Out of my 35 years of watching baseball, that was the WORST managerial decision I've

[5ToolPhenom]

Out of my 35 years of watching baseball, that was the WORST managerial decision I've EVER seen.

 

Honestly, if I was Pete Walker or Donnie Baseball, I would have grabbed Schneider by the scruff of his neck if he announced he was going to go out there to pull him. Berrios was absolutely dealing, nearly unhittable and to pull him after 3 INNINGS!?! Inexcusable. Something as egregious as that almost suggests that Schneider was trying to throw the game. I've never seen such an idiotic managerial display in my life.

 

If the Jays don't fire Schneider, I don't think I'm going to bother rooting for the Jays next year. It was bad enough to see him throw away the late 5 run lead against the Mariners last playoffs due to his terrible roster management, but here's there's just no excuse. A team like the Blue Jays who's built to win NOW should have a manager with experience. Not some bum who's only ever coached in the minor leagues.

 

Sorry for the rant, I've just never been more dumbfounded when watching a game. I was literally yelling at the TV: "WHAT THE F*CK ARE YOU DOING!?!? YOU IDIOT!!!" And of course the decision paid off just about as well as I knew it would.

 

Unreal.

[Omar]

When Schneider headed out of the dugout, collectively, the Blue Jays fan base knew what was happening and were helpless to stop it.

 

[hanton]

Out of my 35 years of watching baseball, that was the WORST managerial decision I've EVER seen.

 

Honestly, if I was Pete Walker or Donnie Baseball, I would have grabbed Schneider by the scruff of his neck if he announced he was going to go out there to pull him. Berrios was absolutely dealing, nearly unhittable and to pull him after 3 INNINGS!?! Inexcusable. Something as egregious as that almost suggests that Schneider was trying to throw the game. I've never seen such an idiotic managerial display in my life.

 

If the Jays don't fire Schneider, I don't think I'm going to bother rooting for the Jays next year. It was bad enough to see him throw away the late 5 run lead against the Mariners last playoffs due to his terrible roster management, but here's there's just no excuse. A team like the Blue Jays who's built to win NOW should have a manager with experience. Not some bum who's only ever coached in the minor leagues.

 

Sorry for the rant, I've just never been more dumbfounded when watching a game. I was literally yelling at the TV: "WHAT THE F*CK ARE YOU DOING!?!? YOU IDIOT!!!" And of course the decision paid off just about as well as I knew it would.

 

Unreal.

 

At the very least Atkins and the analytics team had input in the plan to use Kikuchi like they did, no way JS is this dumb

[flafson]

You saw on their faces, they decided of doing that before the game even started.

To make matters worse, they didn't even let Kikuchi stay in the game, could have just used another reliver as someone who is used to come in mid game with men on.

[Spanky99]

At the very least Atkins and the analytics team had input in the plan to use Kikuchi like they did, no way JS is this dumb

 

No doubt...

 

https://www.sportsnet.ca/mlb/article...d-from-game-2/

[The Iceman]

In a vacuum that was a horrible decision.

What complicated things was Berrios literally had the best stuff I have ever seen him have. At that point anyone with half a brain pivots and keeps him in there.

 

If it was a normal day and Berrios had his 3 runs over 7 innings stuff I can see getting creative with the early pull.

[Laika]

I don't agree with the decision but the logic is pretty sound.

 

The problem with stuff like this is you never know what would have happened if you did not make the decision. Berrios could have given up two homers and the 2-0 loss would have been 4-0.

 

Look, anyone with at least five brain cells knows the notion that a SP "looks great" through 3 innings is often ******** and no reason to just leave them in. In a tight playoff game if you leave a guy in until he starts to get hit it is often too late to win the game! Offensive players adjust. Stuff diminishes. Pitchers get tired.

 

The idea behind the move was to eliminate all of Minnesota's LHB early in the game so all of Toronto's RHRP could mow their lineup down. That actually did work. Kikuchi giving up the runs was somewhat unfortunate; those were not hard hit balls.

 

Now, the main reasons to not make the move and why I would lean towards not doing it would be these:

1. the humans playing the game will have a weird reaction to the jarring and controversial move

2. Kikuchi may not perform as expected since he is entering the game in an unusual spot

 

I think a better permutation would have been bringing in Tim Mayza at that moment to finish the inning, then letting Kikuchi start the next inning clean and stay in the game until all of their LHB have been pinch hit for.

 

But yeah, Berrios did look SO GOOD that calling an audible and giving him another full turn through their lineup was arguably warranted.

 

They could have also outlined this strategy and had it in their back pocket in case either of Berrios or Bassitt did NOT look crisp.

 

I dunno. Who f***ing knows.

 

It doesn't even matter because they scored zero runs, hahaha.

[BigCecil]

1. The Manager did not make this decision. It was made by FO and their analytics people.

 

2. #1 leads us to another issue which is it would good to have a Manager with balls. Unfortunately this FO will not hire such an animal.

 

3. We scored 1 run in 18 innings even with removal of Berrios, as much as it didn't help the flow of the game.

 

4. As good as Berrios was, and he was very good, I do think it was only a matter of time before he started getting hit by the LH bats in that line up. A BB and a bomb etc like game 1.

[Stangstag]

1. The Manager did not make this decision. It was made by FO and their analytics people.

 

2. #1 leads us to another issue which is it would good to have a Manager with balls. Unfortunately this FO will not hire such an animal.

 

3. We scored 1 run in 18 innings even with removal of Berrios, as much as it didn't help the flow of the game.

 

4. As good as Berrios was, and he was very good, I do think it was only a matter of time before he started getting hit by the LH bats in that line up. A BB and a bomb etc like game 1.

 

Scream this louder for the people in the back. Im sick of hearing that JOHN SCHNEIDER IS STUPID FOR PULLING BERRIOS HOW COULD HE DO THAT

[Krylian]

Out of my 35 years of watching baseball, that was the WORST managerial decision I've EVER seen.

 

Honestly, if I was Pete Walker or Donnie Baseball, I would have grabbed Schneider by the scruff of his neck if he announced he was going to go out there to pull him. Berrios was absolutely dealing, nearly unhittable and to pull him after 3 INNINGS!?! Inexcusable. Something as egregious as that almost suggests that Schneider was trying to throw the game. I've never seen such an idiotic managerial display in my life.

 

If the Jays don't fire Schneider, I don't think I'm going to bother rooting for the Jays next year. It was bad enough to see him throw away the late 5 run lead against the Mariners last playoffs due to his terrible roster management, but here's there's just no excuse. A team like the Blue Jays who's built to win NOW should have a manager with experience. Not some bum who's only ever coached in the minor leagues.

 

Sorry for the rant, I've just never been more dumbfounded when watching a game. I was literally yelling at the TV: "WHAT THE F*CK ARE YOU DOING!?!? YOU IDIOT!!!" And of course the decision paid off just about as well as I knew it would.

 

Unreal.

 

It wasn't a managerial decision. He decided nothing. It was decided for him.

[Olerud363]

I dunno. Who f***ing knows.

 

It doesn't even matter because they scored zero runs, hahaha.

 

Twins walked 11 times hit 2 homers. Blue Jays walked 5 times hit 0 homers. That is all you need to know.

 

(if you want to know what it was in the regular season it was Twins 590 walks, 233 homers, Jays 550 walks, 188 homers)

[Laika]

Twins walked 11 times hit 2 homers. Blue Jays walked 5 times hit 0 homers. That is all you need to know.

 

(if you want to know what it was in the regular season it was Twins 590 walks, 233 homers, Jays 550 walks, 188 homers)

 

MLB AVERAGES

 

2022 HR/game = 1.07

2023 HR/game = 1.21

 

~13% leaguewide increase in home runs

 

and the Blue Jays experienced a 6% decline in HR from 2022 to 2023

 

f***ing ROUGH, in context. And none of it is due to roster moves. Yeah they traded Teoscar but Varsho/Belt projected HR made up for that. It was just all the incumbents forgetting how to hit homers, within a leaguewide context of increasing long balls.

[Jonn]

I don’t really have an issue with them discussing a gameplan of using Kikuchi in an almost bridge situation. But your gameplan has to change based on what you see. If he was struggling or looked off you make an aggressive move like that.

 

I understand the logic but that really didn’t happen at that point in the ball game. Could have happened a couple innings later. That was the best I have seen Jose inawhile.

[Olerud363]

MLB AVERAGES

 

2022 HR/game = 1.07

2023 HR/game = 1.21

 

~13% leaguewide increase in home runs

 

and the Blue Jays experienced a 6% decline in HR from 2022 to 2023

 

f***ing ROUGH, in context. And none of it is due to roster moves. Yeah they traded Teoscar but Varsho/Belt projected HR made up for that. It was just all the incumbents forgetting how to hit homers, within a leaguewide context of increasing long balls.

 

Jays lost power in exchange for perhaps some average right? No. Jays hit .256 in 2023 down from .264.

[Laika]

Jays lost power in exchange for perhaps some average right? No. Jays hit .256 in 2023 down from .264.

 

Again, while the leaguewide batting average rose by 5 points.

[Olerud363]

Again, while the leaguewide batting average rose by 5 points.

 

They also lost 2 baserunners (Bo and Vlad) over the series.

 

It also looks like they lose at least 30 baserunners compared to teams like the Orioles and Twins with 10 or 15 extra double plays and 15 or 20 extra caught stealing.

 

I wonder how many that would be including pick offs and baserunning outs? Like maybe they are down 50+ runners compared to good teams.

[tazsub3]

Imagine being this upset while having no idea what's happening or who's making that decision. At the end of the day, the team gave up 5 runs in 2 games. The pitching and bullpen use was obviously not the issue.

 

You are also underestimating emotions , the team batters included got deflated after that move. Had it work, ok, but they gave up two runs and the balloon was gone.

I am not saying the offense is not as guilty, but the flow of the game matters, why in hockey a fight, or a big hit can change a course of a game

[Brownie19]

You are also underestimating emotions , the team batters included got deflated after that move. Had it work, ok, but they gave up two runs and the balloon was gone.

I am not saying the offense is not as guilty, but the flow of the game matters, why in hockey a fight, or a big hit can change a course of a game

 

I'm sure giving up 2 runs in the 4th inning felt more like like surrendering 10 runs. That's how f***ing terrible the offense is. It's pretty pathetic when allowing ANY runs throws your offense into panic mode.

 

Going into the series, I'm sure if you told everyone we were going to give up 5 runs in 2 games, we'd have all felt pretty good about that. The offense didn't produce - it didn't produce all year. So many underachievers. Blame the FO, blame the nerds, blame the coaches all you want. At the end of the day, the blame is on the players, specifically this offense. They didn't get the job done.

 

That said - baseball is often a game of inches. Chapman's flyball to deep right center flies another 2 feet and is off the wall, or his rip down the line yesterday falls fair and it's a different narrative. If the hits off Kikucci are hit a foot closer to Biggio and Bo - then nobody scores. Sometimes baseball doesn't seem fair as it can come down to some random outcomes.

[Terminator]

You are also underestimating emotions , the team batters included got deflated after that move. Had it work, ok, but they gave up two runs and the balloon was gone.

I am not saying the offense is not as guilty, but the flow of the game matters, why in hockey a fight, or a big hit can change a course of a game

 

Pulling Berrios made Vlad Jr. emotional and as a result he got picked off of 2nd lol

[Omar]

Scream this louder for the people in the back. Im sick of hearing that JOHN SCHNEIDER IS STUPID FOR PULLING BERRIOS HOW COULD HE DO THAT

 

Because he is sitting in the silo and has to push the button to bring on Armageddon! At some point he has to think for himself. I'm sick of hearing that it wasn't JS decision. We all f***in know that. He could have grown a pair and said to his coaches that I know we had a plan but I have to call an audible and change it. That's what leaders do.

 

This is turning into the Crimson Tide movie. John Schneider is the Gene Hackman character and the rest of the Jays fan base is Denzel Washington. Hackman wants to launch nuclear weapons and Denzel is arguing that the situation has changed.

 

Great movie by the way. Fantastic rewatch quality.

[Omar]

Pulling Berrios made Vlad Jr. emotional and as a result he got picked off of 2nd lol

 

No but the ab's in the 8/9th inning clearly indicate that this team had given up the ghost.

[wilko]

Schneider is basically a puppet that's ran by the analytics nerds. Will a different manager actually change anything? I can't see it unless Atkins and the nerds get replaced.... Do they get replaced with more nerds? Probably.

 

It seems the role of a manager is to be a puppet for the front office, that looks after a group of overpaid men playing a kids game.

[Stangstag]

I'm sure giving up 2 runs in the 4th inning felt more like like surrendering 10 runs. That's how f***ing terrible the offense is. It's pretty pathetic when allowing ANY runs throws your offense into panic mode.

 

Going into the series, I'm sure if you told everyone we were going to give up 5 runs in 2 games, we'd have all felt pretty good about that. The offense didn't produce - it didn't produce all year. So many underachievers. Blame the FO, blame the nerds, blame the coaches all you want. At the end of the day, the blame is on the players, specifically this offense. They didn't get the job done.

 

That said - baseball is often a game of inches. Chapman's flyball to deep right center flies another 2 feet and is off the wall, or his rip down the line yesterday falls fair and it's a different narrative. If the hits off Kikucci are hit a foot closer to Biggio and Bo - then nobody scores. Sometimes baseball doesn't seem fair as it can come down to some random outcomes.

 

Its funny how Chapman had 2 pivotal batted balls that ended up JUST short and JUST foul…. pretty much the same way his entire season has gone.

 

Those 2 games really summarized the whole season. They showed the same strengths and weaknesses we had all season long.

[Stangstag]

Because he is sitting in the silo and has to push the button to bring on Armageddon! At some point he has to think for himself. I'm sick of hearing that it wasn't JS decision. We all f***in know that. He could have grown a pair and said to his coaches that I know we had a plan but I have to call an audible and change it. That's what leaders do.

 

This is turning into the Crimson Tide movie. John Schneider is the Gene Hackman character and the rest of the Jays fan base is Denzel Washington. Hackman wants to launch nuclear weapons and Denzel is arguing that the situation has changed.

 

Great movie by the way. Fantastic rewatch quality.

 

Grown a pair and get fired if they end up still losing because the offense can’t score??

 

He should grow a pair and lose his job over this??

 

That’s stupid dude, come on. Place your frustration on the front office.

[Stangstag]

Schneider is basically a puppet that's ran by the analytics nerds. Will a different manager actually change anything? I can't see it unless Atkins and the nerds get replaced.... Do they get replaced with more nerds? Probably.

 

It seems the role of a manager is to be a puppet for the front office, that looks after a group of overpaid men playing a kids game.

 

It was clear as day when JS started making the same moves Charlie used to make. Both just puppets. The front office runs the games.

[connorp]

I don't agree with the decision but the logic is pretty sound.

 

The problem with stuff like this is you never know what would have happened if you did not make the decision. Berrios could have given up two homers and the 2-0 loss would have been 4-0.

 

Look, anyone with at least five brain cells knows the notion that a SP "looks great" through 3 innings is often ******** and no reason to just leave them in. In a tight playoff game if you leave a guy in until he starts to get hit it is often too late to win the game! Offensive players adjust. Stuff diminishes. Pitchers get tired.

 

The idea behind the move was to eliminate all of Minnesota's LHB early in the game so all of Toronto's RHRP could mow their lineup down. That actually did work. Kikuchi giving up the runs was somewhat unfortunate; those were not hard hit balls.

 

Now, the main reasons to not make the move and why I would lean towards not doing it would be these:

1. the humans playing the game will have a weird reaction to the jarring and controversial move

2. Kikuchi may not perform as expected since he is entering the game in an unusual spot

 

I think a better permutation would have been bringing in Tim Mayza at that moment to finish the inning, then letting Kikuchi start the next inning clean and stay in the game until all of their LHB have been pinch hit for.

 

But yeah, Berrios did look SO GOOD that calling an audible and giving him another full turn through their lineup was arguably warranted.

 

They could have also outlined this strategy and had it in their back pocket in case either of Berrios or Bassitt did NOT look crisp.

 

I dunno. Who f***ing knows.

 

It doesn't even matter because they scored zero runs, hahaha.

 

There has to be some kind of science for guys “just not having it” some days. If you’re aiming to give up zero runs, it’s just tough to expect 6 different guys to give you a scoreless inning. If you have a guy dealing, at least let him go through twice and give you 5 if all is well. Then hear about it when you pull the guy that gave up 1 hit on 70 pitches. Just think that pull is too early, and Kooch is not Andrew Miller

[5ToolPhenom]

At the very least Atkins and the analytics team had input in the plan to use Kikuchi like they did, no way JS is this dumb

 

I'm sure they went over situations for if Berrios looked shaky or if he was struggling, to then have a quick hook but I don't think there's any chance that they would have instructed him to pull him if he was dealing after 3 innings with only 45 pitches thrown.

 

Imagine watching the 2000 Yankees in the playoffs and seeing Andy Petitte get pulled after 3 innings when he's dealing. It's beyond comprehension.

[5ToolPhenom]

In a vacuum that was a horrible decision.

What complicated things was Berrios literally had the best stuff I have ever seen him have. At that point anyone with half a brain pivots and keeps him in there.

 

If it was a normal day and Berrios had his 3 runs over 7 innings stuff I can see getting creative with the early pull.

 

And it's Berrios starting against his old team. You could tell how important that was to him. I can understand having a game plan if he doesn't have his best stuff, but to have the hook after a measly 3 INNINGS when he's dealing? I mean they can't even use the 3rd time through the order excuse. I just don't understand how there's any logic behind what happened there.

[5ToolPhenom]

Scream this louder for the people in the back. Im sick of hearing that JOHN SCHNEIDER IS STUPID FOR PULLING BERRIOS HOW COULD HE DO THAT

 

I'm sorry, I'm just not buying it. Am I to really believe that a big league manager has no autonomy at all? You're telling me that it's decided PRE-GAME by the front office to pull a stud pitcher after 3 innings (when there's no injury related concerns)? I'm sorry that's just horse sh*t and you know it.

[5ToolPhenom]

It wasn't a managerial decision. He decided nothing. It was decided for him.

 

This is hearsay, show me a source. So you're telling me the front office said "if Berrios is dealing and throwing the game of his life, you have to pull him after 3 innings"?

 

Get real.