General Blue Jays Discussion Thread (2023)

[Stangstag]

This was peak Manoah:

 

Unfortunately he is no longer the same. I remember this game and specifically what KK's reaction was to Manoah's sliders.

 

Probably makes some sense to send him down for a couple weeks, let White make a few starts and in that time they can decide who’s the odd man out in the bullpen to replace White with. Probably Pearson.

 

Sending Manoah back to AAA could backfire though and destroy whatever remaining confidence he has

[max silver]

Probably makes some sense to send him down for a couple weeks, let White make a few starts and in that time they can decide who’s the odd man out in the bullpen to replace White with. Probably Pearson.

 

Sending Manoah back to AAA could backfire though and destroy whatever remaining confidence he has

 

I'd rather Manoah just continue to work on things at the major league level. Despite the ugly numbers he's mostly kept the team in the games he's started and mostly avoided total blow out games. I have little confidence that White would be able to perform any better than Manoah, and given how many times each member of the rotation has experienced terrible starts I think White would be far better utilized as a proper long man to alleviate some of the stress these poor starts have been placing on the bullpen.

[jaysblue]

I said this last year as well. He said some things that made me believe that he doesn't believe in the mental conditioning side of the game. Bring John Lannan in for the next homestand.

 

John Lannan was the best with the Nats! He was their ace before Strasburg!

[Stangstag]

The only silver lining about Manoah's struggles is we haven't paid him yet. Obviously we don't want to give up on him but this a pretty large drop from grace.

 

This front office must have crippling fear of extending guys like Bo and Vlad early. Like damn that Berrios extension looked bad right away

[Omar]

Blue Jays circa 2026-2030 could be really scary, not in a good way. The light at the end of that tunnel is a freight train of no prospects and maybe little player capital to trade with. Atkins will likely jump ship before then though.

[Jimcanuck]

Blue Jays circa 2026-2030 could be really scary, not in a good way. The light at the end of that tunnel is a freight train of no prospects and maybe little player capital to trade with. Atkins will likely jump ship before then though.

 

From now to 2026 is a lifetime, prospects wise.

[Omar]

From now to 2026 is a lifetime, prospects wise.

 

I guess that depends on the orgs scouting ability. Three years will be here before you know it. Rebuild time.

[glory]

Blue Jays circa 2026-2030 could be really scary, not in a good way. The light at the end of that tunnel is a freight train of no prospects and maybe little player capital to trade with. Atkins will likely jump ship before then though.

 

Yeah, it’s looking that way. Atkins has been a solid GM on the big league level but he’s built this team in the exact opposite way you would have imagined when Shatkins took over (massive investment in free agency, trading prospects, no extensions to young players, middling/poor farm system during competitive years). If Atkins, Click, or whoever the GM is over the next few years can keep the train moving without any rebuilding phase in 2026, I’d honestly be shocked at this point.

[gruber92]

I guess that depends on the orgs scouting ability. Three years will be here before you know it. Rebuild time.

 

I think it will be more of a re-tool.

[Stangstag]

Blue Jays circa 2026-2030 could be really scary, not in a good way. The light at the end of that tunnel is a freight train of no prospects and maybe little player capital to trade with. Atkins will likely jump ship before then though.

 

Honestly their best shot at remaining competitive in the future probably involves trading one of Bo/Vlad before they hit free agency and another guy, someone like Gausman maybe. Could really speed up the rebuild timeline and make it more of a retool by trading someone like Bo/Vlad and signing a mid-tier replacement.

 

You absolutely HAVE TO hit on that prospect return though

[BigCecil]

Honestly their best shot at remaining competitive in the future probably involves trading one of Bo/Vlad before they hit free agency and another guy, someone like Gausman maybe. Could really speed up the rebuild timeline and make it more of a retool by trading someone like Bo/Vlad and signing a mid-tier replacement.

 

You absolutely HAVE TO hit on that prospect return though

 

100%. I just don't see a sustainable winner yet compared to other top franchises. I see a lot of $ spent on FA's, raised bullpens/new bars and a 89-93 Win window team.

[Brownie19]

Can we create a separate "rebuild" thread so I don't have to sift through this nonsense?

[BigCecil]

Can we create a separate "rebuild" thread so I don't have to sift through this nonsense?

 

Tell us why this is nonsense big Brownie. Join the fun. Give us your happy talk. Its an option to consider. At least the Rays have done a nice job with that approach, aside from extending Franco.

Edited May 11, 2023 by BigCecil

[jaysblue]

I do care about the organization from 2026 to 2030, though I want this organization to take advantage of the present. This season, 2024 and 2025 are going to be the best windows for this team to contend for a World Series.

 

Right now, this team doesn't look like a World Series contender. They're good enough to make one of the Wildcard spots and afterwards yes anything can happen in the Postseason. Though I hope we can see an ALDS or ALCS this season at least.

[jaysblue]

Honestly their best shot at remaining competitive in the future probably involves trading one of Bo/Vlad before they hit free agency and another guy, someone like Gausman maybe. Could really speed up the rebuild timeline and make it more of a retool by trading someone like Bo/Vlad and signing a mid-tier replacement.

 

You absolutely HAVE TO hit on that prospect return though

 

If both Vlad or Bo aren't extended, do you move one of them before the 2024 season or 2025 season with only one year left?

[Terminator]

The village idiots are talking about a rebuild lmao

[John_Havok]

The village idiots are talking about a rebuild lmao

 

no no a re-tool.

[jaysblue]

no no a re-tool.

 

[M.E.]

Tell us why this is nonsense big Brownie. Join the fun. Give us your happy talk. Its an option to consider. At least the Rays have done a nice job with that approach, aside from extending Franco.

 

I can give my reason. It's May of 2023 and we are in the middle of season where 2026 should likely be one of the furthest topics from discussion. It also seems very reactionary to a bad couple of weeks.

[jaysblue]

If the Jays won the two games in Philly, we wouldn't even be talking about 2026.

 

Yes frustrating losses will admit.

 

If Jays take 2 of 3 from ATL and 2 of 3 from the Yankees, we'll be talking about how amazing this team is!

[John_Havok]

Seems like him and Ricciardi both gave the same spill about not trading prospects and building the farm system for a sustainable winner, but then they both did the exact opposite. He'll probably skip town just like J.P. once the window is closed and our farm system is depleted.

 

Building the farm for a sustainable winner doesnt simply mean keeping every prospect they ever have. It means a combination of keeping them and bringing them up (Bo, Vlad, Kirk, Espinal, Jansen, Biggio, Manoah, Romano, Pearson, Mayza) or trading them for other assets which they did to acquire Berrios and others.

[Terminator]

Now until June 19th is one GAUNTLET of a schedule.

 

ELEVEN straight series against teams with realistic playoff aspirations. No off days until May 29th and then another on June 12th and that's it.

 

If we can get through this part of the schedule, things softens up BIG TIME both before and after the ASB. Tons of games against garbage teams. We don't really face another GAUNTLET until the end of the season when we play 12 straight games against NYY and Tampa.

 

So the key is to play some winning baseball (anything over .500) over the next 5 weeks. If we can do that we will be in great shape, even if we end up 5-7 games out when it's done. They'll be plenty of time to make up ground and the schedule sets us up to do it.

Edited May 11, 2023 by Terminator

[John_Havok]

I can give my reason. It's May of 2023 and we are in the middle of season where 2026 should likely be one of the furthest topics from discussion. It also seems very reactionary to a bad couple of weeks.

 

What bad couple of weeks? they've won 4 of the 6 series they've played since leaving Houston.

[John_Havok]

Orioles just took 2/3 from the Rays.

 

Rays keeping up their tradition of beating terrible teams and losing to good ones

[Orgfiller]

Orioles just took 2/3 from the Rays.

 

Rays keeping up their tradition of beating terrible teams and losing to good ones

 

Meh, I wouldn't quite call the Orioles good just yet. They have a solid lineup with young promising guys, an elite bullpen, but a terrible rotation. Seriously, the bullpen is out-WAR'ing the rotation by almost 2 full wins and it's not even mid-May. The Orioles are the Red Sox with slightly worse hitting and slightly better pitching only due to a better bullpen.

[Terminator]

Meh, I wouldn't quite call the Orioles good just yet. They have a solid lineup with young promising guys, an elite bullpen, but a terrible rotation. Seriously, the bullpen is out-WAR'ing the rotation by almost 2 full wins and it's not even mid-May. The Orioles are the Red Sox with slightly worse hitting and slightly better pitching only due to a better bullpen.

 

Agreed. Both teams could make additions if they stay in it until the trade deadline. With the 3 WC spots that's certainly possible.

 

The Orioles have plenty of prospect capital (though their fanboys on this board won't be able to jerk off to them having the #1 farm system if they trade too much of it away!) and the Red Sox presumably have money.

 

But 2.5 months is an eternity away in MLB and they are going to have to get by with s*** rotations until then.

[John_Havok]

Meh, I wouldn't quite call the Orioles good just yet. They have a solid lineup with young promising guys, an elite bullpen, but a terrible rotation. Seriously, the bullpen is out-WAR'ing the rotation by almost 2 full wins and it's not even mid-May. The Orioles are the Red Sox with slightly worse hitting and slightly better pitching only due to a better bullpen.

 

Yes, their pitching will catch up with them eventually but that offense is legitimately nuts. Their defense is also pretty putrid. They're a good team, but its still early enough that variances and luck are playing a role.

[Olerud363]

Meh, I wouldn't quite call the Orioles good just yet. They have a solid lineup with young promising guys, an elite bullpen, but a terrible rotation. Seriously, the bullpen is out-WAR'ing the rotation by almost 2 full wins and it's not even mid-May. The Orioles are the Red Sox with slightly worse hitting and slightly better pitching only due to a better bullpen.

 

They have Rodriquez and Bradish with not many innings and high k-rates and minor league numbers this board would love, and then they have most of their innings pitched by starters with low k-rates who WAR will hate. So it is a bit deceptive.

 

If the crafty veterans hold it together with their low k-rates and Rodriquez and Bradish perform the rotation will be fine at run prevention but under-rated by WAR.

[Olerud363]

Yes, their pitching will catch up with them eventually but that offense is legitimately nuts. Their defense is also pretty putrid. They're a good team, but its still early enough that variances and luck are playing a role.

 

Aren't their 3b, ss, centerfielder all good defensively? Not Gunmnar Henderson but I recall Urias, Mateo, Mullins all being good d, they'll sort of move Henderson around if he's not good at third and could easily run out a good defensive team.

 

Though they have to also balance that with getting all left handed hitters to take advantage of their freak park.

 

The Orioles are run by x-Houston guys. Everyone on the board always says the Jays aren't 'as smart' as some organizations, and want the x-Houston guys...

 

So aren't these smart X-Houston guys gonna figure out the analytics to get good matchups every game and get the most possible out of this team? I think they'll get the D-guys in when they need them. Make sure the WARless starters with 6 ks per 9 have a good D behind them, get the left handed hitters in other times to take advantage of the freak park. The Orioles are going to be good, especially if you assume Houston guys are smart.

[Carlos Danger]

They have Rodriquez and Bradish with not many innings and high k-rates and minor league numbers this board would love, and then they have most of their innings pitched by starters with low k-rates who WAR will hate. So it is a bit deceptive.

 

If the crafty veterans hold it together with their low k-rates and Rodriquez and Bradish perform the rotation will be fine at run prevention but under-rated by WAR.

 

Wells is pitching well also and Gibson is keeping them in games.. If you have 4 starters anda great pen, you can go places... Just ask the Rays..