The Ship is Sinking

[Spanky99]

Well you come off as a mentally unstable alcoholic on welfare who lives in his mom's basement, because you aren't able to live independently.

 

Oh, and you probably smell like a homeless person.

 

I'd feel sorry for you, but you're unbelievably toxic to people who didn't do s*** to you. You deserve all the s*** you get in life.

 

Wow!

[Spanky99]

Benedict Arnold fits you like a glove, mate. You can’t help yourself. We can’t choose our e-friends, we have to accept them.

 

All was fine im trying to talk about some deal I made and along comes “Red Alert Spanky”.. “that’s a violation!! That’s a violation!! Quick everyone look over here!! ….violation!!!.. maybe the teacher will give ME an apple after this. That would be swell for a chick like me. Or one of those star stickers”

 

That’s your kind of goals, my man.

It wasn’t the first time you were a little bitch and it won’t be the last. 20 years strong, amigo.

 

Quitter. Also, quit calling me a chick, ****.

[wilko]

Well you come off as a mentally unstable alcoholic on welfare who lives in his mom's basement, because you aren't able to live independently.

 

Oh, and you probably smell like a homeless person.

 

I'd feel sorry for you, but you're unbelievably toxic to people who didn't do s*** to you. You deserve all the s*** you get in life.

 

Coming from a person who threatens to leave the board on multiple occasions, only to crawl back and s*** talk people. You might want to take a look in the mirror before slinging those insults.

[max silver]

But wait, wasn't Atkins a genius locking up Green to that contract? That was such a great deal!

 

The Green deal still has plenty of time to work out for the team so I don't know why you feel the need to dunk on that signing at this point.

[Terminator]

The Green deal still has plenty of time to work out for the team so I don't know why you feel the need to dunk on that signing at this point.

 

They threw in the towel in April, of course they will judge a signing after 6 innings

[max silver]

They threw in the towel in April, of course they will judge a signing after 6 innings

 

Posting online about the Blue Jays right now is about as enjoyable as attending a funeral for your favorite childhood pet. It seems that most of the fanbase has forgotten that a baseball season is 6 months long, and a team is never quite as good as they seem when they are rolling and never quite as bad as they seem when things are going poorly. I won't go pretending I'm not concerned about the recent skid the team finds itself in, but there is still time to correct course as Manoah aside the rotation seems to be rounding into form and the offense has been showing signs of life. The bullpen is a big concern right now as there is a definite lack of trustworthy options right now.

[connorp]

Don’t worry, Max. When everyone needs the soothing; “there’s always next year”, I think they’ll know where to go

[connorp]

The Green deal still has plenty of time to work out for the team so I don't know why you feel the need to dunk on that signing at this point.

 

Probably will work out, based on percentages. What are the chances that two New Green Deals can be terrible?

Bada bing

…and by that, of I’m referring to the recent Elijah Green deal a couple years ago that has not panned out to say the least. At least Arjun Nimmala wasn’t supposed to be a fringe 1-1 talent.

 

Sorry if there was any confusion there.

[BigCecil]

The Green deal still has plenty of time to work out for the team so I don't know why you feel the need to dunk on that signing at this point.

 

22% of this season is done bud. He is a pen arm that cost $11M who we looked at for 5 weeks coming off TJ. Guys who liked the deal said he was a 1.5 WAR arm. Guys who didn't like the deal said the IL and stuff risk made him too expensive. He only has 6 IP....cause he has been on the IL. I didn't like the deal. Its not dunking. Its not personal...just business. The guy was great for the NYY. If all goes well health and stuff wise he does have time to be worth it. I would take a $ bet that he won't be.

[Laika]

I would have preferred the 3 year green option to the 2 year option

 

never liked the end result

[max silver]

22% of this season is done bud. He is a pen arm that cost $11M who we looked at for 5 weeks coming off TJ. Guys who liked the deal said he was a 1.5 WAR arm. Guys who didn't like the deal said the IL and stuff risk made him too expensive. He only has 6 IP....cause he has been on the IL. I didn't like the deal. Its not dunking. Its not personal...just business. The guy was great for the NYY. If all goes well health and stuff wise he does have time to be worth it. I would take a $ bet that he won't be.

 

I felt he showed enough stuff and command wise that it was worth it to pick up the options. I think the TJ is largely a non factor at this point as the shoulder issue is something else altogether. Hopefully he's not out too much longer as the pen could really use another dependable arm right now.

[BigCecil]

I felt he showed enough stuff and command wise that it was worth it to pick up the options. I think the TJ is largely a non factor at this point as the shoulder issue is something else altogether. Hopefully he's not out too much longer as the pen could really use another dependable arm right now.

 

Time will tell. No debate we need him know and need him to be good. I don't know how many times this board has discussed the volatility of pen arms and the risk of spending a large portion of available payroll on them. In 2021 there was endless discussion about why the FO was right not to over invest in the pen.

 

Ideally we are internally developing pen arms from the minors - failed prospect starters etc who are more effective with less innings and being able to reduce the pitch repertoire they need for shorter outings. Romano and Mayza kind of fit that mould. Just need more.

[mphenhef]

 

Ideally we are internally developing pen arms from the minors - failed prospect starters etc who are more effective with less innings and being able to reduce the pitch repertoire they need for shorter outings. Romano and Mayza kind of fit that mould. Just need more.

 

 

Ideally, but this front office has failed miserably at that

[Brownie19]

Ideally, but this front office has failed miserably at that

 

There are LOTS of interesting bullpen arms that are very close to contributing at least. Sell Romano, Garcia, Green, etc. this year and let's bring them on and see what they have to offer.

[Laika]

There are LOTS of interesting bullpen arms that are very close to contributing at least. Sell Romano, Garcia, Green, etc. this year and let's bring them on and see what they have to offer.

 

well it seemed that way in spring but most of them are s***ing the bed or look less interesting right now.

 

Zulu - cut

TJ Brock - hasn't pitched. hurt?

Cooke - horrible so far

Juenger - didn't show plus stuff, really. okay numbers presently.

Danner - not striking people out in AAA

CJVE - Horrible in AA

Pardinho - here is one. elite numbers in AA and he flashed good stuff in spring.

 

Eric Pardinho

 

9.2 IP, 14 Ks, 1 BB, 1 HR

[Masterbather]

Time will tell. No debate we need him know and need him to be good. I don't know how many times this board has discussed the volatility of pen arms and the risk of spending a large portion of available payroll on them. In 2021 there was endless discussion about why the FO was right not to over invest in the pen.

 

Ideally we are internally developing pen arms from the minors - failed prospect starters etc who are more effective with less innings and being able to reduce the pitch repertoire they need for shorter outings. Romano and Mayza kind of fit that mould. Just need more.

 

I liked the Green signing and option. I'll stick my neck out on that. If it doesn't work out it doesn't work out but I thought it was worth the risk. As far as 2021 goes, knowing that might be the best year in our window even back then, I was willing to over invest in anything and everything.

[connorp]

I would have preferred the 3 year green option to the 2 year option

 

never liked the end result

 

Playoff teams sign the guys like Green because most of the reason RP is so volatile is bc many of them aren’t genuinely that good. You can’t chance finding that out with the younger ones you’re not sure on, so you pay some guys like Green.

 

Unfortunately for the FO, they bet wrong on what they had for an overall roster.

[BigCecil]

I liked the Green signing and option. I'll stick my neck out on that. If it doesn't work out it doesn't work out but I thought it was worth the risk. As far as 2021 goes, knowing that might be the best year in our window even back then, I was willing to over invest in anything and everything.

 

There is/was a fair argument to make that Green deal.

 

As for 2021 I was on your side on that one. Chatwood and Hand etc just didn't cut it. I never bought the "learning experience" year post mortem. It was just a waste of talent. Baseball isn't linear year to year. Sometimes you have to put more of your chips in. Berrios was a big add - Silver Fox and Cimber helped bridge- but they stopped there when the pen needed real late inning leverage help, not the Hand.

[Brownie19]

well it seemed that way in spring but most of them are s***ing the bed or look less interesting right now.

 

Zulu - cut

TJ Brock - hasn't pitched. hurt?

Cooke - horrible so far

Juenger - didn't show plus stuff, really. okay numbers presently.

Danner - not striking people out in AAA

CJVE - Horrible in AA

Pardinho - here is one. elite numbers in AA and he flashed good stuff in spring.

 

Eric Pardinho

 

9.2 IP, 14 Ks, 1 BB, 1 HR

 

Oh FFS. Toronto development strikes again! AA brings a 20 year old who's never pitched above A ball, inserts him in as our closer and he's dominant in 2015. Atkins relivers can't even get people out in AAA. How does Cooke go from 2-3 BB/9 in A/AA to 8-9 BB/9 in AAA?

[Brownie19]

There is/was a fair argument to make that Green deal.

 

As for 2021 I was on your side on that one. Chatwood and Hand etc just didn't cut it. I never bought the "learning experience" year post mortem. It was just a waste of talent. Baseball isn't linear year to year. Sometimes you have to put more of your chips in. Berrios was a big add - Silver Fox and Cimber helped bridge- but they stopped there when the pen needed real late inning leverage help, not the Hand.

 

To be fair. 2020 Brad Hand was exactly what the bullpen needed....f***, Hand even went on to pitch WELL for the Mets in 2021 after we let him go. That version of Hand would have been perfectly fine (2.40 ERA, 3.40 FIP, 4.01 xFIP, 9.5 K/9)....he literally JUST completely s*** the bed when he arrived in Toronto for 8 2/3 innings. The guy had 5 straight years with 1+ WAR and was only 31. There was just so much randomness those results - it's unbelievable.

[Brownie19]

Anyone have any real intel on Alberta boy Adam Macko we got with Swanson for Teo?

 

I looked at his AA numbers - high BB rate 3.64 FIP. V? Stuff?

 

Highly doubtful there's much there. Maybe a bullpen arm one day?

[glory]

Ideally, but this front office has failed miserably at that

 

Yeah you don't see this team get RPs from the scrap heap and turn them around, and aside from Romano, their internal development hasn't been great in that area as well. Just looking at the pen now, they spent $21m on Green, $16m on Garcia, traded Teo coming off a 3 WAR/130 wRC+ for Swanson, Tellez for Richards/Francis, Groshans for Pop (...and Bass), and Frasso for White (DFA'd twice). They've developed Romano (good), Pearson (probably sucks), and Mayza (good in 2021 and 2023). As mentioned, their minor league relievers all looked like they had promise prior to the season but now look a lot less desirable based on performance.

 

I think for the most part Atkins has the right idea with RPs, they are volatile year to year and you shouldn't have to commit big money/years or trade anything significant for them. He's deviated from that a bit recently (Swanson trade, Green signing), but the Jays pen was a weakness in 2021-22 so in the absence of development or finding some diamonds in the rough, they kinda had to invest in it.

[Stangstag]

To be fair. 2020 Brad Hand was exactly what the bullpen needed....f***, Hand even went on to pitch WELL for the Mets in 2021 after we let him go. That version of Hand would have been perfectly fine (2.40 ERA, 3.40 FIP, 4.01 xFIP, 9.5 K/9)....he literally JUST completely s*** the bed when he arrived in Toronto for 8 2/3 innings. The guy had 5 straight years with 1+ WAR and was only 31. There was just so much randomness those results - it's unbelievable.

 

I remember feeling at the time that Brad Hand was a risky add. He always seemed extremely volatile and never looked as good as the advanced numbers implied.

 

I somewhat blame Charlie for continuing to send him out in high leverage situations when it was clear he was struggling and we had other options. 1 win would have made a difference. I specifically remember that Seattle game where he kept spiking balls and also that Washington game where he gave up the big homer.

[Stangstag]

Yeah you don't see this team get RPs from the scrap heap and turn them around, and aside from Romano, their internal development hasn't been great in that area as well. Just looking at the pen now, they spent $21m on Green, $16m on Garcia, traded Teo coming off a 3 WAR/130 wRC+ for Swanson, Tellez for Richards/Francis, Groshans for Pop (...and Bass), and Frasso for White (DFA'd twice). They've developed Romano (good), Pearson (probably sucks), and Mayza (good in 2021 and 2023). As mentioned, their minor league relievers all looked like they had promise prior to the season but now look a lot less desirable based on performance.

 

I think for the most part Atkins has the right idea with RPs, they are volatile year to year and you shouldn't have to commit big money/years or trade anything significant for them. He's deviated from that a bit recently (Swanson trade, Green signing), but the Jays pen was a weakness in 2021-22 so in the absence of development or finding some diamonds in the rough, they kinda had to invest in it.

 

f***ing Jose Leclerc was the closer down the stretch that helped Texas win the world series. Enough said.

[Terminator]

I remember feeling at the time that Brad Hand was a risky add. He always seemed extremely volatile and never looked as good as the advanced numbers implied.

 

I somewhat blame Charlie for continuing to send him out in high leverage situations when it was clear he was struggling and we had other options. 1 win would have made a difference. I specifically remember that Seattle game where he kept spiking balls and also that Washington game where he gave up the big homer.

 

What's annoying about Hand is that he was downright terrible for us for the 8 innings we had him but he was serviceable that year for the Nats and then after we dumped him he was pretty good for the Mets.

 

He even went on to put up decent years in 22 and 23 even. It was just those 8 innings for us.

[wilko]

What's annoying about Hand is that he was downright terrible for us for the 8 innings we had him but he was serviceable that year for the Nats and then after we dumped him he was pretty good for the Mets.

 

He even went on to put up decent years in 22 and 23 even. It was just those 8 innings for us.

 

I always found that Brad didn't have a long enough leash with the Jays, and was dealt a band Hand.

[BigCecil]

I remember feeling at the time that Brad Hand was a risky add. He always seemed extremely volatile and never looked as good as the advanced numbers implied.

 

I somewhat blame Charlie for continuing to send him out in high leverage situations when it was clear he was struggling and we had other options. 1 win would have made a difference. I specifically remember that Seattle game where he kept spiking balls and also that Washington game where he gave up the big homer.

 

Hand had a 4.34 FIP for the Nats in 2021 when we got him. His K/9 and BB/9 per were just under 9 and 4 respectively. His was stale dated on his best days in high leverage, and we kept throwing him out there like he was an elite back end arm.

 

Whats wild is he only pitched 9 innings for us but it sure seemed like he did a lot of damage in that short time LOL.

 

He did get a bit better for the Mets (his 3rd '21 team) once we turfed him, and he wasn't bad in 2022 either although he wasnt used in high leverage. He was middle inning guy.

[jaysthebest]

I am so tired of seeing the same batting order every game.

 

Springer always leadoff no matter how he performs

[Terminator]

I am so tired of seeing the same batting order every game.

 

Springer always leadoff no matter how he performs

 

So obvious to just switch Springer and Schneider in the lineup

[wilko]

So obvious to just switch Springer and Schneider in the lineup

 

Yup. I said last year the Jays will be lucky to get 2 WAR from Springer going forward. He's not what he used to be, and should be moved accordingly.