General Blue Jays Discussion Thread (2022)

[Eat My Shatkins]

I noticed the Grichuk/Tapia trade thread hadn't been bumped in a while, so I went and looked up how Grich had been doing lately

 

lol

 

Not so good

 

.680 OPS

79 wRC+

-0.5 fWAR

 

He a right handed and more expensive Tapia

[gruber92]

I noticed the Grichuk/Tapia trade thread hadn't been bumped in a while, so I went and looked up how Grich had been doing lately

 

lol

 

Not so good

 

.680 OPS

79 wRC+

-0.5 fWAR

 

He a right handed and more expensive Tapia

 

Grichuk is the better defender and it's not even close.

[Eat My Shatkins]

Grichuk is the better defender and it's not even close.

 

They both suck, one is way more expensive.

[Jonn]

I noticed the Grichuk/Tapia trade thread hadn't been bumped in a while, so I went and looked up how Grich had been doing lately

 

lol

 

Not so good

 

.680 OPS

79 wRC+

-0.5 fWAR

 

He a right handed and more expensive Tapia

 

The most important part of that trade is we shed Grichuk’s 2023 salary. Honestly they should have just DFA’d Tapia and called it a win.

[gruber92]

They both suck, one is way more expensive.

 

I don't think I would say Grichuk's defense sucks.

[Benito]

This type of stubbornness is going to cost the organization a lot of wins, it already has. Like I've said a thousand times, Shatkins are good in the draft and IFA signings, but horrible in constructing an optimal big league roster.

 

Jays WAR leaders are at 1.8. Who could have taken Zimmer's 70 plate appearances that would have given the team lots more wins? Jays have 3rd best record in the AL while having one of the toughest, if not toughest schedule to date.

 

Zimmer and Tapia are both crap. But they are not moving the needle in overall wins by as much as people exaggerate.

[Eat My Shatkins]

I don't think I would say Grichuk's defense sucks.

 

fWAR takes everything into account does it not?

 

-0.6 vs -0.5

 

Both below replacement level (IE they suck)

[Dagagad]

This type of stubbornness is going to cost the organization a lot of wins, it already has. Like I've said a thousand times, Shatkins are good in the draft and IFA signings, but horrible in constructing an optimal big league roster.

 

I think probably they think there’s a number of at bats they need to see before they decide it’s real or not. They might also just think we are winning so we have rope.

 

It’s an interesting question. I’ve heard that the giants will give a guy a decent amount of at bats over a short period of time and then cut or not. They make very quick decisions and go through a ton of players.

[John_Havok]

This type of stubbornness is going to cost the organization a lot of wins, it already has. Like I've said a thousand times, Shatkins are good in the draft and IFA signings, but horrible in constructing an optimal big league roster.

 

They won 91 games last year and on pace for 90+ this season also.

 

I think “horrible in constructing an optimal big league roster” is a bit of ridiculous hyperbole.

 

Yes, the bench and pen need some improvement. That’s no reason to call their lineup construction horrible. Shake your head.

[gruber92]

They won 91 games last year and on pace for 90+ this season also.

 

I think “horrible in constructing an optimal big league roster” is a bit of ridiculous hyperbole.

 

Yes, the bench and pen need some improvement. That’s no reason to call their lineup construction horrible. Shake your head.

 

With their payroll and talent they drafted, it'd be kind of hard not to win 90 games. The rounding out of the roster is not good.

[John_Havok]

With their payroll and talent they drafted, it'd be kind of hard not to win 90 games. The rounding out of the roster is not good.

 

Sure. But that’s not what you said. You said they’re “horrible at constructing an optimal big league roster”. Had you said something like you just did it wouldn’t have been a ridiculous take. This a forum, not twitter. You don’t need to pretend the sky is falling to get clicks.

[Solaxys]

Matchups coming up:

 

Against Os

Manoah v Bradish

Kikuchi v Lyles

Berrios v Zimmerman

Gausman v Wells

 

Against Yanks

Stripling v Montgomery

Manoah v Taillon

Kikuchi v Cole

 

---

Kikuchi has to step up and go back to the two games in a row where he had lights-out no-hit stuff.

I hope they are working on his release point for that fastball - he keeps changing it very frequently and just can never locate/settle in.

[Big BlueJay]

Matchups coming up:

 

Against Os

Manoah v Bradish

Kikuchi v Lyles

Berrios v Zimmerman

Gausman v Wells

 

Against Yanks

Stripling v Montgomery

Manoah v Taillon

Kikuchi v Cole

 

---

Kikuchi has to step up and go back to the two games in a row where he had lights-out no-hit stuff.

I hope they are working on his release point for that fastball - he keeps changing it very frequently and just can never locate/settle in.

 

I wonder how many Vlad will hit off Cole this time, he just gave up 5 HRs in 3 innings to the Twins including Babe Ruth himself Luis Arraez

[Jimcanuck]

I wonder how many Vlad will hit off Cole this time, he just gave up 5 HRs in 3 innings to the Twins including Babe Ruth himself Luis Arraez

 

Probability is pretty good, 0

[Laika]

With their payroll and talent they drafted, it'd be kind of hard not to win 90 games. The rounding out of the roster is not good.

 

It's literally the best roster construction I have seen during my life, by Toronto.

 

All of the JPR teams were failed structures

 

The 2015 and 2016 and 2017 teams were all way too thin and always two injuries from disaster. Ryan Goins LMFAO.

 

I'm assuming 92 and 93 were well built but I was a baby so don't remember

[Dagagad]

It's literally the best roster construction I have seen during my life, by Toronto.

 

All of the JPR teams were failed structures

 

The 2015 and 2016 and 2017 teams were all way too thin and always two injuries from disaster. Ryan Goins LMFAO.

 

I'm assuming 92 and 93 were well built but I was a baby so don't remember

 

I strongly agree with this. I’m getting to rays level with this front office, where if they make a move I trust them.

[AMS528]

It's literally the best roster construction I have seen during my life, by Toronto.

 

All of the JPR teams were failed structures

 

The 2015 and 2016 and 2017 teams were all way too thin and always two injuries from disaster. Ryan Goins LMFAO.

 

I'm assuming 92 and 93 were well built but I was a baby so don't remember

 

I basically do agree that we have better roster construction, especially when you factor in remaining prospect depth relative to those 2015/2016/2017 teams.

 

But Goins was still somehow better than Zimmer and Tapia. He was worth a scintillating 1 WAR over those three seasons. Zimmer and Tapia have managed -1 WAR over their combined 100 games.

[Brownie19]

I basically do agree that we have better roster construction, especially when you factor in remaining prospect depth relative to those 2015/2016/2017 teams.

 

But Goins was still somehow better than Zimmer and Tapia. He was worth a scintillating 1 WAR over those three seasons. Zimmer and Tapia have managed -1 WAR over their combined 100 games.

 

Goins was also a starter 2 of those 3 years. 2021 Zimmer = 2015 Goins. He just wasn't on the Jays last year.

[Laika]

I basically do agree that we have better roster construction, especially when you factor in remaining prospect depth relative to those 2015/2016/2017 teams.

 

But Goins was still somehow better than Zimmer and Tapia. He was worth a scintillating 1 WAR over those three seasons. Zimmer and Tapia have managed -1 WAR over their combined 100 games.

 

I'm not comparing them directly but the point is that the total depth and roster construction in 2022 is just so much better than the 2015/2016 teams

 

Toronto right now has a couple of MLB players who are annoying and underperforming (Tapia and Zimmer) but that's.... kind of it. There is good position coverage in most ways and MiLB depth is pretty good for most areas. There are even top prospects who can get called up like Groshans and Moreno.

 

The 2015/2016 teams had, I think, more nothing players and worse positional coverage and much worse organizational depth to reach into.

 

Goins, Thole, Colabello, BJ Upton, Junior Lake, Zeek.... I can't even remember all the s*** bags.

[Stangstag]

I'm not comparing them directly but the point is that the total depth and roster construction in 2022 is just so much better than the 2015/2016 teams

 

Toronto right now has a couple of MLB players who are annoying and underperforming (Tapia and Zimmer) but that's.... kind of it. There is good position coverage in most ways and MiLB depth is pretty good for most areas. There are even top prospects who can get called up like Groshans and Moreno.

 

The 2015/2016 teams had, I think, more nothing players and worse positional coverage and much worse organizational depth to reach into.

 

Goins, Thole, Colabello, BJ Upton, Junior Lake, Zeek.... I can't even remember all the s*** bags.

 

Soccer Tees Brito? Josh Pelacios and Jonathan Davis got quite a few starts last year…

[Stangstag]

Breyvic Valera, Gift Ngoepe….

 

This team has had problems with the 25th/26th man for a long long time

[Grant77]

I'm not comparing them directly but the point is that the total depth and roster construction in 2022 is just so much better than the 2015/2016 teams

 

Toronto right now has a couple of MLB players who are annoying and underperforming (Tapia and Zimmer) but that's.... kind of it. There is good position coverage in most ways and MiLB depth is pretty good for most areas. There are even top prospects who can get called up like Groshans and Moreno.

 

The 2015/2016 teams had, I think, more nothing players and worse positional coverage and much worse organizational depth to reach into.

 

Goins, Thole, Colabello, BJ Upton, Junior Lake, Zeek.... I can't even remember all the s*** bags.

 

Ezequiel Carrera would be about a full win upgrade on what we have now. Chris Colabello isn't a positional fit but was a rather good bench piece as well.

[Benito]

Breyvic Valera, Gift Ngoepe….

 

This team has had problems with the 25th/26th man for a long long time

 

I think every team does. If you look at the Dodgers or Yankees roster, you will find similar poor performers. The reality is, your 25th/26th man are role players with the primary purpose of keeping your starters fresh and healthy for the duration of the season. Every front office I think focuses on that aspect. If your role players determine whether your season is make or break, then you've either constructed a poor roster, or you just have too many deficiencies with your starting lineup.

 

I think what gets magnified is that as fans, we follow our teams everyday and it has the illusion of being a bigger issue than in actuality.

[Laika]

Ezequiel Carrera would be about a full win upgrade on what we have now. Chris Colabello isn't a positional fit but was a rather good bench piece as well.

 

Both depend on which season you look at

[Jimcanuck]

Every team ends up playing crap players more than they wanted.

 

Jays went into this season expecting Biggio to be healthy and have more of a role than he has so far, which is the only reason Tapia and Zimmer got the time they did. Now that Biggio is performing to his capability again, those guys can go back to being the role players they are, and probably at least one of them DFA'ed when the Jays bring in an upgrade a little further down the road.

[Dagagad]

I think with Zimmer and tapia there is a process I like as well.

 

Zimmer fits a very specific needed role and if he even hits his career numbers, heÂ’s qualified for that role.

 

Tapia is a guy with underlying stats that indicate he could be more than he is. ItÂ’s always good to have one of those guys on a roster.

[Benito]

I think with Zimmer and tapia there is a process I like as well.

 

Zimmer fits a very specific needed role and if he even hits his career numbers, heÂ’s qualified for that role.

 

Tapia is a guy with underlying stats that indicate he could be more than he is. ItÂ’s always good to have one of those guys on a roster.

 

Agreed. Process vs results needs to be kept in mind. Front office likely saw two players with either neutral or positive performance in recent and historical seasons, who fit roles they envision, with the potential for untapped increase, even if percentage is unlikely. But it's a method to find cheap everyday players. Case in point, Espinal.

[M.E.]

I think every team does. If you look at the Dodgers or Yankees roster, you will find similar poor performers. The reality is, your 25th/26th man are role players with the primary purpose of keeping your starters fresh and healthy for the duration of the season. Every front office I think focuses on that aspect. If your role players determine whether your season is make or break, then you've either constructed a poor roster, or you just have too many deficiencies with your starting lineup.

 

I think what gets magnified is that as fans, we follow our teams everyday and it has the illusion of being a bigger issue than in actuality.

 

I agree with your thought process here. Problem with the Jays is that they play way to much.

[Laika]

Agreed. Process vs results needs to be kept in mind. Front office likely saw two players with either neutral or positive performance in recent and historical seasons, who fit roles they envision, with the potential for untapped increase, even if percentage is unlikely. But it's a method to find cheap everyday players. Case in point, Espinal.

 

Yeah this isn't like giving Derek Fisher playing time.

 

Speaking of Fish, he is hitting .158/.259/.305 in AAA this year after .205/.271/.308 the year prior. woof.

[Benito]

I agree with your thought process here. Problem with the Jays is that they play way to much.

 

I think that's a perception shared by all fanbase. I am sure if we followed other fanbase regularly, there will be that one or two player they believe receive more playing time than they should.

 

I don't like seeing Tapia getting as much playing time either, but Jays have had a tough schedule with sporadic off days. I haven't checked, but that's an impression I have. Supplement that with injuries to Teo and minor injuries to Springer, and I think it's necessitated having Tapia play as often as he has. One thing as fans looking from the outside in, is we are not privy to the day to day grind players go through, both physically and mentally. And I really think the front office is doing everything possible to try and keep Springer healthy for the season. They know he's key to their goal of the playoffs, and advancing deep into the championship series.

 

Zimmer usage I think has been fine. When everyone is healthy, he rarely has started and mostly used for pinch situations and defensive substitutions.