GDT: 2/3 Chicago Cubs @ Toronto Blue Jays (Saturday 3:07 ET) Jose Bautista day!!!

[Daniel Labude]

Hicks really wanted to be apart of the blowpen

[DigitalRock]

This may be the best worst Jays team in recent memory. They are not fun to watch at all despite having a very good record.

 

Don’t know what it is but one of the most frustrating teams I’ve ever watched lol

[Masterbather]

Hicks really wanted to be apart of the blowpen

 

As I said when he was traded here, incredible arm, but he does give up base runners, he's a butt clenching type of pitcher.

[Masterbather]

Don’t know what it is but one of the most frustrating teams I’ve ever watched lol

 

This team has gotten progressively worse in each of the last two years. 2021 was the year, but they were not aggressive enough in getting us more pitching, especially in the bullpen and especially earlier in the season.

[EdwinsParrot]

saddest 11 game over .500 team ive ever seen

[glory]

This may be the best worst Jays team in recent memory. They are not fun to watch at all despite having a very good record.

 

Agreed. They play a boring brand of baseball, which is fine when they win, but unwatchable when they are struggling. Improving the defense came at a massive price, both in offensive production and entertainment value.

[JFD]

My house Myyyy house

[jaysblue]

This team has gotten progressively worse in each of the last two years. 2021 was the year, but they were not aggressive enough in getting us more pitching, especially in the bullpen and especially earlier in the season.

 

The 2021 team was probably the best window/opportunity to go on a deep run in the Postseason. Atkins failed to address the bullpen at the trade deadline, and it cost them by missing out by one game. Not sure if we'll see a better team in 2024 and 2025.

[Terminator]

The 2021 team was probably the best window/opportunity to go on a deep run in the Postseason. Atkins failed to address the bullpen at the trade deadline, and it cost them by missing out by one game. Not sure if we'll see a better team in 2024 and 2025.

 

At the risk of being labeled a "poster", "Atkins apologist" and "homer", didn't Atkins trade for Adam Cimber that year who went on to post a 1.69 ERA in over 37 innings? Seems like that should count toward addressing the bullpen?

[BigCecil]

Hicks has not been impressive thus far.

 

Exactly what I expected. Big V and good not great stuff. Command issues. He is a really nice piece but he isn’t a lights out pen arm. That game sucked badly. What was Vlad trying to steal for with 2 out and Chappy up who could score him on a double?

[jaysblue]

At the risk of being labeled a "poster", "Atkins apologist" and "homer", didn't Atkins trade for Adam Cimber that year who went on to post a 1.69 ERA in over 37 innings? Seems like that should count toward addressing the bullpen?

 

Cimber wasn't an elite BP arm with huge K rates which is what they needed. He was and still is just a middle reliever. He's a nice piece, but nothing game changing.

 

Also forgot to mention Brad Hand who cost the Jays how many games?

[Spanky99]

Cimber wasn't an elite BP arm with huge K rates which is what they needed. He was and still is just a middle reliever. He's a nice piece, but nothing game changing.

 

Also forgot to mention Brad Hand who cost the Jays how many games?

 

I'm convinced he didn't like the Jays... 8.2 innings of shyte, he wasn't even bad for the Nats and Mets at the time of the trade, and then he went to the Phillies and did well again, in high leverage work.

 

Also, you can't deny how important Cimber has been the last 2 years, this year notwithstanding.

[jaysblue]

I'm convinced he didn't like the Jays... 8.2 innings of shyte, he wasn't even bad for the Nats and Mets at the time of the trade, and then he went to the Phillies and did well again, in high leverage work.

 

Also, you can't deny how important Cimber has been the last 2 years, this year notwithstanding.

 

Yeah Cimber was definitely solid in 2021 and 2022 for us. Nothing against him at all. Just wasn't the type of high leverage arm this team needed at the time. Cimber is a nice 6th/7th inning guy, nothing more.

 

Hand never worked out unfortunately. There were some warning signs of decline before the Jays acquired him, but yeah. That 2021 team was really good and it's a shame they never were able to play in the Postseason. Really think they could have done some damage.

[Omar]

[Brownie19]

Yeah Cimber was definitely solid in 2021 and 2022 for us. Nothing against him at all. Just wasn't the type of high leverage arm this team needed at the time. Cimber is a nice 6th/7th inning guy, nothing more.

 

Hand never worked out unfortunately. There were some warning signs of decline before the Jays acquired him, but yeah. That 2021 team was really good and it's a shame they never were able to play in the Postseason. Really think they could have done some damage.

 

I don't expect you to comprehend this, but 'blaming' Atkins for trading absolutely nothing to add Brad Hand wasn't a bad move at all. You can s*** all over the results if you want, but the fact Hand went on to pitch well for the Mets after the Jays released him (2.70 ERA, 9.5 K/9) tells you all you need to know about statistical anomalies and the volatility of bullpen arms. That is completely out of the GM's control and thus it's really shortsighted to blame anyone for Brad Hand sucking. Now if you want to suggest he should have traded for 'more' bullpen help, or better bullpen help - sure. Go ahead and speculate over who was available and what it would have cost us and give your opinion he should have done more.

 

As for Hicks, he was coming off a couple of the best months of his career (xFIP around 3) prior to the trade. In the 2 months leading up to the trade, he was 10th in FIP and 18th in xFIP, 17th in WAR, 3rd in velocity for relivers. He was pitching great and he was the best RP traded at the deadline. If he completely shits the bed for the Jays, it's going to be pretty tough argument to suggest that Atkins f***ed up.

[jaysblue]

I don't expect you to comprehend this, but 'blaming' Atkins for trading absolutely nothing to add Brad Hand wasn't a bad move at all. You can s*** all over the results if you want, but the fact Hand went on to pitch well for the Mets after the Jays released him (2.70 ERA, 9.5 K/9) tells you all you need to know about statistical anomalies and the volatility of bullpen arms. That is completely out of the GM's control and thus it's really shortsighted to blame anyone for Brad Hand sucking. Now if you want to suggest he should have traded for 'more' bullpen help, or better bullpen help - sure. Go ahead and speculate over who was available and what it would have cost us and give your opinion he should have done more.

 

As for Hicks, he was coming off a couple of the best months of his career (xFIP around 3) prior to the trade. In the 2 months leading up to the trade, he was 10th in FIP and 18th in xFIP, 17th in WAR, 3rd in velocity for relivers. He was pitching great and he was the best RP traded at the deadline. If he completely shits the bed for the Jays, it's going to be pretty tough argument to suggest that Atkins f***ed up.

 

Lmao of course you defend the Brad Hand acquisition in 2021.

 

The issue wasn't acquiring Brad Hand for nothing. Hand already showed signs of decline beforehand, which is why they got him for nothing in the first place. His FIP and other peripherals showed he wasn't the same top BP arm he was from before. The issue was rolling with him as long as they did thinking he was an elite reliever from his prime days. They put him in many high leverage spots which cost them games and cost them the Postseason by ONE game! It's frustrating because that 2021 team likely was the best team on paper Atkins put together that could have went on a deep Postseason run with that fearful lineup and excellent starting rotation.

 

I never criticized the Hicks trade. I actually liked the trade. Sure Hicks can be wild and can implode as he has shown in the past. If he shows signs of that, you push him back out of high leverage situations. You don't keep running him out there in the 8th or 9th innings of a one-run game then.

[Brownie19]

Lmao of course you defend the Brad Hand acquisition in 2021.

 

The issue wasn't acquiring Brad Hand for nothing. Hand already showed signs of decline beforehand, which is why they got him for nothing in the first place. His FIP and other peripherals showed he wasn't the same top BP arm he was from before. The issue was rolling with him as long as they did thinking he was an elite reliever from his prime days. They put him in many high leverage spots which cost them games and cost them the Postseason by ONE game! It's frustrating because that 2021 team likely was the best team on paper Atkins put together that could have went on a deep Postseason run with that fearful lineup and excellent starting rotation.

 

I never criticized the Hicks trade. I actually liked the trade. Sure Hicks can be wild and can implode as he has shown in the past. If he shows signs of that, you push him back out of high leverage situations. You don't keep running him out there in the 8th or 9th innings of a one-run game then.

 

Hand threw 8.2 innings for the Jays man. I completely agree his peripherals weren't great that year, but he did have 21 saves at the time, a proven track record and a history of outperforming his xFIP. The issue is - when do you pull the plug on a RP in high leverage situations? After 3 bad games in a row? 5? 1?

 

You play Manager/GM because you're so smart. Hicks has pitched in 5.2 innings for the Jays so far and he's been s*** (4.76 ERA, 4.95 xFIP, 4.7 K/9). Are you pulling him out of high leverage situations right now like you wanted Charlie/Atkins to with Hand?

 

Very difficult to know if a crappy SSS trend will continue, or if the RP will throw 15 straight scoreless innings...

[jaysblue]

Hand threw 8.2 innings for the Jays man. I completely agree his peripherals weren't great that year, but he did have 21 saves at the time, a proven track record and a history of outperforming his xFIP. The issue is - when do you pull the plug on a RP in high leverage situations? After 3 bad games in a row? 5? 1?

 

You play Manager/GM because you're so smart. Hicks has pitched in 5.2 innings for the Jays so far and he's been s*** (4.76 ERA, 4.95 xFIP, 4.7 K/9). Are you pulling him out of high leverage situations right now like you wanted Charlie/Atkins to with Hand?

 

Very difficult to know if a crappy SSS trend will continue, or if the RP will throw 15 straight scoreless innings...

 

Isn't that the job of the front office to know that his peripherals weren't as strong as in the past, so there could be a chance he implodes? There is a reason why Hand cost nothing to acquire in the first place. Given the roster they had that season, it would have been better to aim higher on a true elite late inning reliever. It's frustrating because that 2021 window was probably the best one the Jays had.

 

Hicks hasn't been as sharp so far with the Jays. He's obviously still going to be used as the closer until Romano gets back. If he doesn't show signs of improvement, then yes he moves down the depth charts behind other guys like Swanson, Mayza, and Green (once and if he comes back). I have no issue at all with them trading for Hicks. He can be erratic at times as he has shown during his time with the Cardinals. Same thing happened earlier this season - Hicks started off awful, the Cards moved him into lower leverage spots to work on some things and he rebounded.

[Brownie19]

Isn't that the job of the front office to know that his peripherals weren't as strong as in the past, so there could be a chance he implodes? There is a reason why Hand cost nothing to acquire in the first place. Given the roster they had that season, it would have been better to aim higher on a true elite late inning reliever. It's frustrating because that 2021 window was probably the best one the Jays had.

 

Hicks hasn't been as sharp so far with the Jays. He's obviously still going to be used as the closer until Romano gets back. If he doesn't show signs of improvement, then yes he moves down the depth charts behind other guys like Swanson, Mayza, and Green (once and if he comes back). I have no issue at all with them trading for Hicks. He can be erratic at times as he has shown during his time with the Cardinals. Same thing happened earlier this season - Hicks started off awful, the Cards moved him into lower leverage spots to work on some things and he rebounded.

 

Of course there was and of course they knew that. That's why they cut him after 8.2 innings and moved on. There was also a chance he came in an pitched better - like he did with the Mets after the Jays cut him. They took a flyer on him and it was a disaster - one bigger than I think anyone would have predicted. Was the Mets GM brilliant for bringing in Hand, who pitched great for them? Obviously not, he took a flyer and it worked out great. The results are generally outside of the GM's control, especially with such small sample sizes, which is why blaming him is stupid. That's my point. The Hand situation is a perfect example of why blaming the GM is stupid.

 

Could Atkins have added a RP with a higher chance of success at the deadline, it would have cost a lot more. Cubs had to give up a 4th overall pick to get Kimbrel at the deadline. Jays already moved 2 big prospects to get Berrios at the deadline and obviously opted to add some veterans arms for a cheaper price, hoping to catch lightning in the bottle...and maybe we would have if we kept Hand and just stuck it out, as he immediately started pitching better as soon as they cut him. Maybe their decision to cut him actually cost the Jays that 1 missing win that kept them out of the playoffs...

 

Sometimes nobody is to blame - sometimes it's just baseball and you can't guarantee things will break you way. That's life.

Edited August 14, 2023 by Brownie19

[metafour]

Of course there was and of course they knew that. That's why they cut him after 8.2 innings and moved on. There was also a chance he came in an pitched better - like he did with the Mets after the Jays cut him. They took a flyer on him and it was a disaster - one bigger than I think anyone would have predicted. Was the Mets GM brilliant for bringing in Hand, who pitched great for them? Obviously not, he took a flyer and it worked out great. The results are generally outside of the GM's control, especially with such small sample sizes, which is why blaming him is stupid. That's my point. The Hand situation is a perfect example of why blaming the GM is stupid.

 

Could Atkins have added a RP with a higher chance of success at the deadline, it would have cost a lot more. Cubs had to give up a 4th overall pick to get Kimbrel at the deadline. Jays already moved 2 big prospects to get Berrios at the deadline and obviously opted to add some veterans arms for a cheaper price, hoping to catch lightning in the bottle...and maybe we would have if we kept Hand and just stuck it out, as he immediately started pitching better as soon as they cut him. Maybe their decision to cut him actually cost the Jays that 1 missing win that kept them out of the playoffs...

 

Sometime nobody is to blame - sometimes it's just baseball and you can't guarantee things will break you way. That's life.

 

The element of luck is vastly underrated.

 

When the Jays traded Happ for Drury, the underlying metrics on Drury were all positive. Yet he was horrible to the point wherein they couldn't even play him any longer. He immediately started hitting with the Mets and has been a 2-3 fWAR player the past two seasons when healthy. Even Billy McKinney is posting a 109 wRC+ season as a reserve for the Yankees.

 

So they clearly weren't wrong in their targeting of those player(s). But the timing simply didn't materialize in their favour, and therefore the return looks horrible.

[jaysblue]

Of course there was and of course they knew that. That's why they cut him after 8.2 innings and moved on. There was also a chance he came in an pitched better - like he did with the Mets after the Jays cut him. They took a flyer on him and it was a disaster - one bigger than I think anyone would have predicted. Was the Mets GM brilliant for bringing in Hand, who pitched great for them? Obviously not, he took a flyer and it worked out great. The results are generally outside of the GM's control, especially with such small sample sizes, which is why blaming him is stupid. That's my point. The Hand situation is a perfect example of why blaming the GM is stupid.

 

Could Atkins have added a RP with a higher chance of success at the deadline, it would have cost a lot more. Cubs had to give up a 4th overall pick to get Kimbrel at the deadline. Jays already moved 2 big prospects to get Berrios at the deadline and obviously opted to add some veterans arms for a cheaper price, hoping to catch lightning in the bottle...and maybe we would have if we kept Hand and just stuck it out, as he immediately started pitching better as soon as they cut him. Maybe their decision to cut him actually cost the Jays that 1 missing win that kept them out of the playoffs...

 

Sometimes nobody is to blame - sometimes it's just baseball and you can't guarantee things will break you way. That's life.

 

You really love defending Atkins and this front office at all costs haha.

 

We might never see a better opportunity for the Blue Jays to go on a deep Postseason run. It would have been great to see what that 2021 team could have done in the Postseason given their lineup and rotation. We're already starting to see the window for Jays get smaller - Chapman is a FA after 2023 and will be tough to replace, Vladdy isn't the same Vladdy from 2021, Bo is a FA after 2025, Gausman, Berrios, Bassitt will all be a year older, Springer is showing signs he's slowing down, Kirk not living up to his expectations with the bat, etc.

 

Right now, it even looks like making the third WC spot is going to be a battle until the last couple days of the season. Let's hope the Jays could get in and things start to click in October where they could go on a deep run. Anything could happen.

 

So if we go by this logic all the time, I guess we can apply that with AA during his time with the Blue Jays as well. You always give Atkins a free pass when something doesn't work out, so we can do the same with AA haha.

[Brownie19]

You really love defending Atkins and this front office at all costs haha.

 

We might never see a better opportunity for the Blue Jays to go on a deep Postseason run. It would have been great to see what that 2021 team could have done in the Postseason given their lineup and rotation. We're already starting to see the window for Jays get smaller - Chapman is a FA after 2023 and will be tough to replace, Vladdy isn't the same Vladdy from 2021, Bo is a FA after 2025, Gausman, Berrios, Bassitt will all be a year older, Springer is showing signs he's slowing down, Kirk not living up to his expectations with the bat, etc.

 

Right now, it even looks like making the third WC spot is going to be a battle until the last couple days of the season. Let's hope the Jays could get in and things start to click in October where they could go on a deep run. Anything could happen.

 

So if we go by this logic all the time, I guess we can apply that with AA during his time with the Blue Jays as well. You always give Atkins a free pass when something doesn't work out, so we can do the same with AA haha.

 

This isn't true. The difference is I'm able to see and understand the logic in their decisions and can accept that results don't define whether the move was a good one or not. A bad decision and a bad result are mutually exclusive. A GM can make several moves that make 100% sense, even if the results all turn out to be awful. The GM can control the probability of success, but they can't control the results.

 

Hand and our current version of Hicks are GREAT examples of this.

 

Should we have sold the farm to 'go for it' in 2021? Perhaps, but I must say that at the time, it looked like we we building a sustainable winner and I'd rather have a sustainable winner than a 1 and done team - so I was supportive of adding cheaper options in the pen and trying to find lightning in a bottle. Hicks is a good example of how added the "big name guy" and paying the price doesn't aways work out either. Bullpens are so unpredictable, that I generally support the idea of throwing a ton of s*** against the wall and hoping it sticks (like we just did with Cabrera).

 

Should Atkins have known in 2021 that it would have been their "best" chance to go for it? I don't think that's reasonable. Do you think he ought to have known that Vlad would fall back to a replacement level player? That Kirk would regress to a slapdick hitter? That Manoah would eat himself out of the majors? I don't think that's a reasonable expectation and it's really unfortunate that these things have all happened to 3 players who should be leading this team to a division title right now. I don't blame Atkins for that. Nobody should IMO.

Edited August 14, 2023 by Brownie19

[Laika]

what the f*** are you guys even talking about

 

they DID go for it in 2021. They traded two top prospects for Berrios!

 

getting too aggressive for a reliever is how you end up doing dumb s*** like trading Bryan De La Cruz for a month of Yimi Garcia. The Astros literally did that in 2021 lmao.

[Stangstag]

You really love defending Atkins and this front office at all costs haha.

 

We might never see a better opportunity for the Blue Jays to go on a deep Postseason run. It would have been great to see what that 2021 team could have done in the Postseason given their lineup and rotation. We're already starting to see the window for Jays get smaller - Chapman is a FA after 2023 and will be tough to replace, Vladdy isn't the same Vladdy from 2021, Bo is a FA after 2025, Gausman, Berrios, Bassitt will all be a year older, Springer is showing signs he's slowing down, Kirk not living up to his expectations with the bat, etc.

 

Right now, it even looks like making the third WC spot is going to be a battle until the last couple days of the season. Let's hope the Jays could get in and things start to click in October where they could go on a deep run. Anything could happen.

 

So if we go by this logic all the time, I guess we can apply that with AA during his time with the Blue Jays as well. You always give Atkins a free pass when something doesn't work out, so we can do the same with AA haha.

 

You’re insufferable

[jaysblue]

You’re insufferable

 

You're insufferable when you use the excuse that everyone is cheating like to explain why the Rays were having success or why someone threw a no-hitter lol.

[jaysblue]

This isn't true. The difference is I'm able to see and understand the logic in their decisions and can accept that results don't define whether the move was a good one or not. A bad decision and a bad result are mutually exclusive. A GM can make several moves that make 100% sense, even if the results all turn out to be awful. The GM can control the probability of success, but they can't control the results.

 

Hand and our current version of Hicks are GREAT examples of this.

 

Should we have sold the farm to 'go for it' in 2021? Perhaps, but I must say that at the time, it looked like we we building a sustainable winner and I'd rather have a sustainable winner than a 1 and done team - so I was supportive of adding cheaper options in the pen and trying to find lightning in a bottle. Hicks is a good example of how added the "big name guy" and paying the price doesn't aways work out either. Bullpens are so unpredictable, that I generally support the idea of throwing a ton of s*** against the wall and hoping it sticks (like we just did with Cabrera).

 

Should Atkins have known in 2021 that it would have been their "best" chance to go for it? I don't think that's reasonable. Do you think he ought to have known that Vlad would fall back to a replacement level player? That Kirk would regress to a slapdick hitter? That Manoah would eat himself out of the majors? I don't think that's a reasonable expectation and it's really unfortunate that these things have all happened to 3 players who should be leading this team to a division title right now. I don't blame Atkins for that. Nobody should IMO.

 

You just keeping proving my point lol.

 

In baseball, things could change quickly. You can't pass up on an opportunity when it arises. Sure sometimes it could work and sometimes it might not. With the 2021 team, you had breakouts from Vlad and Bo, Springer was still solid and two years younger than he is now, Manoah had a breakout season, Semien had a huge bounceback, Ray won the AL Cy Young, Teo had a monster year offensively, you traded for Berrios and I could go on. Wasted opportunity. Like I just pointed out, Kirk has turned into a pumpkin, Manoah s*** the bed, Springer is starting to show his age, Vladdy regressed significantly. We're in 2023 now, which is only TWO years from their 2021 season. I'll even use the example with guys like Gausman, who right now is pitching at an elite level and is one of the best SPs in the game. Can he continue pitching at this high level moving forward? Hopefully he does, but who knows maybe he's a bit off in 2024 or 2025 like has a 4 ERA or is maybe only worth 3 WAR instead of 6 WAR. You need to take advantage of the present when you have these core pieces in place, healthy, in their prime and when they're performing at their highest level. Every season that goes by where the Jays don't win a World Series, that window becomes smaller and smaller.

[jaysblue]

what the f*** are you guys even talking about

 

they DID go for it in 2021. They traded two top prospects for Berrios!

 

getting too aggressive for a reliever is how you end up doing dumb s*** like trading Bryan De La Cruz for a month of Yimi Garcia. The Astros literally did that in 2021 lmao.

 

They definitely failed because they didn't even make the Postseason in 2021.

[Brownie19]

I don't expect you to comprehend this, but 'blaming' Atkins for trading absolutely nothing to add Brad Hand wasn't a bad move at all. You can s*** all over the results if you want, but the fact Hand went on to pitch well for the Mets after the Jays released him (2.70 ERA, 9.5 K/9) tells you all you need to know about statistical anomalies and the volatility of bullpen arms. That is completely out of the GM's control and thus it's really shortsighted to blame anyone for Brad Hand sucking. Now if you want to suggest he should have traded for 'more' bullpen help, or better bullpen help - sure. Go ahead and speculate over who was available and what it would have cost us and give your opinion he should have done more.

 

As for Hicks, he was coming off a couple of the best months of his career (xFIP around 3) prior to the trade. In the 2 months leading up to the trade, he was 10th in FIP and 18th in xFIP, 17th in WAR, 3rd in velocity for relivers. He was pitching great and he was the best RP traded at the deadline. If he completely shits the bed for the Jays, it's going to be pretty tough argument to suggest that Atkins f***ed up.

 

Boy was I right. I'm out of this convo.

[jaysblue]

Boy was I right. I'm out of this convo.

 

You're one of the most stubborn and insufferable posters on this message board. In all of my history on this board, never came across anyone as insufferable as you, and you're not even a troll. Any criticism I make, you get triggered so easily. Can't even have a reasonable conversation with you because you're always wearing blinders and come up with excuses nonstop. Atkins can do no wrong in your view no matter what he does. Arguing with you is pointless because these discussions go nowhere. I'm done with you, Metafour, MaxSilver, and Stangstag when it comes to Atkins and this front office. You guys should keep sipping on your Wilner kool aid!

[max silver]

You're one of the most stubborn and insufferable posters on this message board. In all of my history on this board, never came across anyone as insufferable as you, and you're not even a troll. Any criticism I make, you get triggered so easily. Can't even have a reasonable conversation with you because you're always wearing blinders and come up with excuses nonstop. Atkins can do no wrong in your view no matter what he does. Arguing with you is pointless because these discussions go nowhere. I'm done with you, Metafour, MaxSilver, and Stangstag when it comes to Atkins and this front office. You guys should keep sipping on your Wilner kool aid!

 

If that means you'll stop looking to pick fights at every possible opportunity then thank you very much. You aren't looking for reasonable conversation, you are obviously looking to post a bunch of "gotcha" hindsight posts attempting to pump your own tires. If anyone dares to disagree with your points then you instantly start with the name calling. I'd be happy to have a reasonable conversation but it's apparent that's not what you are looking for.