General Blue Jays Discussion Thread (2024)

[BTS]

Vlad, Bo, Springer, Varsho, Kirk, and KK have collectively been bad (combined WAR of 0.1). I think there’s a real chance KK is washed (never should have brought him back) but the others should get better as Turner, IKF, and Biggio regress. Then add Jansen to the mix which should help.

 

I can’t get over how bad Bo and Vlad have been. This team needs to find a way to add an elite player this offseason. We look like the f***ing Giants.

[Eat My Shatkins]

I can’t get over how bad Bo and Vlad have been. This team needs to find a way to add an elite player this offseason. We look like the f***ing Giants.

 

I keep saying it, but Atkins haters will claim he sucks and inherited the "core" but it looks more like to me that the core he inherited is actually what sucks and despite them being very average he still fields a 90ish win team every season and makes the playoffs in the toughest division.

 

They say if we have to retool/rebuild don't let him do it. I sure would, if the core he inherited was actually any good he'd have a 100ish win team every year instead.

[DigitalRock]

It’s early but 2023 vibes so far with RISP:

 

.214 average (28th in MLB)

1 HR (Tied for last in MLB)

.643 OPS (27th in MLB

[BTS]

I keep saying it, but Atkins haters will claim he sucks and inherited the "core" but it looks more like to me that the core he inherited is actually what sucks and despite them being very average he still fields a 90ish win team every season and makes the playoffs in the toughest division.

 

They say if we have to retool/rebuild don't let him do it. I sure would, if the core he inherited was actually any good he'd have a 100ish win team every year instead.

 

Yeah. It’s actually kind of a huge testament to the quality of the front office that they’ve assembled a winning team around the Vlad and Bo “core”. Basically a 90-win team assembled from FA signings and waiver claims.

[Eat My Shatkins]

Yeah. It’s actually kind of a huge testament to the quality of the front office that they’ve assembled a winning team around the Vlad and Bo “core”. Basically a 90-win team assembled from FA signings and waiver claims.

 

Yep, it's definitely a concern that they haven't really developed much homegrown talent, nothing elite anyways. But the depth is pretty solid and the pitching staff is bordering on elite with what looks like plenty more coming in the pipeline.

 

I mean if they can offload Bo and Vlad sometime in the next 8 months for some prospects and manage to lure Soto/Bregman/Adames here they will continue to field a pretty solid team for a while yet.

[Laika]

LMAO I just noticed that Vlad has the highest hard hit % of his career, highest LD% of his career, and a .394 xwOBA vs .311 wOBA

 

He just defies explanation at this point. His Fangraphs page is a black hole of riddles and disappointment.

 

As bad as he looks in specific PAs and in the clutch, he still has a good K rate this year and a v good walk rate and we have seen several 105mph+ screaming grounders right at infielders in the last week or so.

[Laika]

And then Bo... does it kind of feel like he is not being aggressive enough? He normally rocks a 20% K rate.

 

Right now he has the worst hard hit % and barrel % of his career, along with the highest contact rate.

 

He looks like IKF out there. Tons of weak ass contact.

 

Bo needs to take bigger hacks?

[BigCecil]

Yeah. It’s actually kind of a huge testament to the quality of the front office that they’ve assembled a winning team around the Vlad and Bo “core”. Basically a 90-win team assembled from FA signings and waiver claims.

 

Over the last 8 years in MLB lots "core" players on pretty successful teams haven't become what was hoped due to injury, free agency as their window ran out, or they just never became what they hoped. Thats a fairly long runway to draft, acquire and develop additions or replacements to the "core". Thats exactly what they said they would do back in 2017. Then you have orgs who have had to deal with unforeseen events like generational player Franco being ousted from baseball, an arm like Bauer gone, and a Tatis Jr getting 80 gm PED suspensions out of the blue.

 

I don't discount the challenge of dealing with Vlad so far in '24 and all of 23, but Bo has been a pretty consistent 4-5 WAR ish player. This FO has done a pretty good job IMO too, but I don't think they are alone in these challenges in assembling an 85+ win team. Comes with the territory. Thats why they get the big bucks.

 

Rogers has also made a substantial investment in payroll increases through FA's to help augment the "core", where they have lacked.

 

So much has changed since we played the O's in the 2016 wildcard game. That was a lot of runway ago.

Edited April 16, 2024 by BigCecil

[Orgfiller]

Yeah. It’s actually kind of a huge testament to the quality of the front office that they’ve assembled a winning team around the Vlad and Bo “core”. Basically a 90-win team assembled from FA signings and waiver claims.

 

Unfair to Bo who has been a perennial 4-5 win player since his debut. Vlad on the other hand has only been a true "core" like player for 1.5 seasons. Bichette will be fine, he's in a slump right now but I don't think anyone would be surprised to see him carry the offense singlehandedly for the next month, the bat control is too good.

[BTS]

Unfair to Bo who has been a perennial 4-5 win player since his debut. Vlad on the other hand has only been a true "core" like player for 1.5 seasons. Bichette will be fine, he's in a slump right now but I don't think anyone would be surprised to see him carry the offense singlehandedly for the next month, the bat control is too good.

 

Bo has been good, but my point was just that the FO has basically been rotating the deck chairs around a core that's basically just a single 4-win player, and doing a pretty good job of it. The "core" is basically just one guy at this point, with various external additions. And that one guy is likely gone in < 2 years.

[mphenhef]

Bo has been good, but my point was just that the FO has basically been rotating the deck chairs around a core that's basically just a single 4-win player, and doing a pretty good job of it. The "core" is basically just one guy at this point, with various external additions. And that one guy is likely gone in < 2 years.

 

It's been ten years. That's plenty of time to build your own core regardless of what was left for you. I mean Vlad debuted in pro ball after these guys took over and Bo was drafted (after these guys were convinced by scouts of the outgoing GM) in their first draft.

[Laika]

Yeah. It’s actually kind of a huge testament to the quality of the front office that they’ve assembled a winning team around the Vlad and Bo “core”. Basically a 90-win team assembled from FA signings and waiver claims.

 

Atkins "inherited" so little from AA and we are now at the point in time where it is completely fair to look back at the 2016 to 2023 period and judge the state of the organization when AA left, because all of those players who were in the org at the time of the handoff are now through their MLB player control or approaching final arb year.

 

At the MLB level there were so few tradeable assets:

 

Donaldson, but he f***ed his trade value by being a vegan

Osuna, but we all know what he did

Stroman

Hutchison

Sanchez

 

They rode Sanchez into the ground. You can critique the Stroman trade but then would also have to give them huge credit for spinning Hutch into Liriano into Teoscar, right. I may have missed one or two assets, relievers and such.

 

Virtually everybody else on the roster between 2015 and 2016 was worthless because bad or expensive veteran.

 

And then on the farm, the prospect lists looked like s***. The only possible 50 FV prospects were baby Vlad, Alford, SRF, Conner Greene, maybe Tellez? Borucki and Jansen were in the system, as was Romano. It looked very bad. Very gross. Guys like DJ Davis, Justin Maese, Max Pentecost were in the top 10s.

 

It was completely valid for Atkins and Shapiro to throw up in their mouths a bit and then prioritize total system repopulation in their subsequent drafts (successful or not...)

 

The rose coloured glasses way of looking at Atkins is that he was able to rebuild from that ^ situation remarkably quickly.

 

Gurriel, Teoscar, Kirk, Bichette, Biggio were all early Atkins signings or picks. Debate can be had about how much "AA people" were involved in those picks or signings. RA really only inherited Guerrero and Jansen and Romano as far as contributors from the good Atkins teams go. And Romano, not even sure he counts since he left and returned in the R5 process.

 

So yeah. Basically only inherited Vlad and Jansen. And in hindsight should have traded Vlad years ago.

 

All things considered one has to see this is a pretty successful rebuild. A couple bad years then playoffs again, repeatedly, in spite of your franchise player sucking most of the time?

[John_Havok]

Atkins "inherited" so little from AA and we are now at the point in time where it is completely fair to look back at the 2016 to 2023 period and judge the state of the organization when AA left, because all of those players who were in the org at the time of the handoff are now through their MLB player control or approaching final arb year.

 

At the MLB level there were so few tradeable assets:

 

Donaldson, but he f***ed his trade value by being a vegan

Osuna, but we all know what he did

Stroman

Hutchison

Sanchez

 

They rode Sanchez into the ground. You can critique the Stroman trade but then would also have to give them huge credit for spinning Hutch into Liriano into Teoscar, right. I may have missed one or two assets, relievers and such.

 

Virtually everybody else on the roster between 2015 and 2016 was worthless because bad or expensive veteran.

 

And then on the farm, the prospect lists looked like s***. The only possible 50 FV prospects were baby Vlad, Alford, SRF, Conner Greene, maybe Tellez? Borucki and Jansen were in the system, as was Romano. It looked very bad. Very gross. Guys like DJ Davis, Justin Maese, Max Pentecost were in the top 10s.

 

It was completely valid for Atkins and Shapiro to throw up in their mouths a bit and then prioritize total system repopulation in their subsequent drafts (successful or not...)

 

The rose coloured glasses way of looking at Atkins is that he was able to rebuild from that ^ situation remarkably quickly.

 

Gurriel, Teoscar, Kirk, Bichette, Biggio were all early Atkins signings or picks. Debate can be had about how much "AA people" were involved in those picks or signings. RA really only inherited Guerrero and Jansen and Romano as far as contributors from the good Atkins teams go. And Romano, not even sure he counts since he left and returned in the R5 process.

 

So yeah. Basically only inherited Vlad and Jansen. And in hindsight should have traded Vlad years ago.

 

All things considered one has to see this is a pretty successful rebuild. A couple bad years then playoffs again, repeatedly, in spite of your franchise player sucking most of the time?

 

I'm actually trying to picture the amounts of heads exploding if Vlad was traded after 2021. I can't even think of a comparable.

[G-Snarls]

I'm actually trying to picture the amounts of heads exploding if Vlad was traded after 2021. I can't even think of a comparable.

 

Was going to say the same

 

Would it have worked out well to trade him then knowing what we know now? Yes. But no GM trades a player who looked that good with that many years of control let at that point.

[BTS]

It's been ten years. That's plenty of time to build your own core regardless of what was left for you. I mean Vlad debuted in pro ball after these guys took over and Bo was drafted (after these guys were convinced by scouts of the outgoing GM) in their first draft.

 

Wasn't making the point as a springboard to attack AA. Not even necessarily to praise Atkins, because at this point the lack of controllable impact talent is on the current FO. But it's actually remarkable that they've won 91, 92, 89 games the last three years given how much of the roster had had to come from vets on FA contracts. And they've done it without really mortgaging the future with bad contracts.

 

All that to say, if there's a team in league that needs to find away to land an elite offensive player, it's this one.

[G-Snarls]

Wasn't making the point as a springboard to attack AA. Not even necessarily to praise Atkins, because at this point the lack of controllable impact talent is on the current FO. But it's actually remarkable that they've won 91, 92, 89 games the last three years given how much of the roster had had to come from vets on FA contracts. And they've done it without really mortgaging the future with bad contracts.

 

All that to say, if there's a team in league that needs to find away to land an elite offensive player, it's this one.

 

They went hard for Ohtani. How hard were they in on Soto and what would they have offered I wonder?

[The_DH]

I wanted Ohtani based on what we know. Probably one of the most in favour. But do we know how hard the Jays management truly went in?

I still think if he signed here, the betting scandal would go a little tougher.

[bluejaysinternNo5]

Nobody would have traded Vlad after 2021 but after his failure to repeat in 2022 you have to entertain the idea.

[Brownie19]

Nobody would have traded Vlad after 2021 but after his failure to repeat in 2022 you have to entertain the idea.

 

and sell low on him after an MVP 2021 season? Yeah - I'm sure that would have gone over well

[Krylian]

I wanted Ohtani based on what we know. Probably one of the most in favour. But do we know how hard the Jays management truly went in?

I still think if he signed here, the betting scandal would go a little tougher.

 

Well...if they said they went hard then they went hard. Why would they ever embellish something like that?

[glory]

Mitch White DFA, and Pearson optioned. Sucks for Pearson. Cabrera has options (I think) and there’s a good chance he stinks so aside from being a lefty I’m not sure he’s a better guy to have in the pen.

[Jays24]

[Jays24]

Jays really need to trade from a position of strength because Nate has 0 reason to be sent down.

 

Remarkable that our bullpen is in this position when Cimber and Richards were our best guys a few years ago lol.

[bluejaysinternNo5]

and sell low on him after an MVP 2021 season? Yeah - I'm sure that would have gone over well

 

It would have went well if they return was right (i.e. not trading him for 3 Varshos). Market it as subtracting an immature and inconsistent goober and adding multiple MLB starters with all star likelihood.

 

The Rays would have done it.

 

If you’re winning the fans have a short memory.

[bones10]

 

Was this really the best way to handle thing? Pearson has been lights out.

[Laika]

Optioning Pearson is revolting

 

Cabrera has an option...

[Orgfiller]

 

Massive news with Green and Garcia getting some work yesterday, not to mention them carrying our bullpen on their own. Hopefully we can put them into a lower leverage spot today to ease them back into things.

 

Sucks for Pearson, but he'll be back. Haven't quite seen "lights out" stuff from him aside from Sunday, but he looks like a viable middle leverage option. The writing was on the wall for Mitch White, not only has he been awful, the stuff has regressed from late last season/early Spring where it looked like he found some velo.

 

Agreed on Cabrera, he blows. Don't even trust him lefty-lefty, would rather a broken Mayza and changeup specialist Richards any day over him, especially in any sort of spot of significance.

[Olerud363]

LMAO I just noticed that Vlad has the highest hard hit % of his career, highest LD% of his career, and a .394 xwOBA vs .311 wOBA

 

He just defies explanation at this point. His Fangraphs page is a black hole of riddles and disappointment.

 

As bad as he looks in specific PAs and in the clutch, he still has a good K rate this year and a v good walk rate and we have seen several 105mph+ screaming grounders right at infielders in the last week or so.

 

Don Mattingly is not the guy to teach him this, but as you've pointed out repeatedly he'd be better off taking a strike (even a 3rd strike) on every pitch that he can't put in the air.

[Jays24]

Why wouldn't you send down Bowden and let him be ready to be our first starter to be called up in case of an injury. DFAing White was unnecessary when we might get desperate for some innings after an injury or two.

[Orgfiller]

Why wouldn't you send down Bowden and let him be ready to be our first starter to be called up in case of an injury. DFAing White was unnecessary when we might get desperate for some innings after an injury or two.

 

Bowden is effectively taking over White's spot. Long reliever and spot starter for 2-4 innings (usually topping out at 3 IP) most of the time. White has looked terrible, he'll likely get claimed but he's looking like a replacement level stretch arm at this point.