Blue Jays acquire Daulton Varsho for Moreno and Gurriel

[John_Havok]

He comes with warts for sure, but he was a 4 WAR player in 2021 and a 3 WAR player in 2022 based on offensive contributions.

 

You guys are right, he strikes out a lot and he demonstrates low IQ on the bases. But IF he comes on a reasonable 1 or 2 year deal, you can totally overhaul the offense by adding him and another power bat for DH / backup first or OF. I don't think it HAS to be Teo in LF, but the lineup needs some power and the FA class is pretty ugly.

 

Yes, but some of that power has to come from the guys already here. Bo with 25, Vlad with 35, Varsho with 25, Jansen/Kirk combining for 30, all of those things should be projected reasonably. Not sure where Schneider would project as I haven’t looked that up but with full playing time, 20 would be a reasonable expectation. Rotation DH role should net 20+ give or take. Springer 20+ with health, (though he’d probably project higher) That’s 175 right there without thinking about who’s playing LF or 3b. Adding 40 or more combined there puts them in the top 10 in mlb. I don’t see them contending with Atlanta for the MLB lead at over 300.

 

I suppose my overall point from not wanting Teo is…I want someone in the lineup who doesn’t just hit HRs and is patently useless the rest of the time.

[TorontonianJD]

Gurriel looking so good.

 

What a disaster for Atkins.

[jaysblue]

What the team actually needs is a star they can rely on for 4-5 wins, because Vlad isn’t that. Their 2024 season isn’t going to hinge on whether their 2-win LF is mostly bat or mostly glove.

 

I said this earlier but was met with sarcasm.

 

Yup Jays need to add another elite player who can give them 4-5 WAR. Can't rely on Vlad being that player.

[jaysblue]

Yes they do and that player is likely to be borderline elite offensively because not many glove first 5 WAR players. I will be ATTACKED for saying this but they clearly need another all star caliber player if they’re going to be serious

 

Agreed!

 

It's alright I took the bullet for saying this earlier haha.

[Nexii]

Moreno was only around 2 WAR, same as Varsho on the year. It still remains to be seen whether it was good or bad at the end.

 

Not many 4-5 WAR position players on the market. Ohtani, Bellinger, or Chapman is about it.

 

Otherwise, we look at more pitching and hope for an offensive rebound.

[L54]

Moreno was only around 2 WAR, same as Varsho on the year. It still remains to be seen whether it was good or bad at the end.

 

Not many 4-5 WAR position players on the market. Ohtani, Bellinger, or Chapman is about it.

 

Otherwise, we look at more pitching and hope for an offensive rebound.

 

I actually think the Jays would be thrilled if Chapman accepted the QO. Leaves the rest of the offseason to focus on getting one more hitter of substance

[L54]

Agreed!

 

It's alright I took the bullet for saying this earlier haha.

 

I don’t see how it’s controversial to be honest

[John_Havok]

I don’t see how it’s controversial to be honest

 

I do t think anyone disagrees that having another all star calibre talent isnt needed.

 

It's just that it doesn't necessarily have to come from this year's FA pickings. It could come via trade or by someone already in the fold stepping up.

 

Would anyone be truly shocked if Bo, Vlad and one other position player already on the team were deserving all stars next season?

[L54]

I do t think anyone disagrees that having another all star calibre talent isnt needed.

 

It's just that it doesn't necessarily have to come from this year's FA pickings. It could come via trade or by someone already in the fold stepping up.

 

Would anyone be truly shocked if Bo, Vlad and one other position player already on the team were deserving all stars next season?

 

Never said they had to sign one. Of course the trade route applies to bringing in players.

 

You’re right it could happen internally but…. who? Even if you have one player breakout with 3.5 WAR all you’ve done is replaced Chapman’s production.

 

Yes I would be shocked if Bo, Vlad and one other current hitter had a 4 WAR season in 2024. I don’t think betting on that happening is a recipe for success

[Stangstag]

Never said they had to sign one. Of course the trade route applies to bringing in players.

 

You’re right it could happen internally but…. who? Even if you have one player breakout with 3.5 WAR all you’ve done is replaced Chapman’s production.

 

Yes I would be shocked if Bo, Vlad and one other current hitter had a 4 WAR season in 2024. I don’t think betting on that happening is a recipe for success

 

Banking on your core players meeting projections isn’t a recipe for success??

 

You’re just as likely to acquire someone like Luis Robert and wind up having a disappointing 3 WAR season from them… nothing is guaranteed.

 

Im not exactly sure what you expect from this front office.

 

Bottom line IMO is they need to figure out why half the lineup underperformed and fix that. Something was very wrong with the approach/hitting process for a handful of our core guys. That is the only real way this team can improve, because trying to find an external player to put up a 4+ WAR season is unrealistic.

[Spanky99]

I don’t see how it’s controversial to be honest

 

I don't think what jaysblue said is controversial, it's a fair comment. It'd just be very hard to acquire unless they sign a guy like Belly or they move our top farmhands, that'd suck, but they kind of have to win now. Tough decisions for the front office.

[jaysblue]

I don't think what jaysblue said is controversial, it's a fair comment. It'd just be very hard to acquire unless they sign a guy like Belly or they move our top farmhands, that'd suck, but they kind of have to win now. Tough decisions for the front office.

 

We're already going to be in 2024, Year 4 (or 5 if you count 2020) of what is considered their prime window to contend. I hate bringing up the negatives, but thus far the results haven't been spectacular. Need to win now over these next two years when you have guys like Bo and Vladdy still under contract and arms like Gausman, Berrios, Bassitt pitching in top form and healthy. Every season that goes by, the window gets smaller and smaller.

[jaysblue]

I don’t see how it’s controversial to be honest

 

Vladdy hasn't been that elite guy for the last two years. Jays are losing some valuable FAs like Chapman, and some FA pickups last offseason who they got lucky with in Belt and KK. That's 9-10 WAR right there.

 

Jays can't mess around in 2024 and 2025. You either make the upgrades necessary to put yourself in the conversation as a World Series contender, or you keep the status quo where you're an 85-90 win team who just sneaks into the Postseason and hope to get lucky at the right time. Another elite player is needed, whether that's through free agency or trade.

[Laika]

why are people saying "we need another star player" and then acting like they are being attacked?

 

bizarro victim culture in here

[Laika]

"we should acquire a star player"

 

"it's hard to do that bro..."

 

"why are you tarring and feathering me!!!!"

[Brownie19]

Personally, I think the trade route is the best option but not sure the Jays would have enough to land a bat like Soto if they dealt just prospects. It's a shame because I thought Shapiro and Atkins from Day 1 wanted to always have an influx of highly touted young prospects in the minors. I don't really see that.

 

I'm not comfortable giving Bellinger $25-30M per season. But if the Jays can't go the trade route, Belly would be better than nothing. We'll see what happens. Soto would be ideal and since he only has one year left, Padres might be open to moving him.

 

Window is closing fast. 2024 and 2025 are probably the last good opportunities to go for a World Series.

 

Unfortunately, I think there's a very good chance it's already closed. I find it very difficult to see how we're going to add the pieces we need to be a true contender next year via free agency or trade. The FA list is kind of ugly this year and I'm not sure we're in a position to add another long term deal (without massive risk). And I'm not sure we have the farm system to add the talent we need (unless it's completely gutted). Maybe Atkins has the balls to go "all in" and sacrifice the future of the team by signing more long term deals or selling the farm, but I have my doubts that we'll be adding much 'new' talent this offseason.

 

I think we're an 80-90 win team that will have to rely on a recurrence from it's current players and a bit of luck if we're going to make the playoffs and/or contend in 2024. Vlad, Kirk, Manoah, Varsho will need to bounce back in a big way and we'll probably need some rookies to step up and breakout (Ricky T, Davis S, Orelvis, Horwitz, etc.). Maybe we need to find the next late bloomer (like Joey Bats/EE/Teo)? If fans think it's realistic to add another star player or two this offseason, I think they're setting themselves up for disappointment.

 

I can already hear them now in August 2024 - complaining this FO failed to add the talent they needed this offseason and calling for them to be fired. I'm just not sure I see the right avenue for that to happen.

[Laika]

Unfortunately, I think there's a very good chance it's already closed. I find it very difficult to see how we're going to add the pieces we need to be a true contender next year via free agency or trade. The FA list is kind of ugly this year and I'm not sure we're in a position to add another long term deal (without massive risk). And I'm not sure we have the farm system to add the talent we need (unless it's completely gutted). Maybe Atkins has the balls to go "all in" and sacrifice the future of the team by signing more long term deals or selling the farm, but I have my doubts that we'll be adding much 'new' talent this offseason.

 

I think we're an 80-90 win team that will have to rely on a recurrence from it's current players and a bit of luck if we're going to make the playoffs and/or contend in 2024. Vlad, Kirk, Manoah, Varsho will need to bounce back in a big way and we'll probably need some rookies to step up and breakout (Ricky T, Davis S, Orelvis, Horwitz, etc.). Maybe we need to find the next late bloomer (like Joey Bats/EE/Teo)? If fans think it's realistic to add another star player or two this offseason, I think they're setting themselves up for disappointment.

 

I can already hear them now in August 2024 - complaining this FO failed to add the talent they needed this offseason. I'm just not sure I see the right avenue for that to happen.

 

Toronto hasn't been shy about trading prospects.

I actually could see them swinging a trade for a star. Not sure who would be available. Atkins might finally feel pressure to kind of "save his job" too.

 

I dunno. It's a possibility. Not a huge chance of it happening of course.

 

It is harder to trade for star players with control in the expended playoffs era because like 27/30 teams probably think they can compete within 3 years.

I'm glancing at the list of 2027/2026 free agents and seeing basically nobody who is an obvious trade candidate (most stars are on competitive enough teams). Luis Robert is pretty much it, on the offensive side.

[BTS]

Unfortunately, I think there's a very good chance it's already closed. I find it very difficult to see how we're going to add the pieces we need to be a true contender next year via free agency or trade. The FA list is kind of ugly this year and I'm not sure we're in a position to add another long term deal (without massive risk). And I'm not sure we have the farm system to add the talent we need (unless it's completely gutted). Maybe Atkins has the balls to go "all in" and sacrifice the future of the team by signing more long term deals or selling the farm, but I have my doubts that we'll be adding much 'new' talent this offseason.

 

I think we're an 80-90 win team that will have to rely on a recurrence from it's current players and a bit of luck if we're going to make the playoffs and/or contend in 2024. Vlad, Kirk, Manoah, Varsho will need to bounce back in a big way and we'll probably need some rookies to step up and breakout (Ricky T, Davis S, Orelvis, Horwitz, etc.). Maybe we need to find the next late bloomer (like Joey Bats/EE/Teo)? If fans think it's realistic to add another star player or two this offseason, I think they're setting themselves up for disappointment.

 

I can already hear them now in August 2024 - complaining this FO failed to add the talent they needed this offseason and calling for them to be fired. I'm just not sure I see the right avenue for that to happen.

 

I'm going to get viciously attacked for saying this, but the team will be one of like 8 teams good enough to win the WS next year if Vlad plays to his potential. We're talking about a guy we expected to be a Yordan Alvarez level producer who played like a right-handed Justin Bour.

 

I'll also get mercilessly lambasted for saying that, while not likely, it's still a feasible path to 95+ wins. The rest of the roster is pretty solid.

[BTS]

Toronto hasn't been shy about trading prospects.

I actually could see them swinging a trade for a star. Not sure who would be available. Atkins might finally feel pressure to kind of "save his job" too.

 

I dunno. It's a possibility. Not a huge chance of it happening of course.

 

It is harder to trade for star players with control in the expended playoffs era because like 27/30 teams probably think they can compete within 3 years.

I'm glancing at the list of 2027/2026 free agents and seeing basically nobody who is an obvious trade candidate (most stars are on competitive enough teams). Luis Robert is pretty much it, on the offensive side.

 

Glasnow

[deanmike]

Unfortunately, I think there's a very good chance it's already closed. I find it very difficult to see how we're going to add the pieces we need to be a true contender next year via free agency or trade. The FA list is kind of ugly this year and I'm not sure we're in a position to add another long term deal (without massive risk). And I'm not sure we have the farm system to add the talent we need (unless it's completely gutted). Maybe Atkins has the balls to go "all in" and sacrifice the future of the team by signing more long term deals or selling the farm, but I have my doubts that we'll be adding much 'new' talent this offseason.

 

I think we're an 80-90 win team that will have to rely on a recurrence from it's current players and a bit of luck if we're going to make the playoffs and/or contend in 2024. Vlad, Kirk, Manoah, Varsho will need to bounce back in a big way and we'll probably need some rookies to step up and breakout (Ricky T, Davis S, Orelvis, Horwitz, etc.). Maybe we need to find the next late bloomer (like Joey Bats/EE/Teo)? If fans think it's realistic to add another star player or two this offseason, I think they're setting themselves up for disappointment.

 

I can already hear them now in August 2024 - complaining this FO failed to add the talent they needed this offseason. I'm just not sure I see the right avenue for that to happen.

 

The story of this core's failure to capitalize on their window will be the 3 Pillsbury doughbois all turning into (fatass) pumpkins and their struggles with addiction.

 

Vlad's addiction to his grandma's cooking and uncrustables.

 

Manoah's addiction to Mary Brown's chicken and family size bags of Doritos (to himself) combined with a sense of entitlement to major league pay even though he's a minor league bum.

 

And Kirk is literally on record as being a guy who loves his cheat days and very much looks forward to them. My guess is, this tubby piece of garbage has 6-7 cheat days a week.

 

These guys all have crippling addictions which are preventing them from shedding their obesity. Maybe a stretch to say Kirk is addicted to cheat days but he does love and look forward to them that's for sure.

[Laika]

Glasnow

 

didn't look at the SP side. figure they'll just depth fill the open spot. maybe bring in a Kyle Gibson type or bring back Ryu for $8M or something.

[Laika]

I'm going to get viciously attacked for saying this, but the team will be one of like 8 teams good enough to win the WS next year if Vlad plays to his potential. We're talking about a guy we expected to be a Yordan Alvarez level producer who played like a right-handed Justin Bour.

 

I'll also get mercilessly lambasted for saying that, while not likely, it's still a feasible path to 95+ wins. The rest of the roster is pretty solid.

 

I am stirring the TAR and plucking the FEATHERS right now. Stay put

[Krylian]

why are people saying "we need another star player" and then acting like they are being attacked?

 

bizarro victim culture in here

 

Probably because star players cost significant assets or cash...or both. There's often an underlying narrative of "value". I.e. I'd rather have a 2 WAR guy making $8m over a 5 WAR guy making $25m... Cause that gives you $17m to spread around. Tampa only does what they do out of necessity. If they had money, believe me, they'd spend it.

[L54]

why are people saying "we need another star player" and then acting like they are being attacked?

 

bizarro victim culture in here

 

"we should acquire a star player"

 

"it's hard to do that bro..."

 

"why are you tarring and feathering me!!!!"

 

I told you the attacks would fly

[L54]

Probably because star players cost significant assets or cash...or both. There's often an underlying narrative of "value". I.e. I'd rather have a 2 WAR guy making $8m over a 5 WAR guy making $25m... Cause that gives you $17m to spread around. Tampa only does what they do out of necessity. If they had money, believe me, they'd spend it.

 

I’m actually not sure this is true and thought about it this season regarding KK vs Bellinger

 

Would you be willing to pay more $/WAR if it meant consolidating those WARz into a single player? I think so

 

Player A - two wins at 4M a pop

 

Player B - five wins at 5M a pop

 

Give me the 5 WAR player

[Krylian]

I’m actually not sure this is true and thought about it this season regarding KK vs Bellinger

 

Would you be willing to pay more $/WAR if it meant consolidating those WARz into a single player? I think so

 

Player A - two wins at 4M a pop

 

Player B - five wins at 5M a pop

 

Give me the 5 WAR player

 

I completely agree...but I think there are a lot of people that put a lot of value in "value". Didn't someone on here ask what the WAR comparison per dollar was between KK and Bellinger? Don't remember who it was or what the numbers said, but my point is, a lot of people still think the Tampa way is the best way.

[L54]

Banking on your core players meeting projections isn’t a recipe for success??

 

You’re just as likely to acquire someone like Luis Robert and wind up having a disappointing 3 WAR season from them… nothing is guaranteed.

 

Im not exactly sure what you expect from this front office.

 

Bottom line IMO is they need to figure out why half the lineup underperformed and fix that. Something was very wrong with the approach/hitting process for a handful of our core guys. That is the only real way this team can improve, because trying to find an external player to put up a 4+ WAR season is unrealistic.

 

Biggio

Varsho

Schneider

Springer

Kirk

 

Who is putting up 4 WAR? My bet is none

 

Not sure who would be meeting their projections by hitting 4 WAR but that projection system needs calibrating

[L54]

I completely agree...but I think there are a lot of people that put a lot of value in "value". Didn't someone on here ask what the WAR comparison per dollar was between KK and Bellinger? Don't remember who it was or what the numbers said, but my point is, a lot of people still think the Tampa way is the best way.

 

Ahh I see what you mean

 

Yes I agree with you. I don’t care if I pay 500K more per WAR for Bellinger than KK if I get twice the production.

[John_Havok]

Never said they had to sign one. Of course the trade route applies to bringing in players.

 

You’re right it could happen internally but…. who? Even if you have one player breakout with 3.5 WAR all you’ve done is replaced Chapman’s production.

 

Yes I would be shocked if Bo, Vlad and one other current hitter had a 4 WAR season in 2024. I don’t think betting on that happening is a recipe for success

 

I’m not really betting on it either, just saying it’s not crazy. Vlad and Bo being 4fWAR is a reasonable expectation. Davis Schneider? Springer? Jansen or Kirk? All of the above have shown they have the talents, its just a matter of health, age and experience there. I wouldn’t bet on any of those 4 individually but if I had to pick from a few guys who could get there, it would be between those 4.

[connorp]

Biggio

Varsho

Schneider

Springer

Kirk

 

Who is putting up 4 WAR? My bet is none

 

Not sure who would be meeting their projections by hitting 4 WAR but that projection system needs calibrating

 

Pretty sure he read it wrong and didn’t understand you meant someone other than Bo and Vlad would need to be a 4 WAR guy

Edited October 10, 2023 by connorp