General Blue Jays Discussion Thread (2023)

[RobinThicc]

Atkins is the best if he locks in Ohtani

[Stangstag]

The shills on this board will always think Atkins is the best no matter what.

 

In reality, he's been solid but definitely can improve in some areas. He isn't one of the best GM's in baseball. He's done a solid job here, but it hasn't been enough and we're already going into 2024 with zero Postseason wins with this group and an aging team that beyond 2025 looks very questionable without a pipeline of young elite players ready to step in. Sure an 88-90 win team is nice, but geez it's the expanded era so definitely easier to make the Postseason every year. The issue with Atkins is he hasn't been able to take this team to the next level.

 

What do the AA shills say?? That Aaron Bummer was a great trade?

[Terminator]

Who has said Atkins is "the best" for f*** sakes? lol

 

You Atkins whiners like to build strawmen that's for sure.

 

Yeah arguing against strawmen is his schtick.

 

Every other post has some sort of strawman argument. Then he posts the same tired critiques against that strawman like he's making some sort of winning argument.

 

The reality is that almost everyone here agrees that Atkins isn't the best GM and that there are definitely areas can improve in. These aren't novel arguments, as I said almost everyone here agrees with benign opinions like that. But because he wants to be a contrarian Debbie Downer he has to create strawmen in order to even be able to post his whiny garbage.

[burlingtonbandit]

It feels like Shapiro gets lumped into the player personnel side of it quite a bit but I'm not so sure he's even much involved. I'm sure hes front and centre for an Ohtani pitch but as far as sitting around a table talking about trades I doubt he's even in the room given how many responsibilities he would have.

 

As president he's done a great job. Ed Rogers seems like a terrible meddling owner (look at the rift he had with Masai and the Raptors) so even maintaining a good relationship and convincing him to put $ into the renovations and payroll is a huge plus.

 

He's given players tons of resources to be the best they possibly could be. Now you could argue the Blue Jays might not have the best coaches at the development level and/or scouting staff given the farm system is weaker than you would think given all these resources available and that would fall on him as the leader.

 

Given the Blue Jays were rumoured to want Kenny Williams and Dan Duquette as presidents before Shapiro came aboard as Jays fans we got incredibly lucky. I also don't have any confidence Ed Rogers would bring in a better executive than Shapiro.

 

Atkins on the other hand, I've been vocal in saying I think he could have done better but Shapiro had done a fantastic job.

[RobinThicc]

The Athletic says the Jays are one of the seven teams in on Yamamoto. Maybe he's the fall back plan.

 

 

"Seven teams, including five known clubs, have emerged as serious suitors for Yamamoto, league sources said. In no particular order, the list is believed to include the New York Yankees, San Francisco Giants, Los Angeles Dodgers, Toronto Blue Jays and the Mets, plus two more unidentified clubs."

 

https://theathletic.com/5118422/2023...mamoto-status/

[mellowgold]

The Athletic says the Jays are one of the seven teams in on Yamamoto. Maybe he's the fall back plan.

 

 

"Seven teams, including five known clubs, have emerged as serious suitors for Yamamoto, league sources said. In no particular order, the list is believed to include the New York Yankees, San Francisco Giants, Los Angeles Dodgers, Toronto Blue Jays and the Mets, plus two more unidentified clubs."

 

https://theathletic.com/5118422/2023...mamoto-status/

 

 

Cool. Can he hit?

[Eat My Shatkins]

I can't even process getting Yamamoto, I mean holy f*** balls what a rotation..

 

1. Gausman

2. Berrios

3. Yamamoto

4. Bassitt

5. Kikuchi

 

6. Manoah

7. Tiedemann

 

I assume Manoah would still be getting shopped hard for a bat, even if Soto is already gone.

[Eat My Shatkins]

LOL and if we did get Ohtani and he replaced Kooch in the rotation for 2025

 

Potentially three aces with Gausman, Ohtani and Yamamoto and still no room for Tiedemann with a healthy group

[Jimcanuck]

The Athletic says the Jays are one of the seven teams in on Yamamoto. Maybe he's the fall back plan.

 

 

"Seven teams, including five known clubs, have emerged as serious suitors for Yamamoto, league sources said. In no particular order, the list is believed to include the New York Yankees, San Francisco Giants, Los Angeles Dodgers, Toronto Blue Jays and the Mets, plus two more unidentified clubs."

 

https://theathletic.com/5118422/2023...mamoto-status/

 

lol

[John_Havok]

Look objectively at what Shapiro has accomplished in the big picture aside from throwing the blinders on and exclusively focusing on only what's happened in the playoffs.

 

During his time as president Shapiro has:

 

-built one of MLB's best farm systems which allowed the team to create an extended window of contention. The system has taken a step back in recent years but it can quickly be built back up if necessary in the future

-convinced Rogers to spend the luxury tax and possibly even higher if they sign Ohtani. The team has signed something like the 3 highest contracts in team history under his tenure

-oversaw the construction of a best in MLB training complex

-oversaw a massive renovation to Rogers Center which will dramatically improve fan experience and player training resources

-shifted the Blue Jays from an ancient behind the times organization to one at the cutting edge of science and analytics (good for the most part, certainly questionable in last years playoffs)

-created an organization which has legitimately attracted the greatest free agent in the history of the sport

 

The team has failed to achieve success in the playoffs up to this point. Having said that I have a hard time seeing how anyone can look at the state of the organization as it currently stands and compare it to where it was before Shapiro arrived and come any conclusion other than Shapiro has been one of the most important hires in the history of the organization.

 

Herp derp BUT HEZ NOT PAT GILLICK!!!

[John_Havok]

LOL and if we did get Ohtani and he replaced Kooch in the rotation for 2025

 

Potentially three aces with Gausman, Ohtani and Yamamoto and still no room for Tiedemann with a healthy group

 

In that scenario they'd likely be trying to trade Bassitt with only 1 year left.

[Jimcanuck]

Jays should make sure the Yankees don't get Yamamoto. Judge and Soto are great, but without pitching that team is going nowhere.

[Key22]

I can't even process getting Yamamoto, I mean holy f*** balls what a rotation..

 

1. Gausman

2. Berrios

3. Yamamoto

4. Bassitt

5. Kikuchi

 

6. Manoah

7. Tiedemann

 

I assume Manoah would still be getting shopped hard for a bat, even if Soto is already gone.

 

I am big on trying to get the best available free agent regardless of positional need. The exception is if you have an absolute stud, say, at Shortstop then you won't sign a shortstop.

 

But you can never have enough pitching - Manoah proved that. He was expected to be top 2 in our rotation and look what happened.

 

I would far prefer Yamamoto to Bellinger. Sure we need offense but you have to look at more than just 2024 - you look beyond - maybe this year you can't add much offense so you strengthen the pitching and hope for Vladdy and Varsho and Kirk and Springer to improve and Jansen to stay healthy. Then next year you add a bat. I would not just let Yamamoto go just because in 2024 you need a bat.

 

I also wouldn't mind if the Jays try to renegotiate a new contract with Kikuchi. If he likes Toronto maybe you can rewrite his 1-year deal to a new 3-year deal. It's a risk for the team but gives Kikuchi security. If he gets hurt in his walk year... you know the drill.

Edited December 7, 2023 by Key22

[saskjayfan]

Jays should make sure the Yankees don't get Yamamoto. Judge and Soto are great, but without pitching that team is going nowhere.

 

The best thing about the Jays potentially landing Ohtani is that the Dodgers freed a ton of payroll to sign him so if we nab him from the Dodgers they have 100 mil sitting in their pocket. They're going to be angry buying free agents. The Cohen Dodger fight for Yamamoto would be a good one. Realistically the Dodgers need to sign 2 starters and they will be looking at the top of the market blocking the Yankees hopefully.

[Jays24]

Jays are not spending 250M on a pitcher when hitting is their CLEAR need lol

[Stangstag]

Jays are not spending 250M on a pitcher when hitting is their CLEAR need lol

 

Don’t be so certain about that

[Eat My Shatkins]

lol you can trade pitching for hitting

 

Upgrade your rotation with a guy like Yamamoto and then trade from the lower part of the rotation to get a solid bat

 

It's a net positive

[Jimcanuck]

Jays are not spending 250M on a pitcher when hitting is their CLEAR need lol

 

As a group, the Jays hitters should improve over 2023.

[Frenchsoup]

If the Yanks get Soto which they will, there going HARD after Yammamoto... and it's fine. He's great and probably an ace like Tanaka. I liked Tanaka better coming over from overseas better then I like Yamma right now but hes a stud 2. Let the Mets bid up the Yankees, and go really f***ing hard for Lee. Gold Glove centerfielder that reminds me a bit of Kwan who also has untapped potentials.

[Jimcanuck]

If the Yanks get Soto which they will, there going HARD after Yammamoto... and it's fine. He's great and probably an ace like Tanaka. I liked Tanaka better coming over from overseas better then I like Yamma right now but hes a stud 2. Let the Mets bid up the Yankees, and go really f***ing hard for Lee. Gold Glove centerfielder that reminds me a bit of Kwan who also has untapped potentials.

 

On what basis do you like, at time of posting, Tanaka over Yamanoto

[jaysblue]

lol you can trade pitching for hitting

 

Upgrade your rotation with a guy like Yamamoto and then trade from the lower part of the rotation to get a solid bat

 

It's a net positive

 

Which lower part of the rotation do you think gets a solid bat?

 

Manoah's value is at its lowest. He was only discussed in the Soto talks because Soto had 1 year remaining and Padres were looking to dump salary. Maybe a team like Cincy who could trade Jonathan India might be a fit, but otherwise Manoah alone ain't bringing in a 4-5 WAR player.

 

Kikuchi has one year left, and his spotty track record previously likely limits his value. Might be able to get a similar aged 2-3 WAR bat for him with one year of control but nothing special. A lot of FA bats fit that description.

 

Bassitt has two years/$40M left and will be 35. Not sure you can find a trading partner in the offseason unless that team is in desperate need of pitching and has a similar aged bat.

 

Really only Gausman and Berrios hold any significant trade value in the offseason where you can trade them for a 4-5 WAR player.

Edited December 7, 2023 by jaysblue

[deanmike]

Based on what Atkins said he wants in potential OF additions, I think the Jays will target one or both of Aaron Hicks and Austin Meadows in FA.

[Jimcanuck]

Based on what Atkins said he wants in potential OF additions, I think the Jays will target one or both of Aaron Hicks and Austin Meadows in FA.

 

good god, no

[Carlos Danger]

Based on what Atkins said he wants in potential OF additions, I think the Jays will target one or both of Aaron Hicks and Austin Meadows in FA.

 

Apparently the Jays, “love” Joc Pederson.

[Key22]

Jays are not spending 250M on a pitcher when hitting is their CLEAR need lol

 

They are prepared to spend $500m-$600m for a Pitching/DH - the appeal here is that you are landing an ace pitcher and an elite bat.

 

As a fallback why would you not sign a $250m pitcher and a $250m bat?

[deanmike]

Apparently the Jays, “love” Joc Pederson.

 

I think they definitely will target him if they don't land Ohtani. If they do land him, I doubt they believe Joc can be a full time OF anymore.

[max silver]

They are prepared to spend $500m-$600m for a Pitching/DH - the appeal here is that you are landing an ace pitcher and an elite bat.

 

As a fallback why would you not sign a $250m pitcher and a $250m bat?

 

There isn't a bat available this offseason that's worth spending $250 million towards anyway. Aside from Soto I don't know who will potentially be available after the 2024 season.

[Eat My Shatkins]

Which lower part of the rotation do you think gets a solid bat?

 

Manoah's value is at its lowest. He was only discussed in the Soto talks because Soto had 1 year remaining and Padres were looking to dump salary. Maybe a team like Cincy who could trade Jonathan India might be a fit, but otherwise Manoah alone ain't bringing in a 4-5 WAR player.

 

Kikuchi has one year left, and his spotty track record previously likely limits his value. Might be able to get a similar aged 2-3 WAR bat for him with one year of control but nothing special. A lot of FA bats fit that description.

 

Bassitt has two years/$40M left and will be 35. Not sure you can find a trading partner in the offseason unless that team is in desperate need of pitching and has a similar aged bat.

 

Really only Gausman and Berrios hold any significant trade value in the offseason where you can trade them for a 4-5 WAR player.

 

Not too worried about getting a 4-5 WAR bat, not with what would arguably be the best pitching staff in baseball.

 

Especially if the Jays do land Ohtani along with Yama

[John_Havok]

There isn't a bat available this offseason that's worth spending $250 million towards anyway. Aside from Soto I don't know who will potentially be available after the 2024 season.

 

Assuming no extensions, biggest names right now aside from Soto are Verdugo, Santander, Haniger and Conforto. Small chance of Ozuna but he has a club option at 16 million that’s likely a guaranteed pickup. Tyler O’Neill…Heyward.

 

Next years OF FAs are weak once you get past Soto

 

IF is a different story.

 

Bregman, Altuve, Goldy

[jaysblue]

Not too worried about getting a 4-5 WAR bat, not with what would arguably be the best pitching staff in baseball.

 

Especially if the Jays do land Ohtani along with Yama

 

You just said if the Jays signed Yama, they could trade one of their back-end rotation starters for a solid bat. So you think Manoah, Kikuchi or Bassitt can bring in a 4-5 WAR bat?

 

I think Gausman and maybe Berrios could, but then you're talking about trading your No. 1 or 2 starter. Those guys aren't in the lower part of the rotation.