Blue Jays acquire Daulton Varsho for Moreno and Gurriel

[jaysblue]

I've never seen a trade discussed or argued so much over an entire season. What's done is done.

 

So far, doesn't look like it's one of Atkin's best deals, but still not writing off Varsho. Hopefully he has a 4-5 WAR season next year and that will make things look better on the Jays end.

[G-Snarls]

I've never seen a trade discussed or argued so much over an entire season. What's done is done.

 

So far, doesn't look like it's one of Atkin's best deals, but still not writing off Varsho. Hopefully he has a 4-5 WAR season next year and that will make things look better on the Jays end.

 

That plus a Danny Jansen extension and we're all good

[TorontonianJD]

Worst trade in Jays history?

 

Another reason why Atkins must go.

[Jonn]

It’s not the worst but it’s up there for sure.

[Key22]

I've never seen a trade discussed or argued so much over an entire season. What's done is done.

 

So far, doesn't look like it's one of Atkin's best deals, but still not writing off Varsho. Hopefully he has a 4-5 WAR season next year and that will make things look better on the Jays end.

 

Varsho had a 3.9 WAR this year - he is ranked as the second-best defensive CF in all of baseball. The problem isn't Varsho. Ideally, if you could create a very good offensive team - you would have Varsho batting 9th and playing all-star defense in CF and you would take a 3.9 WAR player all day as your 9-hole hitter.

 

But because most of the guys you expected to hit were garbage you had the guy in the 5-6 hole and he didn't perform.

 

Gabriel Moreno had a 4.3 WAR and Lourdes was 3.0 WAR and Teoscar was 2.1 = 9.4

VS

Varsho 3.9, Swanson 1.4 = 5.3

 

But to be fair - the Jays reduced payroll and cleared space on the roster for Belt (2.0) and KK (3.9) who were acquired to replace Teo and Loudes = 5.9+ the 5.3 = 11.2

 

Trades aren't done in a vacuum so I look at it more big picture - The Jays probably misread what Varsho would be - as they did with Grichuck. So if the organization is all about process then they need to have a process wherein they figure out why they are misreading talent.

 

They have a lot of money coming off the books - the free agent market is generally weak but if the team is really going to improve the lineup in a big way they should probably target Cody Bellinger as a left-handed hitting threat and add a guy like JD Martinez as a DH power bat. This team badly needs at least 2 thumpers and I hate to say it but if you can find any takers on Springer (eating a bunch of salary) the Jays should look at it before he becomes a Vernon Wells albatross (if it already isn't too late).

[Spanky99]

bWAR suxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

[Sorrow]

For what it’s worth fWAR and WARP aren’t big Moreno fans.

 

Moreno had 0.3 WARP and 1.7 fWAR because they both really dislike his D. Kirk was 3.2 WARP and Jano 1.8.

[John_Havok]

This is why I am actively rooting against Arizona, just to hopefully avoid the constant avalanche of uninformed ignorant whining about Moreno

[Spanky99]

This is why I am actively rooting against Arizona, just to hopefully avoid the constant avalanche of uninformed ignorant whining about Moreno

 

The process of that trade was sound, we'll see in a few short years anyway. I thought it was pricey, but understood the process, can't change my mind.

[Stangstag]

This is why I am actively rooting against Arizona, just to hopefully avoid the constant avalanche of uninformed ignorant whining about Moreno

 

Lol yeah. You just know which posters here will be piling on if Arizona continues to go on a run…

[DigitalRock]

This is why I am actively rooting against Arizona, just to hopefully avoid the constant avalanche of uninformed ignorant whining about Moreno

 

100 percent the social media jays fans are insufferable. Plus the media playing off fan rage for clicks.

[L54]

AZ is a really fun team and the Dodgers are vulnerable so I’m rooting for them.

[Olerud363]

For what itÂ’s worth fWAR and WARP arenÂ’t big Moreno fans.

 

Moreno had 0.3 WARP and 1.7 fWAR because they both really dislike his D. Kirk was 3.2 WARP and Jano 1.8.

 

Kirk, Moreno, and Varsho were all between 1.5 and 2 fWAR I believe.

 

If you average out all the different version of WAR, and consider past performance and minor league performance.

 

1. Kirk is slightly better than Moreno (he has been better every other year, and was only slightly worse this year)

2. Varsho = Moreno again consider past performance not just this year.

 

So it comes down to

 

1. some people on the board not believing an Obese 300 pound 5 foot 4 guy can beat a real sharp looking athlete long term...

2. a 26 year old guy hitting .220 with supposed major holes in his swing will never recover to even hit .240

 

May also come down to Moreno display some impressive raw power... however I believe in 2021 and 2022 Kirk would also hit 420 foot 106 mph per hour shots... don't remember him doing it much this year, still Kirk out-homered Moreno 8-7.

[Olerud363]

100 percent the social media jays fans are insufferable. Plus the media playing off fan rage for clicks.

 

 

It's amazing how it's divided into 2 camps.

 

1. Fire Atkins and Shapiro and get better analytics and catch up to other teams with the swing mechanics, hitting strategy, nutrition and psychology. We are behind in the advanced stuff, too little is the problem not too much.

2. Fire Atkins and Shaprio, burn all the tablets and computers, hire Buck Martinez as GM, institute minimum pitch count of 120 and find some RBI guys like Joe Carter.

[Jonn]

Moreno has been nothing short of dynamic in this post season so far. Not only does he come up with big clutch hits he completely eliminates the other teams running game.

 

He’s going to be a good player in this league for a long time. I still can’t believe the Jays traded him. Varsho’s plate struggles have just compounded the issue. If we really wanted a Defensive Outfielder with control I really don’t think they needed to part with the organization #1 prospect.

 

Plus Jansen can’t stay healthy and Kirk is a disaster.

[Olerud363]

Kirk is a disaster.

 

This is ridiculous. Multiple advanced analytics systems have Kirk and Moreno essentially even this year, when Kirk had a horrible year by his own standards.

 

Kirk has a weight problem, I don't know if he wants to fix it, if it will be fixed, or what effect it will have on his next 3 years. I have no problem if Posters think Kirk will never be able to control his weight and/or the weight will effect his hitting long term.

 

But to call him a disaster isn't true as of right now.

[BigCecil]

Its possible to both like/value Varsho and realize what an overpay it was. Time will tell where it ranks on the Thor scale.

[connorp]

It's amazing how it's divided into 2 camps.

 

1. Fire Atkins and Shapiro and get better analytics and catch up to other teams with the swing mechanics, hitting strategy, nutrition and psychology. We are behind in the advanced stuff, too little is the problem not too much.

2. Fire Atkins and Shaprio, burn all the tablets and computers, hire Buck Martinez as GM, institute minimum pitch count of 120 and find some RBI guys like Joe Carter.

 

I don’t think it’s that black-and-white.

 

What the Jays just did with Berrios I don’t even think TB would’ve done. Controversy came when they took Snell out in the Bottom of the 6th, going through the order the 3rd time. I don’t think anyone else would’ve done that with their #2 SP. It comes only a few years after pulling a SP that piggybacked and was dealing for a journeyman who I’m not sure ever pitched again in mlb. The manager should get the axe for that inexplicable move.

 

Their big trade this year was WAR driven and celebrated here en masse. The guy didn’t even OPS .700 and was a black hole hitting 9th at the end of the season. The other guy may be a big star in a couple years.

 

The farm doesn’t have anything to be excited about, really. One pitcher and dreams after that.

 

This is a team with a decent budget.

[BigCecil]

This is ridiculous. Multiple advanced analytics systems have Kirk and Moreno essentially even this year, when Kirk had a horrible year by his own standards.

 

Kirk has a weight problem, I don't know if he wants to fix it, if it will be fixed, or what effect it will have on his next 3 years. I have no problem if Posters think Kirk will never be able to control his weight and/or the weight will effect his hitting long term.

 

But to call him a disaster isn't true as of right now.

 

True. I think we all hoped for more than a 96 wRC+ and 1.6 WAR for the season from him.

 

He gets value from framing. I think you will see a robo ump balls and strikes appeal system by 2026 latest. That "skill" will become less valuable. So far, moreno is not a good framer.

 

If he loses 25 lbs we think it will really help. Hope he does. I'd rather have Moreno than Kirk now at the end the day.

[jaysblue]

Its possible to both like/value Varsho and realize what an overpay it was. Time will tell where it ranks on the Thor scale.

 

I like Varsho and think he can still be a useful player. Easy guy to root for. Not a star or anything. Did the Jays overpay for him though? Right now it's safe to say they really did overpay for a career 96 wRC+ type of bat. Varsho has some good skills but a lot of flaws. When you trade a top prospect like Moreno, you want to trade him in a deal for an elite player or pitcher with a track record. Varsho isn't that. Even coming into 2023, his highest wRC+ was only 107. Far from elite offensively.

 

I think having Varsho in CF next season will definitely provide more value defensively and make up for his bat. Sure he still has some potential offensively. Likely settles in as a .250/.320/.450 type of bat with 25-30 HR's and 15-20 SBs. I think that's his ceiling. That's solid offensive production from your CF, though he's not a middle-of-the-order bat or offensive star we thought he could be.

[Jonn]

I like Varsho and think he can still be a useful player. Easy guy to root for. Not a star or anything. Did the Jays overpay for him though? Right now it's safe to say they really did overpay for a career 96 wRC+ type of bat. Varsho has some good skills but a lot of flaws. When you trade a top prospect like Moreno, you want to trade him in a deal for an elite player or pitcher with a track record. Varsho isn't that. Even coming into 2023, his highest wRC+ was only 107. Far from elite offensively.

 

I think having Varsho in CF next season will definitely provide more value defensively and make up for his bat. Sure he still has some potential offensively. Likely settles in as a .250/.320/.450 type of bat with 25-30 HR's and 15-20 SBs. I think that's his ceiling. That's solid offensive production from your CF, though he's not a middle-of-the-order bat or offensive star we thought he could be.

 

Is Varsho easy to cheer for because he’s 5’7 and looks like he’s from Lindsay, Ontario?

 

I don’t want feel good stories. I want attractive alpha dogs. Picking him over Kiermaier is like choosing Rudy over the hottest guy at school.

[BigCecil]

They didn't do Varsho any favors putting in the #4 hole to start the season. I can't imagine that helped his confidence. 22% worse bat in 23 than 22.

 

In CF if healthy and as good on D, and is a LA bat, he is a 3-4 WAR ish player. Add some lumber in LF.

 

Given the control & age delta, upside potential, position - I think it was a big overpay but he can add a lot of value. Thats what we all want to see in '24.

[BatFlip]

Is Varsho easy to cheer for because he’s 5’7 and looks like he’s from Lindsay, Ontario?

 

I don’t want feel good stories. I want attractive alpha dogs. Picking him over Kiermaier is like choosing Rudy over the hottest guy at school.

 

 

Varsho will do just do fine in center field and like Big C said will likely put up 3-4 WAR. Maybe you can watch a young adult Netflix show to satisfy your thirst.

[june.june]

Cannot cry over spilled milk anymore, what has been done was already done. Atkins overreliance to his analytic spreadsheet with no common baseball sense was the reason of this failed trade. I cannot blame though the people rehashing this after watching Moreno obliterated Kershaw in game 1. Gurriel was no slouch either.

 

Moving forward, the best recourse is to fire Ross Atkins.

 

If they keep Varsho, move him to CF and let him bat 9th, nothing higher than that.

 

But they have to find a way better alternative with consistent power bat who they can plug in behind Vladdy as protection. Ross Atkins has failed to address that and Chapman who they tried early in the season batting clean up was a major disappointment.

 

They also have to find a better catcher, Kirk has some issues more of his weight and he is definitely unreliable offensively. I liked Danny but the guy is made of glass or maybe just unfortunate to get plagued with this freak injuries most likely of how he exposes his wrist when he bats.

 

Bottomline fire Atkins and go from there. Take Martinez and Hudgens with him.

[Olerud363]

The farm doesnÂ’t have anything to be excited about, really. One pitcher and dreams after that.

 

I disagree on this one. I think farms are really had to evaluate right now because of the weirdness with minor league offence.

 

Farm has a bunch of MLB ready players and looks like it can easily provide something similar to the 2015 infusion, which gave the team two regulars in Pillar and Goins/Travis, and a a closer and setup man (Osuna and Sanchez).

 

Things is it is hard to predict exactly how it will work out. In 2015 Pompey, Travis, Goins, Pillar, Castro, Osuna, Sanchez, Norris were all given spots opening day and by the end they didn't all work out but some did. 2024 will be similar. A tonne of MLB ready talent, none really top 10 prospects or anything but there are like 10 guys you could see talking an opening day roster spot.

[connorp]

Varsho will do just do fine in center field and like Big C said will likely put up 3-4 WAR. Maybe you can watch a young adult Netflix show to satisfy your thirst.

 

You could just resign KK and fill the same hole. There’s no net win.

 

Well, save $10m I guess

[jaysblue]

They didn't do Varsho any favors putting in the #4 hole to start the season. I can't imagine that helped his confidence. 22% worse bat in 23 than 22.

 

In CF if healthy and as good on D, and is a LA bat, he is a 3-4 WAR ish player. Add some lumber in LF.

 

Given the control & age delta, upside potential, position - I think it was a big overpay but he can add a lot of value. Thats what we all want to see in '24.

 

That's on the front office. If Atkins and the front office are brilliant and have all the data, they shouldn't have thought of Varsho as a middle-of-the-order bat. Their player evaluation was way off.

 

Like you I believe if he starts the year in CF and is healthy, he can be a 3-4 WAR player. Hope he improves on his offensive numbers. Likely won't be anything special with the bat, but I'll take .250/.320/.450 with 25-30 HR's from him any day if he's playing excellent D in CF. He probably should be hitting 7th in the lineup, not any higher.

 

Regardless Jays need a big masher or two this offseason. If you can't trade for one, go out and sign Bellinger to play LF and JD Martinez to DH. Would also look and see what deals are out there for Vladdy and Springer.

[jaysblue]

You could just resign KK and fill the same hole. There’s no net win.

 

Difference is Varsho at least could hit one out of the park, which is what this team needs more of. He should be good for 20+ HR's, whereas you only likely get single digits from KK.

 

Also need KK to stay healthy in order for him to post a 2+ WAR season.

[connorp]

Difference is Varsho at least could hit one out of the park, which is what this team needs more of. He should be good for 20+ HR's, whereas you only likely get single digits from KK.

 

Also need KK to stay healthy in order for him to post a 2+ WAR season.

 

He’s a lifetime sub .300 OPS guy and has been fairly consistent in that regard. 20+ pop doesn’t make up for it imo. To each their own

[BatFlip]

Difference is Varsho at least could hit one out of the park, which is what this team needs more of. He should be good for 20+ HR's, whereas you only likely get single digits from KK.

 

Also need KK to stay healthy in order for him to post a 2+ WAR season.

 

Yup, plus KK will be 34 going into his next season. No thanks. Perfectly happy with Varsho in CF and redeploying funds to a big bat in LF.