Jays 2021/22 General Off-Season Discussion

[G-Snarls]

While I was being purposely ridiculous, that roster would only come in at $162M.

 

 

And if it's true that the Jays can get up to $180M this year, you'd still have some money to fill in the rotation and pen.

 

With that lineup you prob don't need elite starting pitching

[Stangstag]

While I was being purposely ridiculous, that roster would only come in at $162M.

 

 

And if it's true that the Jays can get up to $180M this year, you'd still have some money to fill in the rotation and pen.

 

I’d be scared to go into 2022 with that bullpen. We need at least 2 solid/elite arms.

 

The difference in WAR between our bullpen and the other playoff teams was huge

[John_Havok]

I’d be scared to go into 2022 with that bullpen. We need at least 2 solid/elite arms.

 

The difference in WAR between our bullpen and the other playoff teams was huge

 

Yeah, wouldn't be getting legit front end starter and another great pen piece for under 20 million though

[THANOS]

Yeah, wouldn't be getting legit front end starter and another great pen piece for under 20 million though

 

Legit front end, no, but maybe someone with potential to become one like Jon Gray (he's project for 15M AAV or so) then you toss another cheap 1Y at Kirby Yates and hope he's good for this season?

 

Could get 2 potentially decent pieces in SP & BP for 18-20M

[John_Havok]

Legit front end, no, but maybe someone with potential to become one like Jon Gray (he's project for 15M AAV or so) then you toss another cheap 1Y at Kirby Yates and hope he's good for this season?

 

Could get 2 potentially decent pieces in SP & BP for 18-20M

 

Sure. Imean, we're just pie in the skying at this point because i highly doubt Correa comes anywhere near the Jays.

 

A Ramirez trade is far more likely since the dialogue between the Jays and Indians already progresses to a certain point, and there's additional factors now (Moreno being one of them) that make a guy like Kirk more likely to be dealt without remorse (Boxcar aside).

 

Take Correa's 33 million off there and you can absolutely grab a legit top end starter, a top end pen arm and Yates.

[jerb]

[G-Snarls]

Sure. Imean, we're just pie in the skying at this point because i highly doubt Correa comes anywhere near the Jays.

 

A Ramirez trade is far more likely since the dialogue between the Jays and Indians already progresses to a certain point, and there's additional factors now (Moreno being one of them) that make a guy like Kirk more likely to be dealt without remorse (Boxcar aside).

 

Take Correa's 33 million off there and you can absolutely grab a legit top end starter, a top end pen arm and Yates.

 

Yeah

 

I don't want one 30M+ infielder preventing other signings

[John_Havok]

 

Always love the way people phrase things. it's quite telling. As were his facial expressions.

 

"Toronto's great but....." " I love Toronto but......"

 

He's not coming back.

[max silver]

Always love the way people phrase things. it's quite telling. As were his facial expressions.

 

"Toronto's great but....." " I love Toronto but......"

 

He's not coming back.

 

I don't necessarily get the same type of feel from his comments, to me it simply sounds like the man is fully exploring his available options.

[Jimcanuck]

I don't necessarily get the same type of feel from his comments, to me it simply sounds like the man is fully exploring his available options.

 

Yes he doesn't want to give any suggestion he favours one location over another.

[Spanky99]

There is no chance any team is giving Verlander 2/80. That would just be stupid.

 

I believe he meant Mad-Max.

[Dick_Pole]

Whelp

 

When it's not locked behind The Star's paywall, you can tell it's bad.

[Dick_Pole]

Always love the way people phrase things. it's quite telling. As were his facial expressions.

 

"Toronto's great but....." " I love Toronto but......"

 

He's not coming back.

 

Yeah even Kawhi gave more lip service to the Toronto crowd than this dude lol

[John_Havok]

I don't necessarily get the same type of feel from his comments, to me it simply sounds like the man is fully exploring his available options.

 

Watch his facial expressions at the same time. He’s all straight faced and serious when he talks about Toronto…and starts smiling as soon as he moves on. These are unconscious tells that he doesn’t want to return to Toronto. The only way he comes back is if the Jays overpay so much that he can’t say no, and there’s no way Atkins makes that mistake.

[max silver]

Watch his facial expressions at the same time. He’s all straight faced and serious when he talks about Toronto…and starts smiling as soon as he moves on. These are unconscious tells that he doesn’t want to return to Toronto. The only way he comes back is if the Jays overpay so much that he can’t say no, and there’s no way Atkins makes that mistake.

 

I choose to pay more attention to past history than to attempt to analyze small perceived tells. The man re-signed immediately with the team last off-season when he could have went anywhere that he wanted. The Jays have every bit as much of a chance to sign the guy as anybody else, as he obviously works very well with the coaching staff given how he was able to resurrect his career and win a Cy Young. If he moves on then so be it, there are plenty of available starters available in trade and in free agency, but I see no reason to make grand assumptions that there is no chance the man returns based on a Tim and Sid interview.

[John_Havok]

I choose to pay more attention to past history than to attempt to analyze small perceived tells. The man re-signed immediately with the team last off-season when he could have went anywhere that he wanted. The Jays have every bit as much of a chance to sign the guy as anybody else, as he obviously works very well with the coaching staff given how he was able to resurrect his career and win a Cy Young. If he moves on then so be it, there are plenty of available starters available in trade and in free agency, but I see no reason to make grand assumptions that there is no chance the man returns based on a Tim and Sid interview.

 

Watching someone’s Facial expressions when talking aren’t assumptions. There’s fairly deep science behind it. A mouth can lie, faces generally don’t unless the person is a sociopath.

[Eat My Shatkins]

Imagine signing Seager or Correa to play SS, moving Bo to 2B and trading for Ramirez to play 3B?

 

lol

 

Most valuable infield in baseball. That'd be bonkers.

[max silver]

Watching someone’s Facial expressions when talking aren’t assumptions. There’s fairly deep science behind it. A mouth can lie, faces generally don’t unless the person is a sociopath.

 

We can just agree to disagree here. The Jays historically have to overpay for free agents, especially when shopping in the premium aisle of free agency. This has been the case with every major free agent signing dating back several decades. Ray re-signing or not likely won't be any different, whether he's smiling with his eyes during a television interview or not. If the team wants to pivot to a different top pitching target in free agency they are still going to need to overpay relative to everybody else in that scenario as well. Hopefully with the team being in a competitive phase the degree of overpay will become less but I suspect it will still continue.

[Deadpool]

He's still going to Cooperstown in a Tigers hat

 

Not if Brandy Halladay has anything to say about it!

[Ehjays]

Not if Brandy Halladay has anything to say about it!

 

I still cant believe she did that.

[Carlos Danger]

I’d be scared to go into 2022 with that bullpen. We need at least 2 solid/elite arms.

 

The difference in WAR between our bullpen and the other playoff teams was huge

 

I think this is the most pertinent post.

 

We had a Cy Young winner and a Gold Glove 2b that offensively outperformed Seager (LAD) Correa, Story etc and we still did not make the playoffs. Even if you just replace Semien and Ray with equals (very hard to do) what else has changed from a team that didn't make the playoffs.

[Brownie19]

I think this is the most pertinent post.

 

We had a Cy Young winner and a Gold Glove 2b that offensively outperformed Seager (LAD) Correa, Story etc and we still did not make the playoffs. Even if you just replace Semien and Ray with equals (very hard to do) what else has changed from a team that didn't make the playoffs.

 

Um....internal improvement? We're young team with several core pieces who should all maintain or improve. Healthy Biggio, full season of Manoah, full seasons from Jansen/Kirk, arrival of Moreno and it's likely we haven't seen the peak for Vlad, Bo, Teo, Gurriel, Biggio, Romano, Pearson, Manoah, etc.

[thatoneguy]

I think this is the most pertinent post.

 

We had a Cy Young winner and a Gold Glove 2b that offensively outperformed Seager (LAD) Correa, Story etc and we still did not make the playoffs. Even if you just replace Semien and Ray with equals (very hard to do) what else has changed from a team that didn't make the playoffs.

 

Addition by subtraction removing s*** ballers from the bullpen.

[Carlos Danger]

Addition by subtraction removing s*** ballers from the bullpen.

 

I agree... That is my point... The OP was talking about the pen.. To me that is the key... That is where we need to focus in addition to replacing our losses to FA (If that occurs, which I suspect it will on at least one one of the two if not both).

[InsideThePark]

Full season from Berrios, full season from Springer, and extra couple weeks of Manoah. Full seasons from Cimber, and Richards. Biggio not being hurt or playing hurt literally the entire year. Not using Roark, Milone, and Zeuch to start games for an entire month. Having Jansen, Kirk or Moreno as the starting catcher instead of McGuire for 2 months. Internal development from our young players. Players being comfortable just from playing at home rather than Dunedin and Buffalo. A W/L that more accurately reflects our run differential rather than being 7 or 8 wins worse than our Pythag record.

 

Yeah we're screwed. At best we can pay 60 million dollars per year to maybe replace ray and Semien and hope 91 wins is good this time.

[Spanky99]

I agree... That is my point... The OP was talking about the pen.. To me that is the key... That is where we need to focus in addition to replacing our losses to FA (If that occurs, which I suspect it will on at least one one of the two if not both).

 

Atkins has already said as much in one of his presser's, it'll be addressed.

[Spanky99]

I want Verlander, but I'm skeptical that 2/80 or 3/135 would be a wise move for any team.

 

You were thinking Scherzer here, right?

[Carlos Danger]

Um....internal improvement? We're young team with several core pieces who should all maintain or improve. Healthy Biggio, full season of Manoah, full seasons from Jansen/Kirk, arrival of Moreno and it's likely we haven't seen the peak for Vlad, Bo, Teo, Gurriel, Biggio, Romano, Pearson, Manoah, etc.

 

I have been a HUGEEE Biggio fan since he was drafted.. However, he does not contribute to run prevention for us, his D is not Gold Glove, and he was sucking at the plate prior to injuries. As far as Moreno, you can't expect anything from a rookie, who has no AAA time. Especially to the level of replacing Semien.

 

Even Vlad jr struggled first time up. Adel, Kelenic, Larnach, Duran, on and on didn't move the needle when they were called up at first and certainly did not provide replacement value for someone like Semien, not to mention Gold Glove D= Run prevention.

 

On the pitching side, the list is long of sophomore slumps and guys like Pearson not making the impact we thought they would when they were in the minors.

 

Regardless, our offense was great last season and will probably still be sufficient. We need to do better at run prevention. Bullpen, defense and be able to cover the loss of Ray.. I am also worried about Ryu, health and age...

[wilko]

Not if Brandy Halladay has anything to say about it!

 

What a ****!

[John_Havok]

I still cant believe she did that.

 

No s***. What a ****.