GDT: 1/3 Red Sox vs Jays (7:07pm et)

[wilko]

It was sound logic

It made sense on paper

It has blown up in their faces spectacularly

 

Now somebody needs to pay.

[Stangstag]

There's probably some truth in all of that (some truly bizarre decisions), although there were some obvious defensive concerns with the LGJ/Springer/Teo OF defensively, especially as they aged. Several fans were quite sick of Teo's effort and ability defensively and moving LGJ and Teo before they became FA's should also have been viewed as a way to sustainable success. I still think if you told fans they were going to go from 2nd offensively and 15th defensively to 5th-7th offensively and Top 5-10 defensively that most would have been on board with that. Despite several unexpected down years, they did almost produce that last year....but the actual runs lagged way behind the wRC+ a ton, which meant we needed that unsustainable pitching health to succeed in 2023. Again, I suspect they felt that with some predicable improvements from core players, they'd be in much better shape. It didn't materialize AT ALL and now we're all miserable and Atkins will be fired.

 

He made his grave, he can lay in it

[Stangstag]

It's not like they made a monumental shift to defense from 2022 to 2023.

 

 

They traded Teo and Gurriel. That's it

 

The problem is Springer went from 130 wRC+ to 100 wRC+, Kirk the same, Jansen 140 wRC+ to 115, Vlad from 135 to 115, and Varsho came over after 107 wRC with the Dbacks to 85 last year with the Jays.

 

That's a crap ton of bats that fell off and the FO expected (or hoped for) some of them to bounce back this year and they didn't. In fact most of them got worse and even Bo joined them.

 

Yes and they sat on their hands in the offseason after losing Belt and Chapman. Content with the same group of underperformers and HOPING that they would be better without making any changes to the coaching staff and 0 upgrades to the rest of the questionable spots in the lineup.

 

You guys really gotta acknowledge that they NEEDED to add better bats than IKF, KK, and Turner.

 

Else we will all continue to have these circular arguments

[Eat My Shatkins]

Yes and they sat on their hands in the offseason after losing Belt and Chapman. Content with the same group of underperformers and HOPING that they would be better without making any changes to the coaching staff and 0 upgrades to the rest of the questionable spots in the lineup.

 

You guys really gotta acknowledge that they NEEDED to add better bats than IKF, KK, and Turner.

 

Else we will all continue to have these circular arguments

 

 

They reportedly had discussions with every single free agent bat out there.

 

You can't MAKE free agents sign with your team.

 

And like I've said, none of them would have been enough to save this tire fire anyways.

 

Belt lol

 

Nobody signed Belt, and Turner had better projections anyways. look where that got us.

[Stangstag]

They reportedly had discussions with every single free agent bat out there.

 

You can't MAKE free agents sign with your team.

 

And like I've said, none of them would have been enough to save this tire fire anyways.

 

Belt lol

 

Nobody signed Belt, and Turner had better projections anyways. look where that got us.

 

Can’t fix the hole in the wall, so i’ll just leave it instead of trying to patch it/cover it up a bit.

 

Yerdum

[Stangstag]

And I mentioned losing Belt (and not replacing the production) because he was one of the biggest power sources and best hitters for us last season.

 

Stop being obtuse

[max silver]

Yes and they sat on their hands in the offseason after losing Belt and Chapman. Content with the same group of underperformers and HOPING that they would be better without making any changes to the coaching staff and 0 upgrades to the rest of the questionable spots in the lineup.

 

You guys really gotta acknowledge that they NEEDED to add better bats than IKF, KK, and Turner.

 

Else we will all continue to have these circular arguments

 

It's not remotely true that there were no changes made to the coaching staff as there were a lot of changes made particularly on the offensive side. Mattingly was elevated to offensive coordinator, Hudgens was demoted, and Hague was promoted from AAA to the major league coaching staff. Further additions were Hale as bench associate manager and Febles as infield coach/third base coach. The results on the offensive side of the ledger haven't been there but it's not like they just ran back the same staff from the year prior.

[Stangstag]

It's not remotely true that there were no changes made to the coaching staff as there were a lot of changes made particularly on the offensive side. Mattingly was elevated to offensive coordinator, Hudgens was demoted, and Hague was promoted from AAA to the major league coaching staff. Further additions were Hale as bench associate manager and Febles as infield coach/third base coach. The results on the offensive side of the ledger haven't been there but it's not like they just ran back the same staff from the year prior.

 

Blow it alllll up

[Eat My Shatkins]

Can’t fix the hole in the wall, so i’ll just leave it instead of trying to patch it/cover it up a bit.

 

Yerdum

 

Again, they reportedly talked with them all.

[Spanky99]

Yes and they sat on their hands in the offseason after losing Belt and Chapman. Content with the same group of underperformers and HOPING that they would be better without making any changes to the coaching staff and 0 upgrades to the rest of the questionable spots in the lineup.

 

You guys really gotta acknowledge that they NEEDED to add better bats than IKF, KK, and Turner.

 

Else we will all continue to have these circular arguments

 

You also NEED to know they tried. Seriously. Who cares about this carrousel now, anyhow? They're f***ed barring a festivus miracle.

[Stangstag]

You also NEED to know they tried. Seriously. Who cares about this carrousel now, anyhow? They're f***ed barring a festivus miracle.

 

Insert Josh Donaldson quote

[Spanky99]

They reportedly had discussions with every single free agent bat out there.

 

You can't MAKE free agents sign with your team.

 

And like I've said, none of them would have been enough to save this tire fire anyways.

 

Belt lol

 

Nobody signed Belt, and Turner had better projections anyways. look where that got us.

 

Turner's on a heater again, check his splits, not much power but he's hitting. A team will want his bat. May was horrawful.

[Eat My Shatkins]

Turner's on a heater again, check his splits, not much power but he's hitting. A team will want his bat.

 

Absolutely. I hope so.

[Spanky99]

Insert Josh Donaldson quote

 

Lame... yer dumn!

[Terminator]

You guys really gotta acknowledge that they NEEDED to add better bats than IKF, KK, and Turner.

 

Else we will all continue to have these circular arguments

 

The nauseating circular arguments go both ways though.

 

-IKF is outhitting and outplaying Matt Chapman (the supposed #1 FA 3B) at a fraction of the cost.

-Justin Turner is so uninspiring I can't claim that he was a good signing but he's our 3rd best hitter and out-hitting Soler, Garver and other free agents that got multi-year deals. He's hardly the reason we suck ass.

-KK has just flat out sucked. I'll give you that one.

 

But for whatever bats you think would have magically fixed this clusterf*** of a team, they honestly wouldn't be much of an improvement over the Buffalo Boys. Nor would they make up for Vlad, Bo and Springer putting up about 1 WAR when they should be north of 6, which is the main reason this team sucks.

 

So wipe the slate clean and add Matt Chapman, Teoscar, JD Martinez and whatever other bats you want and this team probably is about 2-3 wins better then we are right now and that's with a more expensive team that would have more longterm commitments. Barely a dent. Get the core performing up to standards and we are probably 6 wins better and right in the thick of things.

[jaysblue]

The nauseating circular arguments go both ways though.

 

-IKF is outhitting and outplaying Matt Chapman (the supposed #1 FA 3B) at a fraction of the cost.

-Justin Turner is so uninspiring I can't claim that he was a good signing but he's our 3rd best hitter and out-hitting Soler, Garver and other free agents that got multi-year deals. He's hardly the reason we suck ass.

-KK has just flat out sucked. I'll give you that one.

 

But for whatever bats you think would have magically fixed this clusterf*** of a team, they honestly wouldn't be much of an improvement over the Buffalo Boys. Nor would they make up for Vlad, Bo and Springer putting up about 1 WAR when they should be north of 6, which is the main reason this team sucks.

 

So wipe the slate clean and add Matt Chapman, Teoscar, JD Martinez and whatever other bats you want and this team probably is about 2-3 wins better then we are right now and that's with a more expensive team that would have more longterm commitments. Barely a dent. Get the core performing up to standards and we are probably 6 wins better and right in the thick of things.

 

Just give it up man.

 

IKF has looked like a great signing so far, so will give Atkins credit for that. But more needed to be done to upgrade the lineup.

[Terminator]

It's not remotely true that there were no changes made to the coaching staff as there were a lot of changes made particularly on the offensive side. Mattingly was elevated to offensive coordinator, Hudgens was demoted, and Hague was promoted from AAA to the major league coaching staff. Further additions were Hale as bench associate manager and Febles as infield coach/third base coach. The results on the offensive side of the ledger haven't been there but it's not like they just ran back the same staff from the year prior.

 

It's hard to grade/judge coaches but dumping Hudgens and promoting Mattingly seems like shuffling the dinosaurs around a bit. I think it's fair to criticize them for not changing things up enough here. Especially now that we see it's not working and they still just keep plugging along with Mattingly as the hitting boss.

[jaysblue]

Yes and they sat on their hands in the offseason after losing Belt and Chapman. Content with the same group of underperformers and HOPING that they would be better without making any changes to the coaching staff and 0 upgrades to the rest of the questionable spots in the lineup.

 

You guys really gotta acknowledge that they NEEDED to add better bats than IKF, KK, and Turner.

 

Else we will all continue to have these circular arguments

 

Agreed!

[Spanky99]

The nauseating circular arguments go both ways though.

 

-IKF is outhitting and outplaying Matt Chapman (the supposed #1 FA 3B) at a fraction of the cost.

-Justin Turner is so uninspiring I can't claim that he was a good signing but he's our 3rd best hitter and out-hitting Soler, Garver and other free agents that got multi-year deals. He's hardly the reason we suck ass.

-KK has just flat out sucked. I'll give you that one.

 

But for whatever bats you think would have magically fixed this clusterf*** of a team, they honestly wouldn't be much of an improvement over the Buffalo Boys. Nor would they make up for Vlad, Bo and Springer putting up about 1 WAR when they should be north of 6, which is the main reason this team sucks.

 

So wipe the slate clean and add Matt Chapman, Teoscar, JD Martinez and whatever other bats you want and this team probably is about 2-3 wins better then we are right now and that's with a more expensive team that would have more longterm commitments. Barely a dent. Get the core performing up to standards and we are probably 6 wins better and right in the thick of things.

 

Common sense, who'd a thunk it? The team was always rolling on positive regression from our regs and they slipped with a little Bo on the side. I don't feel it was awful, considering the players available. Once Toronto missed on the big boys, it would never had gotten better with out our said regression.

[max silver]

It's hard to grade/judge coaches but dumping Hudgens and promoting Mattingly seems like shuffling the dinosaurs around a bit. I think it's fair to criticize them for not changing things up enough here. Especially now that we see it's not working and they still just keep plugging along with Mattingly as the hitting boss.

 

I was willing to keep an open mind and wait and see what unfolded before making judgment, but it's hard to view Mattingly's time as offensive coordinator as anything but an abject failure. There is definitely something very wrong with the offensive preparation for this team given how this is a second consecutive year of seeing so many players post career worst seasons at the same time and it's high time for a progressive outside voice to be brought aboard. Guys like Vlad, Bo, Kirk and even Springer shouldn't be producing as poor of results at the plate as we've seen the last few seasons and it's of utmost importance that the right people be brought into the organization to get the best out of these players if the team is to even have a puncher's chance at any type of competing next season.

[max silver]

Common sense, who'd a thunk it? The team was always rolling on positive regression from our regs and they slipped with a little Bo on the side. I don't feel it was awful, considering the players available. Once Toronto missed on the big boys, it would never had gotten better with out our said regression.

 

With a few of the mid tier bats the offense could probably be more in the vein of average vs one of the league's worst but that's probably about the best that would have happened barring a Soto or Ohtani type of acquisition. The pitching has been so poor as a whole that nothing other than a 1993 Blue Jays stacked line up would have given this team much of a shot for competition.

[Spanky99]

Just give it up man.

 

IKF has looked like a great signing so far, so will give Atkins credit for that. But more needed to be done to upgrade the lineup.

 

Slow down, Sil... it makes sense. Just wait the posts out and regurgitate later, bro.

[Spanky99]

With a few of the mid tier bats the offense could probably be more in the vein of average vs one of the league's worst but that's probably about the best that would have happened barring a Soto or Ohtani type of acquisition. The pitching has been so poor as a whole that nothing other than a 1993 Blue Jays stacked line up would have given this team much of a shot for competition.

 

Nor a soul worried about our pen, rationally. s*** happens. Destined to s*** the bed inevitably.

[max silver]

Nor a soul worried about our pen, rationally. s*** happens. Destined to s*** the bed inevitably.

 

This season was the first time in the Shapkins era I wasn't really worried about the state of the pen headed into the season as for once it felt like there was a solid core of relievers at the major league level and depth working it's way up through the minor leagues. It's pretty crazy how the pen turned from a likely strength to complete s***. I for one wouldn't have guessed that all of Romano, Swanson and Mayza would have suffered from injury and/or dramatic loss of stuff while seeing their results completely go in the shitter seemingly overnight. There are a few bright spots such as Pearson slowly beginning to realize his potential and Garcia turning into a late inning weapon but aside from that it's been massively disappointing.

[Nexii]

With a few of the mid tier bats the offense could probably be more in the vein of average vs one of the league's worst but that's probably about the best that would have happened barring a Soto or Ohtani type of acquisition. The pitching has been so poor as a whole that nothing other than a 1993 Blue Jays stacked line up would have given this team much of a shot for competition.

 

Realistically we needed about 4 more WAR from the pitching and 4 more WAR from the lineup to be competitive at this point.

[Spanky99]

This season was the first time in the Shapkins era I wasn't really worried about the state of the pen headed into the season as for once it felt like there was a solid core of relievers at the major league level and depth working it's way up through the minor leagues. It's pretty crazy how the pen turned from a likely strength to complete s***. I for one wouldn't have guessed that all of Romano, Swanson and Mayza would have suffered from injury and/or dramatic loss of stuff while seeing their results completely go in the shitter seemingly overnight. There are a few bright spots such as Pearson slowly beginning to realize his potential and Garcia turning into a late inning weapon but aside from that it's been massively disappointing.

 

It's legit blown my mind as I posted last week or so, it's nuts.

[Omar]

This season was the first time in the Shapkins era I wasn't really worried about the state of the pen headed into the season as for once it felt like there was a solid core of relievers at the major league level and depth working it's way up through the minor leagues. It's pretty crazy how the pen turned from a likely strength to complete s***. I for one wouldn't have guessed that all of Romano, Swanson and Mayza would have suffered from injury and/or dramatic loss of stuff while seeing their results completely go in the shitter seemingly overnight. There are a few bright spots such as Pearson slowly beginning to realize his potential and Garcia turning into a late inning weapon but aside from that it's been massively disappointing.

 

You know times are tough when I'm longing to see Adam Cimber again. Hell, give me Trent Thornton.

[Terminator]

Just give it up man.

 

IKF has looked like a great signing so far, so will give Atkins credit for that. But more needed to be done to upgrade the lineup.

 

I don't understand your desperation to just blanket disagree with me every time I post something. We actually agree on almost everything!

 

-We agree on IKF (you think he was a "great signing")

-We agree on KK (we both think he is ass, you called it from the get go though so you deserve credit here)

-We both think the player development under Atkins has been ass (especially the pitching)

-the hitting coaches suck

-the onfield performance of the core has been horrid

-that Atkins has been bad and should be sent packing

 

So is it just Justin Turner? Ok well let's ignore the costs and if he'd even sign here to begin with, but replace him with Teoscar. Do you think his 1.6 WAR has this team in contention? That's basically the only part we disagree on.

 

So in sum, we agree on nearly everything but because I don't think Teoscar would have been some magic wand and you do, I need to "just give it up man"? Why? We agree on damn near everything!

[Nexii]

This season was the first time in the Shapkins era I wasn't really worried about the state of the pen headed into the season as for once it felt like there was a solid core of relievers at the major league level and depth working it's way up through the minor leagues. It's pretty crazy how the pen turned from a likely strength to complete s***. I for one wouldn't have guessed that all of Romano, Swanson and Mayza would have suffered from injury and/or dramatic loss of stuff while seeing their results completely go in the shitter seemingly overnight. There are a few bright spots such as Pearson slowly beginning to realize his potential and Garcia turning into a late inning weapon but aside from that it's been massively disappointing.

 

Our pitching was incredibly lucky/clutch last year (2nd just behind CIN, practically tied for first). That being said, the offense was incredibly unlucky/unclutch (29th). So there was hope on the aggregate

 

Perhaps its just that the Jays are an aging team. A lot of the team is on the wrong side of 30

[max silver]

You know times are tough when I'm longing to see Adam Cimber again. Hell, give me Trent Thornton.

 

Thornton legitimately looks like a good reliever now but Cimber appears to be cooked.