Vlad Jr. to Indy Ball

[max silver]

Definitely think the org shares some of the blame for his suckyness. Doesn’t a smart org fix his swing? Look what Baltimore did for O’Hearn and Hicks last year…

 

It definitely feels like the organization could stand to bring in someone from outside the organization for some fresh ideas as too many of the key contributors seem to be massively moving backwards at the plate.

[Brownie19]

Exactely, the Dodgers with Muncy, Turner and Taylor - just to name a few (add in JD Martinez as well because I think he worked with some of the same hitting instructors before joining the dodgers). Many examples...

 

Add Justin Turner to the list (albeit that was years ago). Do you even know whether it was the Dodgers or a private instructor worked with those hitters to change their swings? A lot of major changes like that happen in the offseason and it often isn't the club who's responsible for it.

 

Do the Jays get credit for fixing Varsho? Turning Teo into a silver slugger? Developing Bo? Making Espinal an all-star? The answer is - we don't really know who did what, so it's hard to blame or assign praise.

[Captain_Obvious]

Exactely, the Dodgers with Muncy, Turner and Taylor - just to name a few (add in JD Martinez as well because I think he worked with some of the same hitting instructors before joining the dodgers). Many examples...

 

Vlad is not coachable. His ego and lack of awareness are unmatched. He thinks he is in the same league as Soto and Acuna and does not realize that he is a replacement level player.

 

But he is what he is. The real problem is the beta front office and management team that give in to players and do not hold them accountable. Fat players are rewarded with major playing time. Clowns are allowed to fool around while they and the team are underperforming. Coaches and managers shrug their shoulders when players do not listen. Declining players are given more at bats and at critical spots in the line up.

 

Vlad should be benched. Bo should move from short and bat lower in the line up. Springer should bat 8th or 9th. We need a manager who can actually make hard decisions to help the team.

[Omar]

Shapiro talks a little about Vladdy and his progress (or lack thereof):

 

[Brownie19]

Shapiro talks a little about Vladdy and his progress (or lack thereof):

 

 

Seems about right. I like this statement that "players are accountable for their own success, we're doing everything we can to support him".

 

100%

Edited April 27, 2024 by Brownie19

[hanton]

Add Justin Turner to the list (albeit that was years ago). Do you even know whether it was the Dodgers or a private instructor worked with those hitters to change their swings? A lot of major changes like that happen in the offseason and it often isn't the club who's responsible for it.

 

Turner is on my list, the Dodgers brought in a private hitting instructor/consultant and eventaiully made him the Dodgers hitting instructor in 2019, Robert Van Scoyoc. Some players (like JD Martinez) were getting that instruction at his private facility before then. There's alot to unpack on this.

 

Do the Jays get credit for fixing Varsho? Turning Teo into a silver slugger? Developing Bo? Making Espinal an all-star? The answer is - we don't really know who did what, so it's hard to blame or assign praise.

 

In the Jays case you're correct we don't really know but has any insider ever done a peice about our developemnt system? We have fancy facilities, but what about the coahes, hitting and pitching philosphies...etc?

[Jonn]

Shapiro talks a little about Vladdy and his progress (or lack thereof):

 

 

Seeing Bob McCowan like that makes me sad. He doesn’t even sound like the same person.

[Brownie19]

Turner is on my list, the Dodgers brought in a private hitting instructor/consultant and eventaiully made him the Dodgers hitting instructor in 2019, Robert Van Scoyoc. Some players (like JD Martinez) were getting that instruction at his private facility before then. There's alot to unpack on this.

 

 

 

In the Jays case you're correct we don't really know but has any insider ever done a peice about our developemnt system? We have fancy facilities, but what about the coahes, hitting and pitching philosphies...etc?

 

Major swing changes like Turner, Muncy, etc. made are done in the offseason. The Jays can't require or force anyone to do s*** in the offseason. They make the facilities available and offer the coaching, but it's on the players to want to make the changes. Players are accountable for their own success.

 

Some acknowledge the issues and get in the lab to fix it all offseason. Some go eat tacos.

[hanton]

Major swing changes like Turner, Muncy, etc. made are done in the offseason. The Jays can't require or force anyone to do s*** in the offseason. They make the facilities available and offer the coaching, but it's on the players to want to make the changes. Players are accountable for their own success.

 

Some acknowledge the issues and get in the lab to fix it all offseason. Some go eat tacos.

 

The Dodgers are a club correct? they hired outside help didn't they? I think I answered your question

[hanton]

Vlad is not coachable. His ego and lack of awareness are unmatched. He thinks he is in the same league as Soto and Acuna and does not realize that he is a replacement level player.

 

But he is what he is. The real problem is the beta front office and management team that give in to players and do not hold them accountable. Fat players are rewarded with major playing time. Clowns are allowed to fool around while they and the team are underperforming. Coaches and managers shrug their shoulders when players do not listen. Declining players are given more at bats and at critical spots in the line up.

 

Vlad should be benched. Bo should move from short and bat lower in the line up. Springer should bat 8th or 9th. We need a manager who can actually make hard decisions to help the team.

 

time will tell, maybe should have recognized that a long time ago and moved him

[keggy]

Seems about right. I like this statement that "players are accountable for their own success, we're doing everything we can to support him".

 

100%

 

Dude, why would you just believe these words when you have 5+ years of behaviour that refutes this. Nobody at any level has held Guerrero accountable from the first day he stepped foot on the team.

[Brownie19]

Dude, why would you just believe these words when you have 5+ years of behaviour that refutes this. Nobody at any level has held Guerrero accountable from the first day he stepped foot on the team.

 

Read it again. These are adults, not children. Let's not act like putting adults in a timeout is often successful. There are other ways to try and hold him accountable without taking him out of the lineup or putting him 7th to feel shame.

 

What he's saying is "There's only so much any organization can do. The players have to want to improve and make changes. The desire to be great only comes from within".

 

Nobody was trading Vlad after 2021. 2022 showed the cracks, but you'd appreciate they wanted a chance to work with him and try to help him. 2023 was s***, but now his value is at an all-time low - trading him now is questionable. 2024 - the shine has fallen off, but you're still hopeful he finally figures it out and either leads the team, or rebuilds his value.

 

Is there a window in 2022 when the team realizes that Vlad is a lose cause, but still has enough trade value to get a good haul for him? Yes - there probably was. Not sure how long that window was open, but we were a playoff team that year, so dumping him for prospects would have been a tough pill to swallow. Trading him for an equivalent MLB talent player so you can continue pushing to win is always difficult.

 

Here come the armchair GM's again...

[L54]

Can’t make Vlad do anything he doesn’t want to. All you can do is continue treating him like he’s Manny Ramirez and pay him 20M+ a year to pound fastballs down the dick into the ground and hit him second.

[BCZ]

He still hasn't fixed his topping the ball ********, so he must be a f***ing moron.

[Brownie19]

The Dodgers are a club correct? they hired outside help didn't they? I think I answered your question

 

I don't get your point. Turner fixed his swing in the offseason when he was a FA. He signed with the Dodgers on February 5, 2014. Highly doubtful the Dodgers did much to retool his swing. Max Muncy was a minor league free agency who changed his swing in the offseason. Dodgers signed him on April 28, 2017, so again, he wasn't working with the Dodgers when he retooled his swing.

 

Dodgers hired a smart guy to come work with them - that's great. Jays and every team also have smart technical hitting coaches. Why couldn't that guy fix Bellinger? Lux? Outman? No coach has a 100% success rate. It's on the players a lot more than anyone else.

[Brownie19]

Can’t make Vlad do anything he doesn’t want to. All you can do is continue treating him like he’s Manny Ramirez and pay him 20M+ a year to pound fastballs down the dick into the ground and hit him second.

 

What else do you want the team to do? Just release him and give up on the talent? They went to arbitration with him this year. Did you want them to trade him for a box of peanuts like the A's did with Carlos Pena? Put him in the corner with a dunce cap on?

 

He's too talented to just give up on when you'd get nothing for him right now. You continue to support him in hopes he finally figures it out. I'm not sure there's a better path, but you tell me.

 

I've hated Vlad for several years now. f***ING HATE him. Biggest waste of talent in Blue Jays history...but even I can see the options are unfortunately limited.

[HomeRunHomer]

I think he's fixable but it will probably take a team other the Jays to do it. I don't know what goes on behind the scenes but it feels like they are babying him way too much, too afraid to upset him or something. Apparently moving him from the 2 spot would be too upsetting.

 

Just looking at his metrics the first thing that jumps out at me is that his pull percentage is way down. 22.7% this year compared to 27.9% when he was good in 2021. His line drive percentage is also down. These things pretty much align with the eye test so it's pretty baffling that day after day they send him out in the 2 hole without any apparent adjustments in approach or in his swing. If the player is accountable for making his own changes then maybe the team you should send some kind or message that what he's doing isn't working. Sending him out there day after day doing the same s*** is clearly not working.

[L54]

I think he's fixable but it will probably take a team other the Jays to do it. I don't know what goes on behind the scenes but it feels like they are babying him way too much, too afraid to upset him or something. Apparently moving him from the 2 spot would be too upsetting.

 

Just looking at his metrics the first thing that jumps out at me is that his pull percentage is way down. 22.7% this year compared to 27.9% when he was good in 2021. His line drive percentage is also down. These things pretty much align with the eye test so it's pretty baffling that day after day they send him out in the 2 hole without any apparent adjustments in approach or in his swing. If the player is accountable for making his own changes then maybe the team you should send some kind or message that what he's doing isn't working. Sending him out there day after day doing the same s*** is clearly not working.

 

Feel identical. He will figure it out eventually, most likely in another organization. He has zero accountability in Toronto.

[Olerud363]

I think he's fixable but it will probably take a team other the Jays to do it.

 

Special Message from commissioner Rob Manfred:

 

HomeRunHomer is an astute poster. We have no doubt that when Vladimir Guerrero Jr. is moved to the Boston Red Sox he will be the player Blue Jays fans dreamed on. From 2026 to 2035 Guerrero Jr. and Devers will form a combination even better than Ramirez and Ortiz.

 

As commissioner my job is to keep the game healthy and for that we need happy fans, so I certainly hope Toronto fans will not be poor sports when Guerrero wins the triple crown with the rival Red Sox. Smile as Vlad's drives go over the monster, laugh as his 80 hit tool finally shows up, do a dance when Vlad Sr. cheers Vlad Jr's .350 average and batting title as the son beats the Father.

 

Remember the young 19 year old you dreamed on and enjoy it when he finally reaches his potential year after year. Just because it is not with your team is no reason to frown.

 

Baseball. A game of legends, a game of generations, a game of joy, a game for the fans.

 

This has been a message from commissioner Rob Manfred.

[hanton]

I don't get your point. Turner fixed his swing in the offseason when he was a FA. He signed with the Dodgers on February 5, 2014. Highly doubtful the Dodgers did much to retool his swing. Max Muncy was a minor league free agency who changed his swing in the offseason. Dodgers signed him on April 28, 2017, so again, he wasn't working with the Dodgers when he retooled his swing.

 

Dodgers hired a smart guy to come work with them - that's great. Jays and every team also have smart technical hitting coaches. Why couldn't that guy fix Bellinger? Lux? Outman? No coach has a 100% success rate. It's on the players a lot more than anyone else.

 

I have no point, you asked if they got outside help and I told you they did and now you're saying every team has "smart technical hitting coaches".

 

ok then...

[Stangstag]

Seeing Bob McCowan like that makes me sad. He doesn’t even sound like the same person.

 

I had to double check to make sure that was actually him

[Brownie19]

I had to double check to make sure that was actually him

 

Double stroke. Impressive he's still sharing his opinions professionally

[hanton]

Sad to see the bobcat like that...

[gruber92]

What else do you want the team to do? Just release him and give up on the talent? They went to arbitration with him this year. Did you want them to trade him for a box of peanuts like the A's did with Carlos Pena? Put him in the corner with a dunce cap on?

 

He's too talented to just give up on when you'd get nothing for him right now. You continue to support him in hopes he finally figures it out. I'm not sure there's a better path, but you tell me.

 

I've hated Vlad for several years now. f***ING HATE him. Biggest waste of talent in Blue Jays history...but even I can see the options are unfortunately limited.

 

What else do you want the team to do?

 

The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different / better results when a large enough sample has already surpassed. If Vladdy is that valuable a piece to give up on, don't you think management should pivot from Guermillo and his / their hitting philosophies? The rest of the offence has also regressed on top of it. Dropping Vladdy down to the five spot for example wouldn't show an act of disrespect, as to continue batting him second is insane. The problem is that front office eats way too much kale for a decision like that to happen when it actually should. The decision making is so bizarre that it makes you wonder if there is an underlining reason to all of it.

[Omar]

I had to double check to make sure that was actually him

 

Bob has made remarkable progress over the past year. Considering that less than a year ago he couldn't walk or speak. At his age recovery will a be a slow incremental process. Wish him well.

[HomeRunHomer]

[Masterbather]

Maybe Vlad actually needs to put more weight back on. Somehow the fatness might be the source of his strength.

[G-Snarls]

OMFG the power in those 2021 swings!!!

[Stangstag]

OMFG the power in those 2021 swings!!!

 

Its gotta be the lingering knee issues that ruined his stance/base and sapped most of his power. Only gonna get worse with age too

[hanton]

Its gotta be the lingering knee issues that ruined his stance/base and sapped most of his power. Only gonna get worse with age too

 

doubt it, he can really motor for a guy his size doesn't seem to bother him