General Blue Jays Discussion Thread (2024)

[Laika]

Is his stuff actually grading well or is this a meme?

 

I was genuinely surprised to see him hit 96 with a tight slider that apparently he's totally changed the shape of in the offseason. I was fully expecting him to be a junkballer sitting 90-91 and throwing the kitchen sink at hitters.

 

meme but not a meme

 

that tjstuff+ guy has his breaking ball as slightly above average and the fastball as a solid 98, giving him a respectable 99 tjStuff+

 

better than many decent MLB starters!

 

I would guess that the command is below average though. Judging from the bb/9 in AAA and Korea. Also not sure if he has a usable third pitch.

 

WES PARSONS!!!!!!!!!!

[John_Havok]

It is truly amazing how much change/improvement pitchers are able to achieve in the offseason these days. It's getting a lot harder to conclude that someone is "s***" as you never know what a new training regime, arm slot or lab is going to be able to do with them. It's almost alarming they haven't yet been able to fix Manoah or Pearson - but then again, the team isn't allowed to force them to train with them in the offseason.

 

Its almost like that pitching lab is ... doing stuff.

 

But as with anything, there's no system that can be the magic pill for everyone, as a hitter or pitcher. Not everyone can just "get your front foot down earlier and pull it" and become Jose Bautista. All of that stuff is highly individualized, though some general truths clearly exist.

 

I can't remember what I was listening to or what teams they were talking about but the contention was that a ton of the scouts out there over the past 10 years or so are out there not just looking at the basics, but recruiting guys with very specific physical attributes and then the team teaches them the pitches that work the best from those attributes. Not just a "big and strong" prototype anymore. If we get X guy with X attributes, we'll make sure he learns X pitch type.

[hanton]

Its almost like that pitching lab is ... doing stuff.

 

But as with anything, there's no system that can be the magic pill for everyone, as a hitter or pitcher. Not everyone can just "get your front foot down earlier and pull it" and become Jose Bautista. All of that stuff is highly individualized, though some general truths clearly exist.

 

I can't remember what I was listening to or what teams they were talking about but the contention was that a ton of the scouts out there over the past 10 years or so are out there not just looking at the basics, but recruiting guys with very specific physical attributes and then the team teaches them the pitches that work the best from those attributes. Not just a "big and strong" prototype anymore. If we get X guy with X attributes, we'll make sure he learns X pitch type.

 

that sounds like it could be the Dodgers, their pitchers all look the same and even some of the hitters; they just picked up SS Noah Miller in a recent trade from the Twins - his swing reminds me of many of the players they developed - almost identical to Chris Taylor's swing.

[Laika]

Bowden Francis is ready

 

[Terminator]

Bowden Francis is ready

 

Those grades on his stuff look great.

 

Excellent fastball, two good secondaries and a serviceable show-me pitch to complete the arsenal will play even if his control isn't great.

 

Poor Alek Manoah going to gain all that weight back eating chicken wings in Buffalo.

[Laika]

Those grades on his stuff look great.

 

Excellent fastball, two good secondaries and a serviceable show-me pitch to complete the arsenal will play even if his control isn't great.

 

Poor Alek Manoah going to gain all that weight back eating chicken wings in Buffalo.

 

The fastball is a weapon. And his control was solid last year.

 

If he has improved the breaking ball(s) a bit, and added a splitter he can mix in even 10% of the time... he begins to look like a real SP. Bit of a Joe Ryan package.

[hanton]

Good outing by Bowden Francis, good command of the FB, the hammer is ok, if only he had another quality pitch; definitely deserves a shot as the 5th starter

[Terminator]

The fastball is a weapon. And his control was solid last year.

 

If he has improved the breaking ball(s) a bit, and added a splitter he can mix in even 10% of the time... he begins to look like a real SP. Bit of a Joe Ryan package.

 

Going to be a battle to the end between him and Wes Parsons for the final rotation spot. Can’t forget Mitch White either. (forget Manoah)

[John_Havok]

Got the nasty version of Pearson today too.

 

12 pitches, 9 4-seamers and 1 each of the curve, slider and splitter/changeup.

 

Avg 98.5 with the heater 5 swings and 3 misses. 2 Ks and soft contact out.

[gruber92]

Those grades on his stuff look great.

 

Excellent fastball, two good secondaries and a serviceable show-me pitch to complete the arsenal will play even if his control isn't great.

 

Poor Alek Manoah going to gain all that weight back eating chicken wings in Buffalo.

 

Looks like karma is in the process of swallowing Manoah, I couldn't be happier for the douchebag.

[wamco]

Heyman says jays offered Chapman a contract late in process before signing with SF. Odd that we would do that with Chapman supposedly telling atkins he wasn’t signing here very early in the process. I always doubted that since I don’t think he would definitely rule out coming back and even if he did, I doubt he would lose his leverage by doing so. If we went out and got an urshela type , it would be obvious we were out.

I think Atkins knew there was still a chance to get him back and his moves of IKF, Escobar and lesser extent Turner were simply hedges in case we couldn’t get Chapman back. If we got him, IKF becomes back up and expendable players could be moved to offset some of the salary. Market ended up cratering tho and those players may not have been able to be moved in which case, it would seem, there is indeed more money to spend.

 

Would have been an interesting alternate offseason if Atkins were able to start by selling Garcia, espinal, Richards, and biggio and waited and waited and waited on the market for steals.

[Laika]

Pearson's velo was up yesterday but the ride was a bit worse

 

His fastball still didn't grade out as an elite pitch despite being 98.5

 

I think if he has a stretch of good health and results I'd be trading him to a dumb team

[mphenhef]

Heyman says jays offered Chapman a contract late in process before signing with SF. Odd that we would do that with Chapman supposedly telling atkins he wasn’t signing here very early in the process. I always doubted that since I don’t think he would definitely rule out coming back and even if he did, I doubt he would lose his leverage by doing so. If we went out and got an urshela type , it would be obvious we were out.

I think Atkins knew there was still a chance to get him back and his moves of IKF, Escobar and lesser extent Turner were simply hedges in case we couldn’t get Chapman back. If we got him, IKF becomes back up and expendable players could be moved to offset some of the salary. Market ended up cratering tho and those players may not have been able to be moved in which case, it would seem, there is indeed more money to spend.

 

Would have been an interesting alternate offseason if Atkins were able to start by selling Garcia, espinal, Richards, and biggio and waited and waited and waited on the market for steals.

 

I'm not sure I would trust anything Heyman says.

[saskjayfan]

Pearson's velo was up yesterday but the ride was a bit worse

 

His fastball still didn't grade out as an elite pitch despite being 98.5

 

I think if he has a stretch of good health and results I'd be trading him to a dumb team

 

He got 3 swing and misses on 9 fastballs. That doesn't seem bad..lol. What are you going to get for him? Nothing. He still throws upper 90s and is working on adding secondary offerings. Putting him in Buffalo seems like the appropriate step.

[Eat My Shatkins]

How has Zach Pops stuff looked?

[John_Havok]

How has Zach Pops stuff looked?

 

Visually, the stuff is good as it always has been. He still can't get it where he wants/needs it consistently.

[Laika]

He got 3 swing and misses on 9 fastballs. That doesn't seem bad..lol. What are you going to get for him? Nothing. He still throws upper 90s and is working on adding secondary offerings. Putting him in Buffalo seems like the appropriate step.

 

I think a dumb team would trade some kind of decent piece for him IF he strings together some health and ostensible effectiveness.

 

Yesterday Nate Pearson faced Wenceel Perez, Ryan Vilade, and Keston Hirua. The results/whiffs are kind of irrelevant.

 

Spin rates this spring are down on his slider and fastball. IVB down like 1.5 points on his fastball... movement down on his slider.

 

gulp.

[John_Havok]

I'm not sure I would trust anything Heyman says.

 

Yeah, and even if they did offer him a deal late, it doesn't exclude the likelihood of Chapman saying he wasn't all that interested in returning early on. Feelings can change when you know you turned down 6/120, and 4 months later you find yourself wondering why you haven't received any offers at all even close to what you thought you should get.

[Laika]

How has Zach Pops stuff looked?

 

Good. Fastball the same as last year, slider the spin rate and horizontal movement are up a bit vs 2023 and the drop is a bit less. Wonder if he reshaped it into more of a sweeper. Or at least something approximating a sweeper.

[John_Havok]

Here's a decent article on spin rates overall, and has a nice visual on spin rates and fastballs etc. Its from 2018 but it's still all good info

 

https://www.blessyouboys.com/2018/5/15/17355934/a-basic-look-at-spin-rate-and-what-it-means-for-pitches

[Brownie19]

Looks like karma is in the process of swallowing Manoah, I couldn't be happier for the douchebag.

 

Why do you think he's a douchbag?

[John_Havok]

Good. Fastball the same as last year, slider the spin rate and horizontal movement are up a bit vs 2023 and the drop is a bit less. Wonder if he reshaped it into more of a sweeper. Or at least something approximating a sweeper.

 

The velo on the slider is way up too, which may or may not be a good thing. Last outing it was 90-91 avg velo.

[Brownie19]

Heyman says jays offered Chapman a contract late in process before signing with SF. Odd that we would do that with Chapman supposedly telling atkins he wasn’t signing here very early in the process. I always doubted that since I don’t think he would definitely rule out coming back and even if he did, I doubt he would lose his leverage by doing so. If we went out and got an urshela type , it would be obvious we were out.

I think Atkins knew there was still a chance to get him back and his moves of IKF, Escobar and lesser extent Turner were simply hedges in case we couldn’t get Chapman back. If we got him, IKF becomes back up and expendable players could be moved to offset some of the salary. Market ended up cratering tho and those players may not have been able to be moved in which case, it would seem, there is indeed more money to spend.

 

Would have been an interesting alternate offseason if Atkins were able to start by selling Garcia, espinal, Richards, and biggio and waited and waited and waited on the market for steals.

 

I would disagree with this and certainly wouldn't use it as a reason to believe the reports that Chapman told the Jays he didn't want to sign with them were false. You could speculate all you want that Chapman wouldn't tell the Jays that because he would lose leverage and all that - but you can't exclude the possibility that someone acted as a respectable human - instead of trying to squeeze every dollar possible out of the system.

 

As was noted - things changed. It seems completely plausible that Atkins would touch base with Chapman late in the process to see if his position or mind had changed at all.

[Laika]

The velo on the slider is way up too, which may or may not be a good thing. Last outing it was 90-91 avg velo.

 

hmmmm

 

from what I am seeing that's actually a cutter! he didn't throw it in 2023

 

so, new pitch alert

 

slider velo is the same as 2023

[Brownie19]

Well he almost hit someone in the face so there's that.

 

The Nolan Ryan approach. I like it.

[John_Havok]

hmmmm

 

from what I am seeing that's actually a cutter! he didn't throw it in 2023

 

so, new pitch alert

 

slider velo is the same as 2023

 

New pitch? or ... poorly thrown slider. Lets go with new pitch for now.

[Brownie19]

Except Zach Pop would get his ass kicked if someone charged the mound.

 

Zach Pop is 6'4" 220 lbs.

[Carlos Danger]

Zach Pop is 6'4" 220 lbs.

 

Plus he is Canadian eh. He would probably pull the guy’s jersey over his head and give him the old Loonie, Twonny uppercut while taking brief breaks for poutine.

[Carlos Danger]

Sounds lanky to me.

 

If you like a man with girth over length, call me.

[Carlos Danger]

I know it is only spring training. But please rock that little s*** Stroman today and every-time we face him subsequently.