Vladdy/Bo Extension or Trade Discussion

[Laika]

I wonder if things are bad enough that it's a "trade him for whatever you can get" situation in the offseason. His body language seems really bad. They could, maybe, hold and hope he returns to form. But if he's mentally checked out and going to sulk around next season too, they probably don't really want him around.

 

It's his platform year. He had every reason to be a baby this year and sulk for a trade, but he can't do that next year.

 

I'd just hold him if the return isn't there.

[Laika]

Isn't Bo kinda in the same mold as Javier Baez?

 

Hit tools aren't even comparable

 

career contract rate of 80% vs 66.9%

 

And Bo actually swings more often (gets thrown way more strikes of course)

 

There is a universe where Bo Bichette ages okay and in that universe he probably slides to 2B or 3B, plays okay defense there, and hits like Nick Castellanos. Maybe with a bit more AVG even.

[Spanky99]

Hah... you guys are high.

[Laika]

Hah... you guys are high.

 

why?

[Spanky99]

why?

 

I don't think his value has dropped anywhere as bad as you two are suggesting is all, if it were that low he'll be kept to hopefully build value and moved at the deadline if they stink again.

[AMS528]

It's his platform year. He had every reason to be a baby this year and sulk for a trade, but he can't do that next year.

 

I'd just hold him if the return isn't there.

 

I think this may be accurate. I don't think he was ever going to get like the Lindor contract but I think with another good season he'd have been looking at 200 milion and I think that's what was reported a couple of times.

 

He's going to be looking at a lot less than that without a really good season next year. One bad season can be an anomaly, two bad seasons is not, it's a patter and now execs are more skeptical. If he's with the Jays next season he's working his ass off to gun for a new contract, if he still sucks it's cause he's very likely broken.

 

Risk there is we're not going to get almost anything as a return, but if the issue is we're not getting much in the offseason anyways that's a little more tolerable as a risk to take.

[Jimcanuck]

I don't think his value has dropped anywhere as bad as you two are suggesting is all, if it were that low he'll be kept to hopefully build value and moved at the deadline if they stink again.

 

If he retains value, and I agree with you, Jays are better off not taking the risk of a slow start in 2025.

 

Long ago I advocated many many times on here to trade JD in the offseason after he finished the previous season strongly. Saying the same thing now, trade Bo in the offseason. The risk of poor performance or injury in the 1st half of 2025 is too high.

[jaysblue]

If he retains value, and I agree with you, Jays are better off not taking the risk of a slow start in 2025.

 

Long ago I advocated many many times on here to trade JD in the offseason after he finished the previous season strongly. Saying the same thing now, trade Bo in the offseason. The risk of poor performance or injury in the 1st half of 2025 is too high.

 

If Bo comes back September 1st and goes on a tear over the final month, definitely helps restore some of his trade value in the offseason. If he continues to struggles or just looks average, you can still try to shop him in the offseason, though best thing would be to hope he's extra motivated in a contract year and you get big seasons from both him and Vladdy, which at least would help the Jays have another run at a WC spot in 2025.

[Omar]

I don't think his value has dropped anywhere as bad as you two are suggesting is all, if it were that low he'll be kept to hopefully build value and moved at the deadline if they stink again.

 

Yes, this. Teams will pay for his ceiling. Doesn't matter how 2024 goes at this point.

 

If the Jays don't move him in the off-season can you imagine being in a wild card position next season and the Jays trade him at the deadline and then fall out of contention. More bad press for this org.

[Terminator]

Yes, this. Teams will pay for his ceiling. Doesn't matter how 2024 goes at this point.

 

If the Jays don't move him in the off-season can you imagine being in a wild card position next season and the Jays trade him at the deadline and then fall out of contention. More bad press for this org.

 

They don't have to trade Bo. His value is in the toilet and if the team wants to contend, replacing his projections on just an 11.2M tax hit for 2025 is going to be tough to do. They could keep him and see where they are at at the trade deadline. If they are out of it, hopefully he's balling out in his walk year and they get more for him from some desperate contender than they would have in the offseason anyway. If they are in it, just take the surplus value he's providing in 2025 and the extra pick that comes with it.

 

Definitely should explore trading him though. I think the dream scenario would be to sign Kim or Adames and trade Bo for something useful. That could really jumpstart our 2025 offseason if they could get a starting caliber player for Bo. Another option would be to sign Kim or Adames to play 3B and just let things play out with Bo and then slide Kim or Adames over to SS after the year.

[Terminator]

Ernie Clement is starting to get interesting and I wonder how he factors into the 2025 plans.

 

Last year he figured out how to basically never strike out and everyone took notice. But what's kind of flying under the radar is that he also unlocked some power in AAA. It didn't show itself in his short big league audition but his .146 ISO this year shows that he's probably got a 40 grade power tool instead of a 30. That can play on the left side of the infield with a 55ish hit tool.

 

Add in that his defense at 3B might be elite with some above average baserunning and he looks like he could be a starting-caliber 3B, even if his game is a little unconventional.

 

I also think he could play SS and the small sample size metrics are good. But the team hasn't really played him there even when given the opportunity until recently. If he could handle SS then he'd be even better.

[Laika]

Ernie Clement is starting to get interesting and I wonder how he factors into the 2025 plans.

 

Last year he figured out how to basically never strike out and everyone took notice. But what's kind of flying under the radar is that he also unlocked some power in AAA. It didn't show itself in his short big league audition but his .146 ISO this year shows that he's probably got a 40 grade power tool instead of a 30. That can play on the left side of the infield with a 55ish hit tool.

 

Add in that his defense at 3B might be elite with some above average baserunning and he looks like he could be a starting-caliber 3B, even if his game is a little unconventional.

 

I also think he could play SS and the small sample size metrics are good. But the team hasn't really played him there even when given the opportunity until recently. If he could handle SS then he'd be even better.

 

He sort of gets the yips on throws and that might make the trad coaching staff hesitant to label him a starting infielder

 

but yes he is a total stud

 

almost better at baseball than, for example, ryan mcmahon or maybe colt keith

[Orgfiller]

Ernie Clement is starting to get interesting and I wonder how he factors into the 2025 plans.

 

Last year he figured out how to basically never strike out and everyone took notice. But what's kind of flying under the radar is that he also unlocked some power in AAA. It didn't show itself in his short big league audition but his .146 ISO this year shows that he's probably got a 40 grade power tool instead of a 30. That can play on the left side of the infield with a 55ish hit tool.

 

Add in that his defense at 3B might be elite with some above average baserunning and he looks like he could be a starting-caliber 3B, even if his game is a little unconventional.

 

I also think he could play SS and the small sample size metrics are good. But the team hasn't really played him there even when given the opportunity until recently. If he could handle SS then he'd be even better.

 

He sort of gets the yips on throws and that might make the trad coaching staff hesitant to label him a starting infielder

 

but yes he is a total stud

 

almost better at baseball than, for example, ryan mcmahon or maybe colt keith

 

The Jays signed IKF to a bargain 2/15 price, got an elite 2 WAR half season out of him, flipped him at his highest value for a stud in Charles McAdoo who RAKES in AA at a good age for the level, and then replaced IKF internally with literally another IKF at the league minimum. Absolute masterclass from Ross.

[jaysblue]

Ernie Clement is starting to get interesting and I wonder how he factors into the 2025 plans.

 

Last year he figured out how to basically never strike out and everyone took notice. But what's kind of flying under the radar is that he also unlocked some power in AAA. It didn't show itself in his short big league audition but his .146 ISO this year shows that he's probably got a 40 grade power tool instead of a 30. That can play on the left side of the infield with a 55ish hit tool.

 

Add in that his defense at 3B might be elite with some above average baserunning and he looks like he could be a starting-caliber 3B, even if his game is a little unconventional.

 

I also think he could play SS and the small sample size metrics are good. But the team hasn't really played him there even when given the opportunity until recently. If he could handle SS then he'd be even better.

 

If the Jays need to save some payroll space this offseason in order to make upgrades in other areas, 3B is a place they can save some money if they roll with Clement.

 

If you can squeeze out 15 HR's along with a 2-3 WAR season from Clement, would take that from third base in 2025.

[Jimcanuck]

If Bo comes back September 1st and goes on a tear over the final month, definitely helps restore some of his trade value in the offseason. If he continues to struggles or just looks average, you can still try to shop him in the offseason, though best thing would be to hope he's extra motivated in a contract year and you get big seasons from both him and Vladdy, which at least would help the Jays have another run at a WC spot in 2025.

 

So basically the JD approach. I don't agree.

 

It is most likely, same as it was with JD, that Bo loses more value the longer the Jays retain him.

[jaysblue]

So basically the JD approach. I don't agree.

 

It is most likely, same as it was with JD, that Bo loses more value the longer the Jays retain him.

 

It's a weak SS market this offseason. Outside of Adames and Kim, there aren't really any solid options in the next tier below them. Maybe DeJong and Rosario, but that's it!

 

Jays might be able to capitalize on the weak SS market and if they could, definitely open to trading him during the offseason.

 

Atlanta would be a great fit for Bo.

[connorp]

I don't think his value has dropped anywhere as bad as you two are suggesting is all, if it were that low he'll be kept to hopefully build value and moved at the deadline if they stink again.

 

It depends how bad it is behind the scenes. Like if he’s demanding a trade, which is possible and they’re keeping it under wraps, toxic locker room they could need to factor in

[Omar]

Let's wait and see if Clement can be a league average bat who can play defense before we christen him with the starting infielder label.

[BTS]

It depends how bad it is behind the scenes. Like if he’s demanding a trade, which is possible and they’re keeping it under wraps, toxic locker room they could need to factor in

 

A lot of the nerds on this forum don't think about the human element

[John_Havok]

A lot of the nerds on this forum don't think about the human element

 

Nah, it's just that toxicity is cured really fast when a guy actually plays well amd the team is winning

[jaysblue]

Let's wait and see if Clement can be a league average bat who can play defense before we christen him with the starting infielder label.

 

I agree.

 

I'm okay with him as the starting 3B next season if the Jays spend money elsewhere on the roster. Need to add at least two big bats to the lineup hopefully in LF and at DH.

 

At worst, Clement and his glove provide 2 WAR over a full season.

[jaysblue]

Nah, it's just that toxicity is cured really fast when a guy actually plays well amd the team is winning

 

But this team isn't winning lol.

[gruber92]

Clement is a great bench piece that can start twice a week. The reason his numbers are slightly above average is because he doesn't play every day.

[John_Havok]

But this team isn't winning lol.

 

Right now sure. He's not playing right now. When he comes back, that will be the test.

 

I agree he looked mentally checked out a ton of the time. He said he would welcome a trade (allegedly) a quote from "a friend".

 

He's been hittiing like dog s*** and has been chronically injured in the same place over the past season, so it's hard to say if the attitude stems from that or something else.

 

Yes, they should absolutely explore trading him in the offseason. No, they shouldn't just trade him for the sake of trading him. If the return isn't there, you take your chances that the sulky child will use his impending free agency as enough motivation to stop being a baby, and start playing like he can. Then, if they're winning at that point, the toxicity will likely be minimal.

[jaysblue]

Clement is a great bench piece that can start twice a week. The reason his numbers are slightly above average is because he doesn't play every day.

 

Ideally, he would be perfect as a bench piece. Given the areas on the roster that need upgrades and improvements however, if the Jays need to save money in some places to spend elsewhere, rolling with Clement at 3B isn't the end of the world. Defensively alone he should be worth 2 WAR.

 

But yeah if the Blue Jays have another offseason where the main big additions are players like Justin Turner and KK, then yeah I would be annoyed!

[jaysblue]

Right now sure. He's not playing right now. When he comes back, that will be the test.

 

I agree he looked mentally checked out a ton of the time. He said he would welcome a trade (allegedly) a quote from "a friend".

 

He's been hittiing like dog s*** and has been chronically injured in the same place over the past season, so it's hard to say if the attitude stems from that or something else.

 

Yes, they should absolutely explore trading him in the offseason. No, they shouldn't just trade him for the sake of trading him. If the return isn't there, you take your chances that the sulky child will use his impending free agency as enough motivation to stop being a baby, and start playing like he can. Then, if they're winning at that point, the toxicity will likely be minimal.

 

Yup.

 

If you read some of my posts, I pretty much said the same thing regarding Bo.

[gruber92]

Ideally, he would be perfect as a bench piece. Given the areas on the roster that need upgrades and improvements however, if the Jays need to save money in some places to spend elsewhere, rolling with Clement at 3B isn't the end of the world. Defensively alone he should be worth 2 WAR.

 

But yeah if the Blue Jays have another offseason where the main big additions are players like Justin Turner and KK, then yeah I would be annoyed!

 

His arm strength is a huge concern in an every day role at third or short.

[Stangstag]

Feels like the best they can do would be similar to the Teoscar package. Aaron Swanson and Erick Macko.

 

Just f***in keep him then, Bo is worth more to the 2025 Jays by being on the team

[Brownie19]

So basically the JD approach. I don't agree.

 

It is most likely, same as it was with JD, that Bo loses more value the longer the Jays retain him.

 

What is this based on (outside of the JD example)?

[Laika]

What is this based on (outside of the JD example)?

 

Bo's obvious decline in athleticism