Fire Charlie Montoyo - The thread worked guys!

[wamco]

Well we had a good run. Now the bannings have been listed so we are back to the spanky and boxcar show. Boxcar at least knows what he is talking about.

[Olerud363]

Well we had a good run. Now the bannings have been listed so we are back to the spanky and boxcar show. Boxcar at least knows what he is talking about.

 

?? Boxcar is here I think.

 

Grant and Olerud show today. I am probably losing to be honest, too much ranting, and didn't check the link I posted about the 2009 mutiny, it was actually mostly pro-Gaston.

[Olerud363]

Well we had a good run. Now the bannings have been listed so we are back to the spanky and boxcar show. Boxcar at least knows what he is talking about.

 

Typo in your post 'lifted' you mean. If Spanky is back and needs to fight Boxcar for some reason I'll take a step back. Or were Spanky and Boxcar on the same side and fighting others. I can't keep track. Just trying to fight Grant and getting my ass kicked. How could I post a pro-Gaston article without checking carefully!!!!!

[wamco]

Lifted

[Krylian]

Exactly. Olerud was an 8 WAR player that year. Other than Josh Donaldson who else has done that in Blue Jays history?? Maybe I'm forgetting someone.

Supposedly it was to get Molitor with no DH, but Molitor played 3rd the next 2 days, so it really came down to Sprague or Olerud....

 

And of course you have people like Bob McCown claiming Cito is one of the worst people he ever met.. OK Bob Cat may not be that reliable. Wilner?? Same thing.

 

And it's just the ********. Certain people weren't "respected" in Cito's mind, and others were. If you are Devon White or Joe Carter, and get the best lineup spots every single day?? Of course you love Cito. If you are an equally or more talented hitter that is platooned and hitting down in the lineup becaue you don't have Cito's "respect" then you might think differently.

 

Bautista is the only other one I can think of as a batter. Lots in the 7+ (Delgado, Moseby, Barfield...)

 

Clemens was 11.9 in '97.

[glory]

Let's get this thread back to its normal premise.

 

Tonight's lineup has a bottom 3 of Joseph, Fisher, and Davis (yes, Caleb hitting in front of Fisher). Panik is at 3B and Shaw at 1B due to Rowdy's injury. But man, with a day off tomorrow, you couldn't keep Gurriel and Jansen in the lineup?

[Stangstag]

Let's get this thread back to its normal premise.

 

Tonight's lineup has a bottom 3 of Joseph, Fisher, and Davis (yes, Caleb hitting in front of Fisher). Panik is at 3B and Shaw at 1B due to Rowdy's injury. But man, with a day off tomorrow, you couldn't keep Gurriel and Jansen in the lineup?

 

Yup that’s a big yikes

[wamco]

Yes. Need the offense

[wilko]

This game's going to be a wash I think.

[Krylian]

When you have the Yankees down on the tarp you should be trying to put your foot on their neck, not offering them a hand to lift them up.

[Olerud363]

Let's get this thread back to its normal premise.

 

Tonight's lineup has a bottom 3 of Joseph, Fisher, and Davis (yes, Caleb hitting in front of Fisher). Panik is at 3B and Shaw at 1B due to Rowdy's injury. But man, with a day off tomorrow, you couldn't keep Gurriel and Jansen in the lineup?

 

Not sure what is up with Gurriel. He must be nursing something to. Hottest hitter on the team and just had a day off.

[The Iceman]

Because our manager has everything planned out a week ahead and God forgive that he has to make a change to that...

[BlueRocky]

Blair confirmed on radio yesterday, all the controversial lineup changes, rest days, yanking SP early & pitch count limits, and bullpen availabilities are dictated by front office people (most likely something to do with their high performance dept) and Charlie is basically the scapegoat.

 

Although front office offers “suggestions” rather than orders, he was basically hired to implement those suggestions, so basically shouldn’t take 110% of the blame for all the shenanigans happening. Blair (Wagner, Wilner, and Barker for that matter) are sick and tired of hearing fans chirp at Montoyo when he has nothing to do with it.

 

While I don’t buy it completely, I can see where this is coming from. Sources close to Montoyo and the team have also come out to say some of these decisions were also not decided by Montoyo. Of course he has something to do with it, as he’s the one that makes the final decision, but I really wonder if front office is dabbling a little too much. Maybe just let the man do his job.

 

Don’t shoot the messenger, I’m just stating what I heard. Up to you guys to decide & form your own opinions.

Edited September 9, 2020 by BlueRocky

[wilko]

Blair confirmed on radio yesterday, all the controversial lineup changes, rest days, yanking SP early, and bullpen availabilities are dictated by front office people (most likely something to do with their high performance dept) and Charlie basically is just the scape goat. Although what front office offers are “suggestions” rather than orders, he was basically hired to implement those suggestions so basically can’t take 100% of the blame for all the shenanigans happening. He’s sick and tired of hearing fans chirp at Montoyo when he has nothing to do with if.

 

While I don’t buy it completely, I can see where this is coming from. Sources close to Montoyo and the team have also come out to say some of these decisions were also not decided by Montoyo. Of course he has something to do with it, as he’s the one that makes the final decision, but I really wonder if front office is dabbling a little too much and just let the man do his job.

 

Don’t shoot the messenger, I’m just stating what I heard. Up to you guys to decide & form your own opinions.

 

Here's your coach:

 

[Jimcanuck]

I'd be surprised if the FO is calling down to order the bunt sign.

[Jimcanuck]

Here's your coach:

 

 

Shatkins Manager of the Year 2020.

[Boxcar]

And what's with you?? One minute you are all like 'freedom of speach, I'm being repressed', then you're like 'please spare us from something I don't want to see'

 

Either you believe in freedom of speech or you don't, if you do just let people talk about what they want within reason, and skip the stuff that annoys you.

 

It's a PSA for your own sanity, dummy. I'm trying to do people a favour. If you want to bang your head against a wall arguing with Grant's delusions, feel free.

[Grant77]

It's a PSA for your own sanity, dummy. I'm trying to do people a favour. If you want to bang your head against a wall arguing with Grant's delusions, feel free.

 

The whole point of saying anything about Cito is to get a 2000 word response from Olerud. Don't ruin it for everyone.

[Jonn]

I understand this team has injuries but he put a very non competitive lineup together tonight. You just can’t sit Gurriel after losing Hernandez and Tellez in the same week. Absolute zero excuse with an off-day coming up.

 

Biggio and Gurriel should be hitting 1 and 2 every night until Bo is back. Hopefully that’s Friday but who knows.

[glory]

Blair confirmed on radio yesterday, all the controversial lineup changes, rest days, yanking SP early & pitch count limits, and bullpen availabilities are dictated by front office people (most likely something to do with their high performance dept) and Charlie is basically the scapegoat.

 

Although front office offers “suggestions” rather than orders, he was basically hired to implement those suggestions, so basically shouldn’t take 110% of the blame for all the shenanigans happening. Blair (Wagner, Wilner, and Barker for that matter) are sick and tired of hearing fans chirp at Montoyo when he has nothing to do with it.

 

While I don’t buy it completely, I can see where this is coming from. Sources close to Montoyo and the team have also come out to say some of these decisions were also not decided by Montoyo. Of course he has something to do with it, as he’s the one that makes the final decision, but I really wonder if front office is dabbling a little too much. Maybe just let the man do his job.

 

Don’t shoot the messenger, I’m just stating what I heard. Up to you guys to decide & form your own opinions.

 

The bunting (especially with 2 strikes) and batting your best hitters 8th can't possibly be the front office, but I can buy the rest of it being Buntoyo following orders. Starters being pulled after 70-80 pitches or 2 times through the order is definitely orders from above Charlie. Maybe resting certain guys on certain days (like Gurriel tonight) is the same. The Yankees have been accused of hiring Boone as simply a mindless puppet who will follow orders (as opposed to Girardi), and he has the same tendencies of pulling pitchers early, giving rest days for no reason, etc.

 

It's why I'm not expecting the Jays to move on from Montoyo even if they collapse the rest of the way. He'll jump when they tell him to jump. That's what most front offices want now.

[Terminator]

"Here is what I know about Gaston—every former player who played for him in Toronto in the '90s raves about him. They can’t stop talking about what a great manager he was."

 

People are too harsh on these old guys.

 

Cito, Joe Carter, etc. (might as well lump them all together) are franchise legends. I don't give a s*** that current perceptions have revised their value/contributions downward.

 

Cito managed back to back WS champs for a record setting attendance franchise. Joe Carter was pretty damn good for us until he turned 35 and he also has one of the greatest homers in baseball history. These guys were studs in their prime.

[Olerud363]

It's a PSA for your own sanity, dummy. I'm trying to do people a favour. If you want to bang your head against a wall arguing with Grant's delusions, feel free.

 

Point taken. Probably not the wisest thing to keep arguing with Grant about things that were argued about literally two decades ago (well 11-12 years ago which would bring us back 2 decades) on the old board.

[Olerud363]

People are too harsh on these old guys.

 

Cito, Joe Carter, etc. (might as well lump them all together) are franchise legends. I don't give a s*** that current perceptions have revised their value/contributions downward.

 

Cito managed back to back WS champs for a record setting attendance franchise. Joe Carter was pretty damn good for us until he turned 35 and he also has one of the greatest homers in baseball history. These guys were studs in their prime.

 

Yes 92 and 93 were fun. 94-97 though... information age starting, message boards beginning, NASDAQ flying, baseball offense at all time high (with some help of course), analytics gaining steam based on two early Bill James rules, 1. Get players under 27, 2. Get the boys on base.

 

Cito Gaston - Get rid of these kids and on base cloggers, get me some 30 year olds with a sub .300 on base percentage. Old Joe Carter with a .275 on base percentage will be our leader, get him some comrades.

 

Gord Ash - Yes sir, right away sir

[Olerud363]

Yes 92 and 93 were fun. 94-97 though... information age starting, message boards beginning, NASDAQ flying, baseball offense at all time high (with some help of course), analytics gaining steam based on two early Bill James rules, 1. Get players under 27, 2. Get the boys on base.

 

Cito Gaston - Get rid of these kids and on base cloggers, get me some 30 year olds with a sub .300 on base percentage. Old Joe Carter with a .275 on base percentage will be our leader, get him some comrades.

 

Gord Ash - Yes sir, right away sir

 

Bringing it back to Charlie. Charlie seems to do a pretty good job allocating playing time to the young guys. And it seems to me the approach at the plate has been very good this year. And I think Charlie gets some credit for that as it's his job to help hire and direct the coaching staff.

 

Real test will be a 160 game season. Can he develop a competitive team with young players and run the pitching staff with 2020s out of the box strategies over 160 games? Or is the current situation just a fluke 40 game stretch?

 

Can he gain 3 or 4 wins with development and usage patterns to compensate for the 0.25 wins he loses with the bunting?

[saskjayfan]

The bunting (especially with 2 strikes) and batting your best hitters 8th can't possibly be the front office, but I can buy the rest of it being Buntoyo following orders. Starters being pulled after 70-80 pitches or 2 times through the order is definitely orders from above Charlie. Maybe resting certain guys on certain days (like Gurriel tonight) is the same. The Yankees have been accused of hiring Boone as simply a mindless puppet who will follow orders (as opposed to Girardi), and he has the same tendencies of pulling pitchers early, giving rest days for no reason, etc.

 

It's why I'm not expecting the Jays to move on from Montoyo even if they collapse the rest of the way. He'll jump when they tell him to jump. That's what most front offices want now.

 

The bunting is probably all on Montoya. Siddal basically said on Twitter that batting Teoscar 8th wasn't Montoya's call and they are fairly close.

[Krylian]

People are too harsh on these old guys.

 

Cito, Joe Carter, etc. (might as well lump them all together) are franchise legends. I don't give a s*** that current perceptions have revised their value/contributions downward.

 

Cito managed back to back WS champs for a record setting attendance franchise. Joe Carter was pretty damn good for us until he turned 35 and he also has one of the greatest homers in baseball history. These guys were studs in their prime.

 

Isn't that what this entire generation is about? Let's dig into the past and see who we can discredit for dropping a racial slur 12 years ago or let's deface a monument cause someone had a slave 200 years ago, which was as common as WiFi back then.

 

Comparing the past to current standards is all the rage. How many HoF .300 hitters would suuuuuuck nowadays?

[Dick_Pole]

People are too harsh on these old guys.

 

Cito, Joe Carter, etc. (might as well lump them all together) are franchise legends. I don't give a s*** that current perceptions have revised their value/contributions downward.

 

Cito managed back to back WS champs for a record setting attendance franchise. Joe Carter was pretty damn good for us until he turned 35 and he also has one of the greatest homers in baseball history. These guys were studs in their prime.

 

100% agreed. It's not like Carter was an outlier, even today. Plenty of examples across sports of legends hanging on too long and their teams s***ing bricks for a while. Pujols, Kobe Bryant, Sedin twins. Only NFL teams dump their guys quickly. Otherwise you have to be Chris Davis level of bad or Tulowitzki level of injured to lose your spot.

[DigitalRock]

lol at people trying to defend Montardo by deflection towards the FO.

[Stangstag]

lol at people trying to defend Montardo by deflection towards the FO.

 

I’d say probably like half the stuff people s*** on him for is from the front office and high performance department. The other half is him being dumn.

[Dick_Pole]

lol at people trying to defend Montardo by deflection towards the FO.

 

Or an attempt to fairly direct criticism. The FO might have their reasons for pulling starters early or resting players. But if they are the ones behind it, Montoyo shouldn't be the scapegoat. By some miracle this patchwork BP of journeymen, Jays non-prospects and rule 5 castoffs has been one of the best. Someone should take credit for that and it's probably a mix between the FO and manager.