opinions of course. I was just curious on the turnaround. I think he sounds more like Ned Flanders. Are you day trading Atkins? I suspect this all has a lot to do with your contrarian strain. Lol. Atkins has been ok. Lots to criticize and lots to give props too. Not as enamoured as you are for reasons too oft stated.

[Brownie19]

Who is in charge of developing and implementing the development of pitchers throughout the organization? Is that all Atkins? Or does Pete Walker get a say in that from the standpoint that he wants his philosophies to trickle down throughout the organization?

 

It would seem like that could be someone's sole job - Director of Pitching Development who works with the pitching coaches at each level and ensures a consistent message, tracking progress, etc. It seems like a stretch to think the GM could stay on top of that, plus all the other responsibilities. You'd think there could be a similar position for hitting and fielding development as well.

 

Is that a thing?

[BigCecil]

The PD and drafting part of this team is fine. As for the farm sucking, yeah of course its going to suck when you graduate or trade your top 10 prospects over last three years. Plenty of time to replenish it.

 

Its the case that over that 4-5 year period there have been a number of impact players brought up or signed which will deplete the farm for good reason.

 

I think its a fair concern that we have not been able to develop more rotation and pen impact arms over 4-5 years. Causing us to hit the FA market hard. Gausman, Berrios looking like very solid deals at the moment. Ross may not be around for the back half of those deals. Who knows? Pearson looks solid now which is an awesome boost.

 

The current farm perception of thinness is not just about promotions to this squad. Its also because we also moved top prospects in deals. EX: Varsho, Chappy, White and Berrios. Not debating them ATM, its just fact. Sure, replenishing the farm is easy...if you pick well and develop well.

[Eat My Shatkins]

Hard to believe this far into the season that Kirk is still just 95 wRC+

 

Jansen too at 77 wRC+

 

Both still positive fWAR contributors though. Would love to see their bats get going the way they are capable of though.

[jaysblue]

Still weren't nearly good enough to be the Astros because the Astros were flat out better. Teams can go on flukey runsvsometimes but usually in the end they get beat by a better team. They had some incredibly clutch hitting also.

 

The American League especially is tough. I do believe Baltimore has passed us by as an organization. The problem is if we wait for this window completely to close we'll have a lot less value in terms of assets to really work with. It could be a very quick rebuild with what we have to trade right now.

 

[rookiefuzz]

Baltimore really does not get the credit it deserves in general. One of the best current stories in sports IMO.

[jaysblue]

You are allowed to change opinions of course. I was just curious on the turnaround. I think he sounds more like Ned Flanders. Are you day trading Atkins? I suspect this all has a lot to do with your contrarian strain. Lol. Atkins has been ok. Lots to criticize and lots to give props too. Not as enamoured as you are for reasons too oft stated.

 

Atkins has been solid, not spectacular. There are things though you can criticize him and the FO on, while also giving them props for things as well. Some posters on here though don't understand that and don't allow you to criticize him on things though.

[Eat My Shatkins]

Baltimore really does not get the credit it deserves in general. One of the best current stories in sports IMO.

 

How is one of the Jays biggest rivals having a surprisingly good season (so far) "one of the best current stories in sports" if you're a Jays fan???

 

I'm sorry but that's just f***ing stupid.....unless you're NOT a Jays fan????

[jaysblue]

The Phillies made it to the World Series last year with a so-so rotation. Certainly comparable if not inferior to what the Jays are throwing out there on a daily basis. With the way pitching usage has morphed in the playoffs over the last few years, I don't think starting pitching is necessarily the determining factor like it once was assumed to be. I'm a lot more bullish on this rotation that others are. Especially with the improved defense. I think the hitting is the problem.

 

Phillies had a great #1-2 punch in Nola and Wheeler, which I would consider one the better ones in the league while the rest of the rotation was meh.

 

Gausman, Bassitt and Berrios should be more than fine in a short series. Would be nice to add another starter though to put this team in a better position, especially in case if one of those 3 get injured and so you don't have to start Kikuchi in the ALDS or ALCS.

[jaysblue]

How is one of the Jays biggest rivals having a surprisingly good season (so far) "one of the best current stories in sports" if you're a Jays fan???

 

I'm sorry but that's just f***ing stupid.....unless you're NOT a Jays fan????

 

How about all the times BTS and Laika were salivating over the Rays success all these years? I guess it's "f***ing stupid" according to you. How are they Jays fans? You should call them out.

 

If you're a true fan of the game of baseball, you appreciate and give recognition to other organizations/teams or players when they do some things right or well. Obviously every time the Jays play the Rays or Orioles, I want the Jays to win. Though I also enjoy watching the Rays and Orioles occasionally because of their young talent, pitching etc.

 

I don't know if I would say Baltimore is "one of the best current stories in sports" lol, though they definitely are a good story this season in baseball along with other teams like the Marlins, D'Backs and Rangers.

[connorp]

Well put by JB, the Rays are regularly blown for years here but now Baltimore is hitting and so praising them is not ok

[Laika]

Are people saying that praising Baltimore is "not ok"?

 

I don't think so. The full and fair representation of the position would be something like this:

 

Yes, Baltimore has a nice young core breaking into the big leagues right now and an excellent looking farm. Yes, their developmental system seems to be doing very well. However, they have a long track record of being a dogshit organization so maybe we should hold off on the Orioles fellatio for juuuuuust a little bit longer because it's very much within the realm of possibility that they will f*** it up. Prospects will break your heart. A few high profile busts and some failure to spend money properly and they might end up as the same sorry Orioles we know and love in a a couple of years.

[John_Havok]

Are people saying that praising Baltimore is "not ok"?

 

I don't think so. The full and fair representation of the position would be something like this:

 

Yes, Baltimore has a nice young core breaking into the big leagues right now and an excellent looking farm. Yes, their developmental system seems to be doing very well. However, they have a long track record of being a dogshit organization so maybe we should hold off on the Orioles fellatio for juuuuuust a little bit longer because it's very much within the realm of possibility that they will f*** it up. Prospects will break your heart. A few high profile busts and some failure to spend money properly and they might end up as the same sorry Orioles we know and love in a a couple of years.

 

And a full and fair representation of the Rays would be... "at this point, they're probably cheating better than everyone else"

[BigCecil]

Phillies had a great #1-2 punch in Nola and Wheeler, which I would consider one the better ones in the league while the rest of the rotation was meh.

 

Thats true and the PHI pen was solid. Alvarado had been on an unconcious roll.

 

Yes PHI made it to the series, but part of the reason they lost one could argue is above, in a longer series. HOU was deeper in the rotation. Wheeler also was nursing some injury issues. At the end of the day the more complete team won.

[John_Havok]

Article from the Athletic about the Jays offense, snippets only:

 

 

After play on Wednesday, they had a .695 OPS with runners in scoring position, which ranked 26th in the league.

 

The Blue Jays offence has been strange this year. The team ranks second in hits (635) and average (.265), behind only the Rangers, and third in on-base percentage (.334). But their slugging percentage (.422) ranks ninth and their runs scored (317) are 11th. This is a team that can hit as well as basically any team and should be more productive offensively, but they’ve not been making the most of opportunities with runners on. They’ve also not been able to rely on the home run to score in bunches as much, either. Their 79 home runs as a team rank 12th.

 

The Blue Jays have a .674 win percentage (31-15) against all non-AL East opponents. They have a .304 win percentage (7-16) against their own division.

 

The Blue Jays have played AL East teams more often on the road (13) than at home (10), so once that begins to even out, maybe that’ll tip the wins more in their direction. But they’re in tough spot trying to at least break even against their division. After Wednesday, they have 29 more games left against AL East teams. They’ll need to go 19-10 the rest of the way to be .500 against the division.

 

“You got to get it done against your division,” Schneider said. “You don’t want to put more pressure on these types of series at this time of year, but they all add up.”

 

“Guys do not feel the pressure,” said Schneider. “They are confident in themselves. It is a uniquely talented division. We’ve been saying that for a long time between Tampa, Boston, New York, Baltimore, us, it’s a uniquely talented division.”

 

 

THat was basically it, no analysis or anything, just declaring raw stats. When discussin gthe upcoming trade deadline they talked about the Jays needs... again pretty uninspired writing as anyone here could have come up with this:

 

"With uncertainty about when Manoah will return to the majors, acquiring a starting pitcher has to be the top priority for Toronto. Another bench bat, preferably someone who can mash left-handed hitting, would be another asset. That player could be a fourth outfielder type, but there is some flexibility with the position here. Lastly, relief help is always sought after at that time of year and the Blue Jays could use another reliable mid-to-late inning arm to shore up their bullpen for the stretch drive."

[jaysblue]

Thats true and the PHI pen was solid. Alvarado had been on an unconcious roll.

 

Yes PHI made it to the series, but part of the reason they lost one could argue is above, in a longer series. HOU was deeper in the rotation. Wheeler also was nursing some injury issues. At the end of the day the more complete team won.

 

Yeah agree 100%. Astros had a better well-rounded team and deeper team for sure. Phillies did get lucky and hot at the right time which got them on a run to the Series. Their bullpen as well were pitching lights out for a period of time.