Toronto Blue Jays Roster Discussion (2022)

[L54]

Any truth to the rumor ryu contract was insured?

 

First I’ve heard.

[connorp]

Any truth to the rumor ryu contract was insured?

 

It would go in their pocket but the money still would count on payroll. Doubt it makes them more likely to spend.

[connorp]

Chances are, right now Kirk is stuffing his face. While I trust Shatkins to make the best available deal, I hope he is the one traded.

 

On the other hand, let's not forget Moreno can play multiple positions. He holds immense value to a contending team such as the Jays.

 

Once he goes off C, his value plummets bro lol

[Eat My Shatkins]

Give me Ohtani (extended) or give me death

[Jimcanuck]

Keibert Ruiz looked like a freaking stud. Mashed in AAA last year. Now we looks like a .270 hitter with a slug under .400

 

Laika has a good point. Lots of times catcher prospects won’t hit their peak until after that first six years of control. Steep learning curve in the bigs with emphasis on game calling and defense.

 

I fully admit I have no idea who to trade or really have a concrete opinion. I just hope I like the return.

 

Ruiz' 85 wRC+ in the first half and 102 wRC+ in the second half is indicative of his upward trajectory. He *should* be comfortably above average as a hitter in 2023.

 

Kirk was at 106 wRC+ in 2021.

 

I see Moreno on par with Kirk as a hitter, with a much more well rounded game.

[Jimcanuck]

give me ohtani (extended) or give me death

 

rip

[Jimcanuck]

Once he goes off C, his value plummets bro lol

 

Who are you talking about, dummy. Kirk or Moreno?

 

Are you seriously saying a player with C/2B/3B/OF flex has less value than a C alone?

[Captain_Obvious]

He’s exaggerating the point to state his case. It’s a roster crunch at some point. You’d like to say, we’ll let’s sit on it until we get an 1A offer… but if you’re carrying 3 C with value, while having other clear areas of need, is that the best roster management…

 

The roster crunch should NOT impact the decision making process for the value you're getting back, especially when you have multiple options that are far better than just getting 50% of the value back and not improving the team. You can trade one of the other catchers and get their full value back. You can keep Moreno in AAA as he continues to cover in terms of power production (he won't likely be an immediate upgrade anyways). You can explore different positions (Jansen at 1B, Moreno at 2B or OF, Kirk at .... Jansen at 1B). I do not know how many times this needs to be repeated, but Jansen has been one of the best offensive players in the game since June 2021. You do not dump players like that for pennies on the dollar.

 

https://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=all&stats=bat&lg=all&qual=300&type=8&season=2022&month=1000&season1=2021&ind=0&team=0&rost=0&age=0&filter=&players=0&startdate=2021-06-01&enddate=2022-10-08&sort=18,d

 

He has an above average walk rate, very good strike out rate, barrell's the ball very well, is an average base runner, and is at least an average catcher. The underlying advanced and statcast metrics support Jansen's results. He has no chronic injuries and no reason to believe any of his previous injuries will recur. He is the perfect candidate to snatch early before he starts building data points that make him much more expensive (think Bautista early 2010). If I were another team, I would target Jansen hoping Toronto's FO makes a mistake and trade him at a discount. Then I would extend him for a reasonable contract (5 Yr 40M-60M), and then enjoy having one of the most valuable assets in baseball.

[G-Snarls]

3.7 for 2023

 

Sweet

[Terminator]

Then I would extend him for a reasonable contract (5 Yr 40M-60M), and then enjoy having one of the most valuable assets in baseball.

 

Wow!

[Laika]

The roster crunch should NOT impact the decision making process for the value you're getting back, especially when you have multiple options that are far better than just getting 50% of the value back and not improving the team. You can trade one of the other catchers and get their full value back. You can keep Moreno in AAA as he continues to cover in terms of power production (he won't likely be an immediate upgrade anyways). You can explore different positions (Jansen at 1B, Moreno at 2B or OF, Kirk at .... Jansen at 1B). I do not know how many times this needs to be repeated, but Jansen has been one of the best offensive players in the game since June 2021. You do not dump players like that for pennies on the dollar.

 

https://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=all&stats=bat&lg=all&qual=300&type=8&season=2022&month=1000&season1=2021&ind=0&team=0&rost=0&age=0&filter=&players=0&startdate=2021-06-01&enddate=2022-10-08&sort=18,d

 

He has an above average walk rate, very good strike out rate, barrell's the ball very well, is an average base runner, and is at least an average catcher. The underlying advanced and statcast metrics support Jansen's results. He has no chronic injuries and no reason to believe any of his previous injuries will recur. He is the perfect candidate to snatch early before he starts building data points that make him much more expensive (think Bautista early 2010). If I were another team, I would target Jansen hoping Toronto's FO makes a mistake and trade him at a discount. Then I would extend him for a reasonable contract (5 Yr 40M-60M), and then enjoy having one of the most valuable assets in baseball.

 

Look, I love that you love Danny Jansen. I love him too.

[connorp]

Who are you talking about, dummy. Kirk or Moreno?

 

Are you seriously saying a player with C/2B/3B/OF flex has less value than a C alone?

 

Moreno probably wouldn’t project as a plus bat at 3b or OF for instance, while also not proving plus defense one would assume. Sure there’s value in having a Ben Zobrist that can play C but that doesn’t scream franchise player

 

I’m saying I’d rather trade it for potential big piece in an area of need considering Jays are set at C already

[Stangstag]

I agree that keeping all three would wind up being a waste. I just don’t think Tyler O’Neil is the guy I would target is all.

 

I would also explore Moreno + another prospect for a starter. Moreno + Tiedemann would land you a front line starter with control.

 

I’m down with trading whichever guy brings back the most value to the major league roster. Whether that is Jansen, Kirk or Moreno doesn’t really matter to me. I have no idea which guy the Jays value most either.

[Stangstag]

Do you guys think Jansen or Moreno is the more liquid asset?

 

Jansen isn't worth nearly as much so it should be easier to find a trade partner but with only 2 years of control the market is limited to contenders or wannabes with catching holes.

 

Moreno is worth A LOT but as an MLB ready prospect the potential market is much wider... competitive teams and rebuilding teams alike would want him.

 

It's not obvious which of the two would be easier to trade.

 

Or Kirk for that matter.

 

I really have no idea what Toronto will do. How exciting.

 

Yeah this is where im at too. Idk why there are some people that think trading Jansen is the obvious move.

 

Its like the casuals mindset of “trade the least exciting player”

 

Usually you gotta give more if you want more back.

[Carlos Danger]

Do you guys think Jansen or Moreno is the more liquid asset?

 

Jansen isn't worth nearly as much so it should be easier to find a trade partner but with only 2 years of control the market is limited to contenders or wannabes with catching holes.

 

Moreno is worth A LOT but as an MLB ready prospect the potential market is much wider... competitive teams and rebuilding teams alike would want him.

 

It's not obvious which of the two would be easier to trade.

 

Or Kirk for that matter.

 

I really have no idea what Toronto will do. How exciting.

 

Moreno, if for nothing else positional flexibility and control.

 

There has been talk of Moreno playing various other IF positions. No such talk with regards to Kirk or Jansen.

 

Kirk, teams will be worried about durability IMO. Jansen, still a SSS between injuries etc and no long term control.

 

I think if you are a playoff ready Team and are making a deadline push, Jansen. If you are in the off season and building a sustainable team, Moreno has the most value.

Edited October 28, 2022 by Carlos Danger

[Terminator]

Moreno probably wouldn’t project as a plus bat at 3b or OF for instance, while also not proving plus defense one would assume. Sure there’s value in having a Ben Zobrist that can play C but that doesn’t scream franchise player

 

I’m saying I’d rather trade it for potential big piece in an area of need considering Jays are set at C already

 

I get what Jim is saying but I tend to agree with you. Catcher is higher on the defensive spectrum than 2B, 3B or LF. Part of what makes Moreno such a great prospect is his defense at C. The more time he plays at those other positions, the less value he's likely to provide. The flexibility isn't a bad thing, especially when we have 2 other stud catchers (assuming Jansen's glass body and horrific eyesight holds up) but it's not something I'd really want to see a whole lot of unless he's really good defensively at 3B or 2B.

 

I think some people like to look at Varsho as someone who catches and plays elsewhere but his situation is different. He's elite at CF and pretty pedestrian at C. That's not the case with Moreno.

[Terminator]

Yeah this is where im at too. Idk why there are some people that think trading Jansen is the obvious move.

 

Its like the casuals mindset of “trade the least exciting player”

 

Usually you gotta give more if you want more back.

 

Wow I've been called a lot of things in my life. An absent father, a horrible husband and I've even been called a drunk. Of course none of that is true my ex-wives are just garbage people and they poisoned our kids against me. But nothing stings more than hearing someone call me a "casual" baseball fan. Unreal.

[wamco]

That’s f***in funny.

 

Now I need to hear the terminator backstory.

[Terminator]

 

Danny Jansen coming to the plate in year 4 of his extension against the Yankees in a do or die Game 7

[Jimcanuck]

I get what Jim is saying but I tend to agree with you. Catcher is higher on the defensive spectrum than 2B, 3B or LF. Part of what makes Moreno such a great prospect is his defense at C. The more time he plays at those other positions, the less value he's likely to provide. The flexibility isn't a bad thing, especially when we have 2 other stud catchers (assuming Jansen's glass body and horrific eyesight holds up) but it's not something I'd really want to see a whole lot of unless he's really good defensively at 3B or 2B.

 

I think some people like to look at Varsho as someone who catches and plays elsewhere but his situation is different. He's elite at CF and pretty pedestrian at C. That's not the case with Moreno.

 

The value of a C that can play different positions is the flex to sub in a roster player in lieu of some AAAA shitballer, and the health benefits.

[connorp]

The value of a C that can play different positions is the flex to sub in a roster player in lieu of some AAAA shitballer, and the health benefits.

 

Except if you have 2 other FT C and then you start penciling said person as a more regular 3b/2b/OF

[wamco]

Report- ryu insurance

 

This is something that’s been talked about quite a bit in the past but the details are a little murky.

 

Ryu, of course, inked a four-year, $80 million deal with the Blue Jays back in December of 2019. He had an excellent showing in the pandemic-shortened 2020 season, started off well in 2021 but faded as time went along, and then completely fell off early in 2022 and wound up having season-ending elbow surgery in June. There’s a chance that Ryu comes back late in 2023 but the reasonable bet here is that he’s thrown his last pitch for the Blue Jays.

 

Given Ryu’s injury history (he missed all of 2015 and most of 2016 after undergoing shoulder surgery and was limited to 15 starts in 2018 because of a groin injury), having his contract insured would have been the prudent move for the Blue Jays to make, even if they had to pay a significant premium.

 

But, unfortunately, this whole situation isn’t as simple as ‘the insurance company is going to give the Blue Jays $20 million to compensate for Ryu so that financial commitment is off the books now!’

 

I spoke with a source familiar with sports contracts and insurance and they told me that payouts won’t start until a player has been on the Injured List for two months, so the Blue Jays likely won’t be getting insurance funds for the entirety of the $20 million Ryu is owed next season. Meanwhile, Ben Nicholson-Smith mentioned on Sportsnet recently that the claim can’t be filed until the contract is over, so the Blue Jays wouldn’t recoup any money until after the 2023 season.

 

Also, as far as I know, Ryu’s salary would still be considered in luxury tax calculations, which are based on the average annual value of a contract, and the Blue Jays have indicated in the past that they aren’t going to be going over that threshold.

 

So, all things considered, don’t expect a $20 million spending spree this winter because of Ryu’s insurance money. This will add flexibility, for sure, but it might be more relevant come trade deadline time next summer rather than during the off-season.

[Olerud363]

Jays should just accept all these catchers are f***ing good and make sure the other teams know it. Tell the teams they can't trade the fat guy because fat guys are under-rated, they can't trade the prospect, because he is actually the number 1 overall prospect in baseball

 

They can trade the 5 WAR 27 year old, who got a fluke injury but is a .250 hitter with 30 homer power and is better then J.T. Realmutto and the Jays will consider trading him for a good haul for anyone who wants an allstar catcher for their world series drive.

[Jimcanuck]

Except if you have 2 other FT C and then you start penciling said person as a more regular 3b/2b/OF

 

why would you have 2 other FT C

[Jonn]

 

Danny Jansen coming to the plate in year 4 of his extension against the Yankees in a do or die Game 7

 

I’m willing to make a very expensive bet that Danny Jansen will play longer than Kirk.

[Captain_Obvious]

I’m down with trading whichever guy brings back the most value to the major league roster. Whether that is Jansen, Kirk or Moreno doesn’t really matter to me. I have no idea which guy the Jays value most either.

 

Kirk and Moreno bring back more value for sure, but I am still OK trading Jansen as long as it is not at a discount. If we're trading for a CF from Arizona, I would be considering trades whose main pieces are Kirk and Varsho, Moreno and Carroll, or Jansen and Thomas.

[Jonn]

Jeff McNeil - too good but 2 years control

Verdugo - 2 years control

Winker - 1 year control

Bryan Reynolds - 3 years control, Pitt won't want a C with less control

Ian Happ - 1 year of control

Santander - no trade fit

Mike Yastrzemski - 3 years control but 32

Grisham - 3 years control

Bellinger - no value, one year control, expensive

 

I'm down for grabbing Bellinger on the cheap. At the worst you're getting a guy who can get 20 Homeruns and play great Defense at like 3 different positions.

[Stangstag]

Wow I've been called a lot of things in my life. An absent father, a horrible husband and I've even been called a drunk. Of course none of that is true my ex-wives are just garbage people and they poisoned our kids against me. But nothing stings more than hearing someone call me a "casual" baseball fan. Unreal.

 

Casuals mindset. We all get it time to time. I think we all wanted JS fired after that last game.

 

Just sayin, trading Jansen is not the obvious choice. Could see any of the 3 catchers being traded, and you could make a case for any 1 of them being the best one to trade.

[connorp]

why would you have 2 other FT C

 

That’s the question here Jimbo

[Spanky99]

I'm pretty confident in this FO getting proper value from our Catching strength.