Blue Jays acquire Daulton Varsho for Moreno and Gurriel

[Spanky99]

People just seem to miss the fact that you aren't going to bring back a player with value like Varsho without paying a price that ultimately hurts a lot. It sucks to see Moreno go the other way as he's a potential future stud, but Varsho is really f***ing good right now. This is a dude who produced a 4.6 FWAR/4.9 BWAR season and has 4 more years of remaining control. Moreno was ultimately a luxury on this team. It seems like people were more on board with the idea of burning roster value by using Moreno as a super sub utility player vs trading Moreno to fill an area of obvious need. If the team actually had some young outfielders in the minor leagues a move like this wouldn't have been necessary but that's one area they haven't produced any reinforcements for the roster up to this point.

 

I'm fine with the trade, value seems on par. Going to be a fun season.

[Jays24]

The sky is always falling with this guy. I really don't remember the front office making any moves that this guy actually likes, it's always the same tired whine bitch whine routine. The team as constructed presently has made an upgrade to the bullpen with Swanson, has replaced Stripling with more of a sure thing in Bassit, has essentially replaced Teoscar with Varsho, and has replaced the collection of Zimmer/Bradley Jr./Tapia with Kiermaier. The outfield has gone from below average to potentially elite defensively, the starting rotation will likely receive more innings, the lineup has become more balanced and the bullpen has acquired another swing and miss reliever. It's entirely possible the lineup is going to score fewer runs, but this should be more than offset by the extra runs which are going to be saved defensively.

 

Not true at all. I'm far from being right all the time so im never stuck on my opinion knowing this. I just prefer to voice my opinion and don't always like everything this front office does because they're also far from being right all the time.

 

In regards to this offseason, I hate the Teo trade and loved the KK/Bassit signings. I don't think we got good value in this trade since i was a huge believer in Moreno being elite. I also don't hate this trade because we filled a major area of need longterm while subtracting from a position of strength.

[Jimcanuck]

It's going to be very enjoyable watching the Jays in 2023. Gonna make a lot of highlight reels.

 

Incredible D if Bo can step it up a notch. Makes a huge difference for the pitching staff. Less 4/5 out innings.

[John_Havok]

My thoughts exactly. He's Grichuk from the left side offensively. He's prime Kiermeyer defensively.

 

I'm just not sold on the offense.

 

If you want to see some upside, just consider that he's an extreme left handed pull hitter that won't have to deal with extreme shifting going forward. That alone should bump the overall offense a few points. It's not going to turn him into Barry Bonds, but a 115 wRC+ isnt hard to see as a possibility.

[Captain_Obvious]

My thoughts exactly. He's Grichuk from the left side offensively. He's prime Kiermeyer defensively.

 

I'm just not sold on the offense.

 

He is not here to carry us offensively. He is here to be average offensively while reducing our pitchers ERAs.

[Brownie19]

My thoughts exactly. He's Grichuk from the left side offensively. He's prime Kiermeyer defensively.

 

I'm just not sold on the offense.

 

Have a peak at his minor league numbers - they will make you feel better. He wasn't a high K% guy and tore up the minors. There's certainly more potential in that bat.

[The Iceman]

This trade made the Jays stronger dealing from a position of strength and excess.

 

Looking at the $$$ FA OFs were going for makes this a good trade for the Jays. Lets see where they reinvest the $$$ they had earmarked for an OF.

 

I see DV as our starting CF for 1/3rd of our games this coming year and full time in 2024.

Just listened to Ben Nicholson Smith say DV was the #1 defensive OF in baseball last year.

[Spanky99]

What about his defense and baserunning dumbass?

 

lmao

[connorp]

There's definitely some luck involved ibn how some defensive metrics are calculated, but when you have 99th percentile jump and 70th percentile speed, chances are you won't fluctuate that much in the metrics that matter.

 

I mean, he’s a consensus plus defender, no doubt about that. Projections are what they are though, you don’t get to quote them one place and disregard them another.

 

He’s an average hitting corner OF that plays plus D and will help on the base paths. There’s stuff to like no doubt

[Spanky99]

Still have one of the best catcher group in the majors and now we have one of the best outfield D core in the league

 

Bingo!

[xposbrad]

At his prime, would KK have netted a top 10 prospect in all of baseball, and you can look at his fWAR numbers to compare with Varsho. Just wondering what you guys think.

[Virgil_Hiltz]

I think d backs get the best of this trade moreno gives them the edge.

 

The measuring stick for who wins this trade is different for each team. The Jays won't be using the individual stats to decide who won this trade. They will be using the playoffs.

[Horses Fart]

I'm fine with the trade, value seems on par. Going to be a fun season.

 

Exactly. Between the different looking team and the different looking stadium it’s gonna be nice to see something different.

[MikeM3]

We never actually had leverage with our Cs because teams knew we had to sell one to win now. Our window is not big.

 

Moreno is athletic for a C but not that athletic or explosive with the bat. I think we sold under his value but Varsho is a bit of a cheat code with everything he gives you and that's important right now.

[max silver]

Yeah, I was looking at the rest of the free agent OF options... there's not much out there that fit that bill. One of KK or Varsho will likely sit against lefties, and they'll do need something to replace that.

 

Tommy Pham?

 

I don't think Pham is a great fit for this organization given the amount of value placed on character and Pham's various violence related issues.

[Jays24]

Daulton Varsho, Kevin Kiermaier, Chris Bassitt, Erik Swanson in... Lourdes, Moreno, Teo out... Is Atkins lowkey a racist?

 

Let's not forget that we added Bass and Merrifield at the trade deadline too loll.

 

This feels like Deja vu but don't remember which iteration of the Jays got accused of being racist before lol.

[Brownie19]

I do like how Varsho should allow Jansen and Kirk to typically both be in the lineup everyday. Teams typically shy away from that if they aren't carrying a 3rd catcher - which Varsho can now act as.

[Deadpool]

I mean, he’s a consensus plus defender, no doubt about that. Projections are what they are though, you don’t get to quote them one place and disregard them another.

 

He’s an average hitting corner OF that plays plus D and will help on the base paths. There’s stuff to like no doubt

 

But he's not Plus D. He's "one of the best in all of baseball" D.

[Ray]

At his prime, would KK have netted a top 10 prospect in all of baseball, and you can look at his fWAR numbers to compare with Varsho. Just wondering what you guys think.

 

Wow, people are really underselling Varsho’s offensive potential. He’s not really comparable to Kiermaier.

 

First off, Varsho’s offensive baseline is higher. 106 wRC+ last year, and that is with the shift. His baseline going forward should be around 110-115 wRC+ with the shift restrictions. That’s basically Kiermaiers career high. Then you add the fact that he’s still 26, has less than 1500 PA’s in the majors, is a former top prospect, and had a .899 OPS in the minors with a 15% k-rate, and you’re looking at a potentially superstar level player if he improves offensively.

 

Like if he just improves a little and gets to 120 wRC+ (very possible) coupled with his defense, he’s EASILY a 6-7 WAR player.

[Captain Adama]

[Brownie19]

Yeah, I was looking at the rest of the free agent OF options... there's not much out there that fit that bill. One of KK or Varsho will likely sit against lefties, and they'll do need something to replace that.

 

Tommy Pham?

 

We really already have Espinal that we want in there v. LHP. Merrifield moves to the OF. That said, a lefty masher would be a nice add. AJ Pollock might be a good fit.

[Jays24]

I do like how Varsho should allow Jansen and Kirk to typically both be in the lineup everyday. Teams typically shy away from that if they aren't carrying a 3rd catcher - which Varsho can now act as.

 

This is a very underrated aspect of how we can construct our lineups without having to sign a s***** 3rd catcher. I still can't remember the last player who could play CF and C at a high level. Extremely rare to have an athlete like this at the major league level

[Laika]

Every time Toronto Ross trades away a prospect I now just assume they are lower on him than the industry.

 

Atkins deserves this benefit of the doubt at this point. They have rarely (never?) traded away a prospect and regretted it.

 

Maybe they think Moreno is overrated.

[Jimcanuck]

This is a very underrated aspect of how we can construct our lineups without having to sign a s***** 3rd catcher. I still can't remember the last player who could play CF and C at a high level. Extremely rare to have an athlete like this at the major league level

 

To be clear he's a fair bit below average as a C. We won't see him there very much.

[connorp]

Wow, people are really underselling Varsho’s offensive potential. He’s not really comparable to Kiermaier.

 

First off, Varsho’s offensive baseline is higher. 106 wRC+ last year, and that is with the shift. His baseline going forward should be around 110-115 wRC+ with the shift restrictions. That’s basically Kiermaiers career high. Then you add the fact that he’s still 26, has less than 1500 PA’s in the majors, is a former top prospect, and had a .899 OPS in the minors with a 15% k-rate, and you’re looking at a potentially superstar level player if he improves offensively.

 

Like if he just improves a little and gets to 120 wRC+ (very possible) coupled with his defense, he’s EASILY a 6-7 WAR player.

 

I’m coming around the the practicality of the deal, but can you be any more of a f***ing homer lol. It’s literally no better than someone trolling the move. The guy could easily be a Top 10 player in baseball lol. Just needs to improve just a little

[keggy]

A lot has been said already, so just touching on main objective points.

 

Purely from a roster construction perspective, this is probably the most perfect possible fit outside of getting someone like Ohtani. Varsho is a legit everyday player who is overstretched as a fulltime C, but can easily handle backup duty. This has cascading effects on the roster, as you effectively remove all limitations on Kirk DHing. The team now can and should pinch run for Kirk aggressively in close games. This is normally a trivial factor, but Kirk is so slow that pinch running Merrifield, Biggio, or Kiermaier will add real value over the course of a season. This also makes late inning defensive C replacement feasible during blowouts which we almost never did last year. I don't put a lot of stock in handedness, but he is a LHH that can play every day, which the front office has desperately sought.

 

People clearly have a problem with Varsho's offensive production, which is fair. He's being compared to Grichuk. His bat could be a liability, and he's borderline unplayable against LHP. With that said, he is a great athlete with that power-speed-defense combo that scouts love. I think he'll age better than someone like Grichuk and has a much better chance of breaking out offensively. Young Jayson Werth coming up as a catcher comes to mind as a best case scenario.

 

With all that said, Varsho's present value is almost entirely in his defense, which is elite. I'm not sure people appreciate how much better Varsho is over someone like Gurriel. This makes his floor super high even if he doesn't break out offensively. In a fantasy world, you could imagine a scenario for the Jays where basically every position on the field is gold glove calibre except shortstop.

 

Varsho replaces Gurriel who is a league average player on a cheap contract for 1 year and isn't worth a QO for draft compensation. To me Gurriel is a non-factor in this trade.

 

Losing Moreno is brutal. His absolute ceiling is a gold glove C with at least an above average MLB bat, so basically a perennial allstar. He's making the league minimum which is going to hurt the team more than you think moving forward. Even if he doesn't reach his potential, it's going to be hard for Moreno to be a total bust.

 

With the farm system wrecked and payroll maxed out, this is undoubtedly a move to go for a championship within the Guerrero window. This is the type of deal that might look bad in 5 years, but there is huge variance based on how both Varsho and Moreno develop.

[Spanky99]

Who did the grading? Some of the ESPN writers are absolute morons.

 

Probably, Buster Olney, lol.

[Jonn]

I do like how Varsho should allow Jansen and Kirk to typically both be in the lineup everyday. Teams typically shy away from that if they aren't carrying a 3rd catcher - which Varsho can now act as.

 

I would shocked if Varsho ever catches a game with the Jays. Unless it was an emergency situation. It just wouldn’t make much sense. They brought him in play Outfield very well and hit bombs from the left side.

[Jays24]

To be clear he's a fair bit below average as a C. We won't see him there very much.

 

They kept showing a couple of his nice catches as a Catcher so I assumed he was good there too lol.

[Captain_Obvious]

Every time Toronto Ross trades away a prospect I now just assume they are lower on him than the industry.

 

Atkins deserves this benefit of the doubt at this point. They have rarely (never?) traded away a prospect and regretted it.

 

Maybe they think Moreno is overrated.

 

Moreno does not have to be overrated for this trade to be good. Varsho is worth a top 10-20 prospect. I actually hope Moreno posts 5 WAR seasons for Arizona. I will still like the trade if Varsho delivers like he has in the past two years.