The Ship is Sinking

[mikepelfrey]

Your posts continue to be garbage as you've done before, lol. Post history is a thing, and yours is terrible.

 

I’m just pointing out facts I’ll admit I’m wrong when the Jays win something. For a team with by far the largest market in all of baseball, (all of Canada) they should be better. Don’t forget the jays were the first team with 4 million in attendance, so there’s no excuse this team shouldn’t be right there with the Dodgers and the Yankees in regard to payroll and scouting.

 

I know you don’t like that they aren’t but they are where they are…..Larry Dolan suckered them into hiring Shatkins so he wouldn’t lose Chris Antoinetti one of the brightest young minds in all of baseball, which led to Alex Anthopoulos leaving the Blue Jays. Once again, those are incontrovertible facts.

 

The jays are where they are for a reason and deservedly so, and you can deny it all you like, but it doesn’t change the facts. And I for one prefer to deal with reality. You can delude yourself into thinking that somehow finding a way to the 3rd wild card changes things, but I won’t. This team needs a total overhaul and Shatkins isn’t qualified to do that

 

No matter what delusional thinking you can dream up

 

Atlanta and Cleveland don’t have near the finances or market share the Blue Jays are blessed with. That’s a fact, you just won’t admit it

 

And here’s another salient fact for you. The jays best player Vlad Guerrero was signed by Alex Anthopoulos, their second best Bo Bichette was signed by Anthopoulos scouts a year later after following him for 2 years.

Want proof?

 

https://www.pressreader.com/canada/national-post-national-edition/20190911/281883005035003

 

In that article it even says Atkins had never even seen Bichette play but Anthopoulos scouting staff were adamant that he be drafted.. most of them were fired by Atkins a year later so he could hire his own people.

 

As others have pointed out the Jays drafting record since is Attrocious. So keep deluding yourself. The facts are indisputably there for all to see

Edited June 25, 2024 by mikepelfrey

[Spanky99]

I’m just pointing out facts I’ll admit I’m wrong when the Jays win something. For a team with by far the largest market in all of baseball, (all of Canada) they should be better. Don’t forget the jays were the first team with 4 million in attendance, so there’s no excuse this team shouldn’t be right there with the Dodgers and the Yankees in regard to payroll and scouting.

 

I know you don’t like that they aren’t but they are where they are…..Larry Dolan suckered them into hiring Shatkins so he wouldn’t lose Chris Antoinetti one of the brightest young minds in all of baseball, which led to Alex Anthopoulos leaving the Blue Jays. Once again, those are incontrovertible facts.

 

The jays are where they are for a reason and deservedly so, and you can deny it all you like, but it doesn’t change the facts. And I for one prefer to deal with reality. You can delude yourself into thinking that somehow finding a way to the 3rd wild card changes things, but I won’t. This team needs a total overhaul and Shatkins isn’t qualified to do that

 

No matter what delusional thinking you can dream up

 

Atlanta and Cleveland don’t have near the finances or market share the Blue Jays are blessed with. That’s a fact, you just won’t admit it

 

And here’s another salient fact for you. The jays best player Vlad Guerrero was signed by Alex Anthopoulos, their second best Bo Bichette was signed by Anthopoulos scouts a year later after following him for 2 years.

Want proof?

 

https://www.pressreader.com/canada/national-post-national-edition/20190911/281883005035003

 

In that article it even says Atkins had never even seen Bichette play but Anthopoulos scouting staff were adamant that he be drafted.. most of them were fired by Atkins a year later so he could hire his own people.

 

As others have pointed out the Jays drafting record since is Attrocious. So keep deluding yourself. The facts are indisputably there for all to see

 

Head to reddit, ya sandbagger. You pulled that s*** out of your ass, again. Hurry, comeback with a quoted quip from wicki. Oh yeah, you're a bag of hammers. Pipeline has them 30 out of 30 according to you? lol

Edited June 25, 2024 by Spanky99

[mikepelfrey]

Head on over to bleacher report .com and see for yourself you idiot. The reference that was made was that since the jays had called up all of their top of the line prospects, those that remain would rank 30 out of 30. With Tiedeman injured, Orelvis Martinez and Addison Barger called up, that’s 3 of the top 5 prospects no longer in the ranks.

 

As they rank the Jays at #23, with them included, Without them, they’d be 30 out of 30.

 

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/10115581-mlb-farm-system-rankings-for-the-2024-season

 

It was referenced in MLB blogs audio podcast just last week when they talked about updating their rankings for 2025.

 

Maybe if you took your head out your arse you’d know that.

 

According to them Branden Bariera is the lone tier 2 prospect left. By way of comparison the Red Sox have 3 tier 1 and 3 tier 2 players. Tampa Bay Rays have 4 tier 1 and 2 tier 2 players. The Yankees have 5 tier 1 players and 2 tier 2 players. And the Baltimore Orioles have 5 tier 1 players and 2 tier 2 players.

 

so by any measure the Blue Jays are behind every single AL East team in regard to prospect reinforcements, and you seem to think that doesn’t matter and The Jays are fine with Shapiro and Atkins. Every other team in the majors has at least 3 tier 1 and 2 prospects. The Jays have 1.

 

Well the evidence speaks for itself and it isn’t pretty.

Edited June 25, 2024 by mikepelfrey

[jaysblue]

Jesus Christ man, every fnnn post of yours is to point out that other Teams also suck.

 

Do you have any accountability for this Team or in your job?

 

Boss, don't fire me because there are other people in the company that get paid the same as I do and suck just as bad.

 

Zero playoff wins with a home built team in 8 years. No advance progress since 2020.

 

The Teams you are talking about, 3 of the 4 have won world series in the last few years and most of them are still in it and some were rocked with injuries.

 

Every post is the same s*** with you. Other teams don't have SP depth, other teams are in a slump.

 

This is about results and the Blue Jays! Have some fnnn accountability for once for your sports team and demand some results.

 

Same BS excuse factory out of you for years..

 

This should be the post of the year!

[Spanky99]

Head on over to bleacher report .com and see for yourself you idiot. The reference that was made was that since the jays had called up all of their top of the line prospects, those that remain would rank 30 out of 30. With Tiedeman injured, Orelvis Martinez and Addison Barger called up, that’s 3 of the top 5 prospects no longer in the ranks.

 

As they rank the Jays at #23, with them included, Without them, they’d be 30 out of 30.

 

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/10115581-mlb-farm-system-rankings-for-the-2024-season

 

It was referenced in MLB blogs audio podcast just last week when they talked about updating their rankings for 2025.

 

Maybe if you took your head out your arse you’d know that.

 

According to them Branden Bariera is the lone tier 2 prospect left. By way of comparison the Red Sox have 3 tier 1 and 3 tier 2 players. Tampa Bay Rays have 4 tier 1 and 2 tier 2 players. The Yankees have 5 tier 1 players and 2 tier 2 players. And the Baltimore Orioles have 5 tier 1 players and 2 tier 2 players.

 

so by any measure the Blue Jays are behind every single AL East team in regard to prospect reinforcements, and you seem to think that doesn’t matter and The Jays are fine with Shapiro and Atkins. Every other team in the majors has at least 3 tier 1 and 2 prospects. The Jays have 1.

 

Well the evidence speaks for itself and it isn’t pretty.

 

Yeah, so Pipeline didn't rank them 30, thanks meat. As for the rest, thanks for stuffing my mouth with s*** I didn't say and making my eyes bleed with this fabricated nonsense.

[connorp]

Spanky got wrecked. That’s why maybe it’s best to stick to memes and lols, mate.

[Spanky99]

Spanky got wrecked. That’s why maybe it’s best to stick to memes and lols, mate.

 

How so, meat? I didn't mention a thing to the guy about all that s*** talk he's gumming on about, he said the Jays were recently ranked 30/30 by Pipeline that I bolded, that's it , that's his own little pipe dream. Try and keep up.

[BigCecil]

Jesus Christ man, every fnnn post of yours is to point out that other Teams also suck.

 

Do you have any accountability for this Team or in your job?

 

Boss, don't fire me because there are other people in the company that get paid the same as I do and suck just as bad.

 

Zero playoff wins with a home built team in 8 years. No advance progress since 2020.

 

The Teams you are talking about, 3 of the 4 have won world series in the last few years and most of them are still in it and some were rocked with injuries.

 

Every post is the same s*** with you. Other teams don't have SP depth, other teams are in a slump.

 

This is about results and the Blue Jays! Have some fnnn accountability for once for your sports team and demand some results.

 

Same BS excuse factory out of you for years..

 

Worked in big pubcos at senior level and have started and built companies as entrepreneur. Whataboutism never cuts it long. Ultimately accountability rests at the top. Simply blaming the employees and management you hired becomes an unhealthy organization.

 

Baseball, like every single other business, deals with variables and economic or other unforeseen events that affect results. Injuries, suspensions, under performance etc. etc.

 

The FO's job is to juggle those axes well and get financial & performance results. If that were easy to do, no execs would get compensated such large amounts. They are paid to be right a lot more than they are wrong.

 

The last few years ownership has been happy with the Jays financial results, but not the overall performance results. But the lack of drafting and development success has now caught up with our FO, and the financial results (payroll, attendance and eyeballs watching, concessions) will eventually converge with the on the field results.

 

This FO has done some good things and some bad things. Bottom line is its just not been good enough overall, and some people are getting whacked. And they should be.

[Spanky99]

Brownie will always support Ross Atkins and this front office no matter what. I don't think he'll ever say anything bad about them.

 

I read that more as Brownie talking about variance with teams and high payrolls, but that's just me, IDK.

[Spanky99]

Worked in big pubcos at senior level and have started and built companies as entrepreneur. Whataboutism never cuts it long. Ultimately accountability rests at the top. Simply blaming the employees and management you hired becomes an unhealthy organization.

 

Baseball, like every single other business, deals with variables and economic or other unforeseen events that affect results. Injuries, suspensions, under performance etc. etc.

 

The FO's job is to juggle those axes well and get financial & performance results. If that were easy to do, no execs would get compensated such large amounts. They are paid to be right a lot more than they are wrong.

 

The last few years ownership has been happy with the Jays financial results, but not the overall performance results. But the lack of drafting and development success has now caught up with our FO, and the financial results (payroll, attendance and eyeballs watching, concessions) will eventually converge with the on the field results.

 

This FO has done some good things and some bad things. Bottom line is its just not been good enough overall, and some people are getting whacked. And they should be.

 

Atkins' a dead man walking, only this team can save him. I doubt he can make any moves unless it's a collective org decision, correct? I mean, that'd be bad practice at this point.

[Omar]

Atkins' a dead man walking.

 

I don't see how Shapiro can rationalize giving him another kick at the can but stranger things have happened.

[Spanky99]

I don't see how Shapiro can rationalize giving him another kick at the can but stranger things have happened.

 

Yeah, I edit more in that post, but I can't see him surviving a sellers deadline in a few weeks. I've thrown my hands up, this team is done.

[BigCecil]

Atkins' a dead man walking, only this team can save him. I doubt he can make any moves unless it's a collective org decision, correct? I mean, that'd be bad practice at this point.

 

Yep. He is a position of conflict everyone sees.

 

Whats in his best current short term survival interest may not be in the best interests of the business/franchise mid to long term. So he has been neutered when it comes to decision making.

[Spanky99]

Yep. He is a position of conflict everyone sees.

 

Whats in his best current short term survival interest may not be in the best interests of the business/franchise mid to long term. So he has been neutered when it comes to decision making.

 

Figured as much, cheers.

[Omar]

Yep. He is a position of conflict everyone sees.

 

Whats in his best current short term survival interest may not be in the best interests of the business/franchise mid to long term. So he has been neutered when it comes to decision making.

 

Has he been neutered though? You think they have told him to hold off making moves?

[max silver]

Has he been neutered though? You think they have told him to hold off making moves?

 

There are typically very few moves made at this point of the season so it's sort of impossible to know if Atkins has been held back at this point.

[BigCecil]

Has he been neutered though? You think they have told him to hold off making moves?

 

They have placed tighter controls on decisions. These people are intelligent. The situation is obvious to most of us dumb dumbs on this board. It sure as hell is obvious to the Board and the committee of the Board that oversees and liaises with Shapiro for the Jays segment of the Rogers business.

 

Think about the capex and payroll invested in this business and renos/development facilities. Think about the current state of the farm and the on the field product. Think about the short windows of Jano, Kooch, Bo, Vlad. Think about what they owe Springer. Think about the lack of vision into future costs and talent with no long term extensions (this can be both a pos and neg). I don't want to be chicken little, but it ain't clear or pretty.

[max silver]

Absolutely...tighter controls in place. These people are intelligent. The situation is obvious to most of us dumb dumbs on this board. It sure as hell is obvious to the Board and the committee of the Board that oversees and liaises with Shapiro for the Jays segment of the Rogers business.

 

Think about the capex and payroll invested in this business and renos/development facilities. Think about the state of the farm and the on the field product. Think about the short windows of Jano, Kooch, Bo, Vlad. Think about the lack of vision into future costs and talent with no long term extensions (this can be both a pos or neg). I don't want to be chicken little, but it ain't clear or pretty.

 

Do you have some sort of inside information? Your posts certainly imply that to be the case, just wondering if you have an actual inside scoop or if this is largely conjecture.

[BigCecil]

Do you have some sort of inside information? Your posts certainly imply that to be the case, just wondering if you have an actual inside scoop or if this is largely conjecture.

 

I have a good source bud. Not conjecture. Also, this is business 101 SOP. Most of this path is obvious.

[max silver]

I have a good source bud. Not conjecture. Also, this is business 101 SOP. Most of this path is obvious.

 

What does your source have to say about the overall direction of the club? Is a retool coming? Full on rebuild? Is anyone's job safe at this point?

[Brownie19]

I read that more as Brownie talking about variance with teams and high payrolls, but that's just me, IDK.

 

f***ing creep can't go a day without talking about me. So sad.

[Omar]

There are typically very few moves made at this point of the season so it's sort of impossible to know if Atkins has been held back at this point.

 

Not really. In the past Atkins acquired Cimber, Richards, Francis, Dickerson and some others all in June or early July.

[BigCecil]

Cautionary tales with volatility of bullpens all over.

 

Trade a 130 wRC+ career .226 ISO bat like Teo, not extending him on the cheap, for a RP whose extra years of control aren't much good to us in the Minors.

 

$10.5M AAV times 2 for a 33 year old Green - with injury risk coming off TJ, who 50% through 2024, has been worth negative WAR.

 

Edwin Diaz 5/102 sucking.

 

Hader 5/95 has been great.

 

Yimi has been nails in '24 for $6M

 

In 2021 the pen did us in. Is there a moral to this story on pen arms and value? A Cap on what you want to pay them? Its pretty obvious that you need to develop more pen arms from the farm. Failed starters etc. Mayza was one...Romano was a Rule 5. Thornton was but blossomed in SEA as has Saucedo.

[connorp]

How so, meat? I didn't mention a thing to the guy about all that s*** talk he's gumming on about, he said the Jays were recently ranked 30/30 by Pipeline that I bolded, that's it , that's his own little pipe dream. Try and keep up.

 

I’ve kept up with you 20+ years. I already know the deal.

[max silver]

Cautionary tales with volatility of bullpens all over.

 

Trade a 130 wRC+ career .226 ISO bat like Teo, not extending him on the cheap, for a RP whose extra years of control aren't much good to us in the Minors.

 

$10.5M AAV times 2 for a 33 year old Green - with injury risk coming off TJ, who 50% through 2024, has been worth negative WAR.

 

Edwin Diaz 5/102 sucking.

 

Hader 5/95 has been great.

 

Yimi has been nails in '24 for $6M

 

In 2021 the pen did us in. Is there a moral to this story on pen arms and value? A Cap on what you want to pay them? Its pretty obvious that you need to develop more pen arms from the farm. Failed starters etc. Mayza was one...Romano was a Rule 5. Thornton was but blossomed in SEA as has Saucedo.

 

Green looks bad when you look at FIP in isolation. Look at ERA and xERA and he suddenly looks much better as the only runs he's allowed all season are a handful of solo home runs.

 

Would Teo have been willing to sign a cheap team friendly extension? I guess that's something we will likely never know.

[Brownie19]

Cautionary tales with volatility of bullpens all over.

 

Trade a 130 wRC+ career .226 ISO bat like Teo, not extending him on the cheap, for a RP whose extra years of control aren't much good to us in the Minors.

 

$10.5M AAV times 2 for a 33 year old Green - with injury risk coming off TJ, who 50% through 2024, has been worth negative WAR.

 

Edwin Diaz 5/102 sucking.

 

Hader 5/95 has been great.

 

Yimi has been nails in '24 for $6M

 

In 2021 the pen did us in. Is there a moral to this story on pen arms and value? A Cap on what you want to pay them? Its pretty obvious that you need to develop more pen arms from the farm. Failed starters etc. Mayza was one...Romano was a Rule 5. Thornton was but blossomed in SEA as has Saucedo.

 

What's hilarious is that most people on this board wanted Trent Thornton punted to the moon long ago and were ripping Atkins for keeping him around far too long.

[BigCecil]

Green looks bad when you look at FIP in isolation. Look at ERA and xERA and he suddenly looks much better as the only runs he's allowed all season are a handful of solo home runs.

 

Would Teo have been willing to sign a cheap team friendly extension? I guess that's something we will likely never know.

 

Was just more really thinking about pen arms in general. We have debated the Green Teo stuff ad nauseum. Whats a middle inning medium to high leverage pen arm worth vs a middle of the order bat position player.

 

Green hasn't been bad, and he was hurt. FIP is material for a pen arm. Point is it was a large pen arm investment for this FO given their history. I would argue it was a risky one based on injury history/age.

 

We will never know on Teo correct. At the end of '22 he was coming off a 2.9 WAR season. There was a lot of concern about his OF play and some brain dead behavior. We have no idea if he would have done a 2+1 option or not and at what AAV.

[mikepelfrey]

Take a closer look Spanky according to bleacher report, the Blue Jays have 2 tier B prospects no other team in the major leagues has less than three since the callup of barger and Martinez and teidemans injury.

 

The Red Sox have 3 tier 2 and 3 tier 1 prospects

The Rays have 2 tier 2 and 4 tier 1 prospects

The Yankees have 2 tier 2 and 5 tier 1 prospects

The Orioles have 2 tier 2 and 5 tier 1 prospects

 

So the blue jays minor league system right now sucks and Shatkins is not the one anyone with half a brain would choose to restock it. And that’s the point. And I’m not the only one here saying it.

 

And as I said the same people who ranked the jays for 2024, say as they prepare for their 2025 ranking that the jays, with their recent callups, would rank 30th. They have no axe to grind, they’re just analyzing the data, and it speaks volumes

Edited June 25, 2024 by mikepelfrey

[jaysblue]

Was just more really thinking about pen arms in general. We have debated the Green Teo stuff ad nauseum. Whats a middle inning medium to high leverage pen arm worth vs a middle of the order bat position player.

 

Green hasn't been bad, and he was hurt. FIP is material for a pen arm. Point is it was a large pen arm investment for this FO given their history. I would argue it was a risky one based on injury history/age.

 

We will never know on Teo correct. At the end of '22 he was coming off a 2.9 WAR season. There was a lot of concern about his OF play and some brain dead behavior. We have no idea if he would have done a 2+1 option or not and at what AAV.

 

We'll see how Macko does to determine the overall trade, but still to this day I never was really a big fan of the Teo for Swanson deal. Blue Jays shouldn't have had to trade an everyday player for a 29-year-old middle reliever. Relievers are volatile to begin with. Swanson now is rotting in AAA and looks like he's toast.

 

There was a lot of risk with signing Green given his previous injury and age, though had no issue with them taking on that risk/reward as long as that money didn't tie them down from signing other players.

[Terminator]

 

This season is so bad that Vlad has even changed his tune on playing for the Yankees. Kill me.