Around Baseball 2023

[L54]

The corporate speak part.

 

I think the perfected the corporate speak part and brought it to Toronto and left all the other parts in CLE

[mphenhef]

What part of the pitching factory did Ross and Mark leave in Cleveland?

 

The pitching in the AL Central part

[L54]

Yeah... Our SP development has really been s***.

 

Hopefully that changes with Tiedemann & Barriera, but it seems nearly every pitching prospect we have fails at the upper minors or majors.

 

Manoah didn't, but he was only ever projected to be a #3 type guy, and, now that BABIP has regulated, once he settles in, that's probably likely what he is.

 

Cleveland just turns out #2 and above guys multiple times a year.

 

It’s brutal. All the pitching development sucks. This big bad brand new state of the art top of the line player development complex is developing guys who throw 93 and get 10% whiffs lol

 

Cleveland meanwhile just drafts and develops stud after stud

 

Even after Allen, Bibbee, Williams they have guys like Cantillo and Tanner Burns still in AA. This is after arguably their best prospect’s arm exploded in Espino

[L54]

The pitching in the AL Central part

 

Not buying it

[Orgfiller]

Yeah. THat video of Dahain Santos that someone posted in the prospects thread... im lookking at those 3 pitches and thinking.... 1st one wouldnt even get a sniff of a swing in the upper minors, let alone the majors it was so far out of the zone. The second one was a hanger that would probably have got murdered, but the third one was legit nasty.

 

I wasn't left with a wow factor there overall like the clips you see from Tiedemann. Kid has time to improve sure, but ... like you said, it's like there is something missing in the system that fails to take a guy to the next level, unles it's already obvious that he will be a stud and all he needs is reps.

 

He's 20...in high-A, it's not like anyone is saying he's on Tiedemann's level or anything. Cleveland's market inefficiency and what makes them so good at pitching dev is most of their pitching freaks are boring college pitchers who throw lots of strikes with okay stuff and somehow they get them to be strikeout monsters. Toronto will already draft the big power arms early - guys like Pearson, Manoah, Ricky Tieds, Barriera, Nick Frasso even - although IIRC Frasso started out as projectable arm, the big velo didn't come until later. I wonder how differently the pitching dev would be viewed if Pearson wasn't made of paper mache. Just because Berrios, Kikuchi were garbage last year doesn't mean the org targets soft tossers with "pitchability". Both of them are guys with good stuff, ditto Gausman and Manoah.

 

They've also gotten career years out of Robbie Ray, Steven Matz, Ross Stripling and sold/let them go at the right times. To some extent that's a skill, it's just annoying and unfortunate that they haven't been able to develop these kinds of arms themselves. It's why I haven't given up on Mitch White yet, the org has found success with players of his ilk in the Shatkins era.

[G-Snarls]

Matt Harvey announced his retirement today

[John_Havok]

Hitting hasn’t been better. Claiming Vlad and Bo wasn’t the same regime for one and for two, it’s going to be like a one hit wonder trying to claim success from their hit 6 years back or whatever it is

 

Hitting development has actually been pretty good. Bo, Kirk, Moreno (traded) after vlad is pretty good. Getting 1 addition to the lineup on average per year is all you can really hope for when a team never tanks and bottom dwells for 5 seasons in a row.

 

even getting 5 WAR out of Biggio in his first 4-ish seasons is far better than a lot of orgs get out of their 1st rounders.

[Jonn]

Matt Harvey announced his retirement today

 

The Blue Jays fan or the pitcher

[John_Havok]

He's 20...in high-A, it's not like anyone is saying he's on Tiedemann's level or anything. Cleveland's market inefficiency and what makes them so good at pitching dev is most of their pitching freaks are boring college pitchers who throw lots of strikes with okay stuff and somehow they get them to be strikeout monsters. Toronto will already draft the big power arms early - guys like Pearson, Manoah, Ricky Tieds, Barriera, Nick Frasso even - although IIRC Frasso started out as projectable arm, the big velo didn't come until later. I wonder how differently the pitching dev would be viewed if Pearson wasn't made of paper mache. Just because Berrios, Kikuchi were garbage last year doesn't mean the org targets soft tossers with "pitchability". Both of them are guys with good stuff, ditto Gausman and Manoah.

 

They've also gotten career years out of Robbie Ray, Steven Matz, Ross Stripling and sold/let them go at the right times. To some extent that's a skill, it's just annoying and unfortunate that they haven't been able to develop these kinds of arms themselves. It's why I haven't given up on Mitch White yet, the org has found success with players of his ilk in the Shatkins era.

 

Yeah I get there's some hyperbole of course coming from the guys covering the Canadians. I just think a headline that says he has nearly big league ready stuff is just stupid. It's very clear that he doesnt have big league ready stuff.

[Orgfiller]

Hitting development has actually been pretty good. Bo, Kirk, Moreno (traded) after vlad is pretty good. Getting 1 addition to the lineup on average per year is all you can really hope for when a team never tanks and bottom dwells for 5 seasons in a row.

 

even getting 5 WAR out of Biggio in his first 4-ish seasons is far better than a lot of orgs get out of their 1st rounders.

 

4 WAR out of Espinal over two full seasons too, for what was at best a 40 FV prospect. Danny Jansen wasn't a Shatkins pick, but any/all of his success at the MiLB + MLB levels came post 2016. Everyone's just being a doomer now after the embarrassing 4 game sweep in Boston, but at the end of April (literally one week ago) nobody was talking about how much of a disaster the player dev is.

[MikeM3]

It’s brutal. All the pitching development sucks. This big bad brand new state of the art top of the line player development complex is developing guys who throw 93 and get 10% whiffs lol

 

Cleveland meanwhile just drafts and develops stud after stud

 

Even after Allen, Bibbee, Williams they have guys like Cantillo and Tanner Burns still in AA. This is after arguably their best prospect’s arm exploded in Espino

 

They gave the contract for that complex to their buddies and they filled it with leg press machines and called it a day.

[L54]

They gave the contract for that complex to their buddies and they filled it with leg press machines and called it a day.

 

Hahaha come on now

 

You have to imagine the complex has the ability to be one of the premier facilities in pro ball

 

But where are the results??

 

Just pay Kyle Boddy 5M a year to run it

[Omar]

Pittsburgh, Tampa and Baltimore. Three of the four lowest payrolls in MLB (Oakland is the lowest) and winning. Welcome to the bizarro world. I’m still optimistic about my luxury tax Jays.

[connorp]

Hitting development has actually been pretty good. Bo, Kirk, Moreno (traded) after vlad is pretty good. Getting 1 addition to the lineup on average per year is all you can really hope for when a team never tanks and bottom dwells for 5 seasons in a row.

 

even getting 5 WAR out of Biggio in his first 4-ish seasons is far better than a lot of orgs get out of their 1st rounders.

 

2+ years until we possibly lose Bo or Vlad (and Springer is that much older). I don’t think it’s doom or gloom to look toward that and consider what’s it the pipeline. Most of the recent guys like Otto, Barger, Kevin Smith and anyone I can think of were flops/struggling now. Biggio and Espy look pretty bad, don’t think that’s just a sss.

 

There has to be some guys that are legit mlb guys making pre arb money to have money for FA. Just don’t think there’s been good development with that. I’ve been a Captain Kirk supporter but what he is still seems up in the air

[John_Havok]

4 WAR out of Espinal over two full seasons too, for what was at best a 40 FV prospect. Danny Jansen wasn't a Shatkins pick, but any/all of his success at the MiLB + MLB levels came post 2016. Everyone's just being a doomer now after the embarrassing 4 game sweep in Boston, but at the end of April (literally one week ago) nobody was talking about how much of a disaster the player dev is.

 

Yeah. I think it's about time Schneider and co just go with the best 9 day in and day out and stop the carousel. THe best lineup right how is 7 deep, and I have faith that Springer will turn it around. This is sorted by wRC+

 

[connorp]

I will agree with the belief Springer will be fine if he stays healthy. That should balance out any regression with Whitfield and KK

[L54]

The Blue Jays fan or the pitcher

 

Hopefully the Blue Jays fan

[Omar]

Yeah. I think it's about time Schneider and co just go with the best 9 day in and day out and stop the carousel. THe best lineup right how is 7 deep, and I have faith that Springer will turn it around. This is sorted by wRC+

 

 

Biggio. Yikes! I think he is on a 2 for 30 in his last 30 AB’s. What a precipitous fall.

[John_Havok]

2+ years until we possibly lose Bo or Vlad (and Springer is that much older). I don’t think it’s doom or gloom to look toward that and consider what’s it the pipeline. Most of the recent guys like Otto, Barger, Kevin Smith and anyone I can think of were flops/struggling now. Biggio and Espy look pretty bad, don’t think that’s just a sss.

 

There has to be some guys that are legit mlb guys making pre arb money to have money for FA. Just don’t think there’s been good development with that. I’ve been a Captain Kirk supporter but what he is still seems up in the air

 

They're past that point already, they had that 2 years ago with Vlad and Bo.. which allowed them to sign multiple guys theyve already signed and Kirk and Manoah are still pre-arb this season though both will hit Arb 1 next season. This is exactly the stage the jays should be in right now, they're just getting absolutely nothing so far from Springer, Espinal, Jansen, Biggio and Belt. There's no way anyone can tell me that prior to this season they would pick those 5 guys to be as bad as they have been. Sure, nobody was epxecting all star levels performance, but none of them have a wRC+ above 70. I know there's Biggio haters everywhere that think before this year he was terrible and worth cutting, which just want true, but he's not doing himself any favours right now that's for sure.

 

 

Springer will bounce back. Jansen will bounce back. I have no belief in Biggio Belt or Espinal's bats at this point though to even approach their career norms.

[Ehjays]

[John_Havok]

Grant trying for some revenge after the sweep and take out a reliever or two?

[Jonn]

Yankees got Harrison “Master” Bader back and hits a big Homerun against the Rays

[Carlos Danger]

Luis Garcia HOU- TJ. Big blow to the Astros!

[Jimcanuck]

Luis Garcia HOU- TJ. Big blow to the Astros!

 

Forrest Whitley going to finally get the call.

[BTS]

Also Rodon apparently has a degenerative back issue and is not sure when he’ll pitch again

[Laika]

Also Rodon apparently has a degenerative back issue and is not sure when he’ll pitch again

 

Shut down with a forearm strain in spring

 

Early May it has now devolved into a degenerative back issue

 

Hahaha

[BTS]

Shut down with a forearm strain in spring

 

Early May it has now devolved into a degenerative back issue

 

Hahaha

 

That contract is going to be a massive sunk cost for NY

[Stangstag]

Shut down with a forearm strain in spring

 

Early May it has now devolved into a degenerative back issue

 

Hahaha

 

Yoof. What a walk year for him, glad the Yanks fell for that trap

[Stangstag]

Lol Teo with an absolute bonehead move in the 9th inning. Ms losing 6-4, Teo hits a single to start the inning and tries to stretch it into a double for some crazy reason and gets thrown out at 2nd.

[Carlos Danger]

Forrest Whitley going to finally get the call.

 

They called up T.J France for now, but might be just a temp move.