Blue Jays acquire Daulton Varsho for Moreno and Gurriel

[Spanky99]

It should be noted, that many people like this trade partly because it gives us a decent LHB everyday player, but the need for an everyday LHB has been completely overrated and was completely unnecessary.

 

This team mashed RHP. We have done nothing to improve that, we have actually taken a step backwards in that regard and now have also worsened our ability to hit LHP. This offseason really hurt the one area of the team that was good.

 

I love that we improved our defense, I really do, and I know there are $ considerations also (although that's Rogers' problem so I'm not making that mine as a fan) but we hurt the bread and butter part of our team.

 

Just a better bullpen and starting pitching help. That's all we needed. The task was straightforward. Now it got all complicated and we have fewer pieces to work with in trades. We could've rolled out the same team with another starter (and a little bit of AAAA starting depth) with a couple of better bullpen arms and we could've taken a massive step forward.

 

I've had a couple of days to sober up to the deal, and I still don't like it.

 

Late in game was our issue.

[Ryu In My House]

Now that's a great take!

 

It's a really great article.

[Masterbather]

You are looking at this all wrong. We replaced 1 year of a 2.5 WAR OF and 1 year of a 1.5 WAR OF with 4 prime years of a 4+ WAR OF and 1 year of 2 WAR OF while adding a very good BP piece for 3 years. The blue jays added 2-3 wins for 2023 and are in a much better position for 2024 and 2025.

 

You are judging Teo and Gurriel on down years, especially Teo and so much of Varsho's value is based on his defense which actually can be a fickle thing. Any nagging leg injury, especially playing on turf, can quickly obliterate his value. People will tire of this guy quickly with that garbage bat he carries.

 

I get there are years of control to consider, but the bottom line is this team is not much better than it was last year if at all. We went and downgraded our offense, perhaps significantly so for a significant improvement in defense, I'm not sure what will offset what. We did add one good bullpen arm. Our rotation made a lateral move, at best.

 

This team had a gap to close, while other contenders get stronger, that gap gets bigger. We've lost two everyday OF's, a top prospect and I don't think we have enough to show for it. The FO went and complicated what should've been much simpler because they kept striking out on guys they wanted.

 

At some point you really have to win now or just spin your wheels as a team that is always good but not good enough until it's time to start over again. I'd rather shorten a window to win it all and be aggressive in that shorter window, than extend the window while just being very good but not good enough to win it all. This move seems like more of the latter.

[Masterbather]

Late in game was our issue.

 

We need bullpen arms, top shelf bullpen guys, filthy swing and miss stuff. We don't have enough of it. We have NONE of it from the left side.

 

Our deluded GM actually believes we have a top 5 bullpen. This is the guy running our team and he actually believes that.

 

That terrifies me. They actually pay this guy lots of money to come to THAT conclusion after watching our mediocre bullpen get rocked into submission in one of the most embarrassing playoff collapses in recent memory, and watched the conga line of fireballers coming out of other top teams' bullpens and came to THAT conclusion.

[Deadpool]

We need bullpen arms, top shelf bullpen guys, filthy swing and miss stuff. We don't have enough of it. We have NONE of it from the left side.

 

Our deluded GM actually believes we have a top 5 bullpen. This is the guy running our team and he actually believes that.

 

That terrifies me. They actually pay this guy lots of money to come to THAT conclusion after watching our mediocre bullpen get rocked into submission in one of the most embarrassing playoff collapses in recent memory, and watched the conga line of fireballers coming out of other top teams' bullpens and came to THAT conclusion.

 

He said "Top 5 bullpen depth".

 

Words have meanings.

 

I also don't like your take much at all, you say "we didn't improve from last year", well, yeah we did, marginally. On a team that won 92 games and was in the playoffs quite comfortably (and should be again this season barring catastrophic developments). Marginal upgrades on an already great team, with a top 5 payroll in place is not something we should be complaining about in any substantial manner.

 

I think we probably paid a bit too high a price with Moreno, but nothing that couldn't be absorbed in the short and long term, and Varsho is a nice upgrade with a low salary and 4 years of control, we're good.

[Masterbather]

He said "Top 5 bullpen depth".

 

Words have meanings.

 

I also don't like your take much at all, you say "we didn't improve from last year", well, yeah we did, marginally. On a team that won 92 games and was in the playoffs quite comfortably (and should be again this season barring catastrophic developments). Marginal upgrades on an already great team, with a top 5 payroll in place is not something we should be complaining about in any substantial manner.

 

I think we probably paid a bit too high a price with Moreno, but nothing that couldn't be absorbed in the short and long term, and Varsho is a nice upgrade with a low salary and 4 years of control, we're good.

 

We don't have a top 5 bullpen or top 5 bullpen depth. We have an okay to good bullpen and I don't know who's supposed to come in and help us when there's injuries. Where's this great depth?

 

What he said is ********.

 

I don't like the use of our assets. The division is not getting any easier and I don't think making the playoffs will be so comfortable this coming year.

 

Time will tell, I think it's been a s***** offseason with panic moves for the wrong pieces.

 

 

Anyhow, Merry Christmas to all. Have a wonderful day.

[Spanky99]

We need bullpen arms, top shelf bullpen guys, filthy swing and miss stuff. We don't have enough of it. We have NONE of it from the left side.

 

Our deluded GM actually believes we have a top 5 bullpen. This is the guy running our team and he actually believes that.

 

That terrifies me. They actually pay this guy lots of money to come to THAT conclusion after watching our mediocre bullpen get rocked into submission in one of the most embarrassing playoff collapses in recent memory, and watched the conga line of fireballers coming out of other top teams' bullpens and came to THAT conclusion.

 

LMAO... da fuq is this???

[Spanky99]

We don't have a top 5 bullpen or top 5 bullpen depth. We have an okay to good bullpen and I don't know who's supposed to come in and help us when there's injuries. Where's this great depth?

 

What he said is ********.

 

I don't like the use of our assets. The division is not getting any easier and I don't think making the playoffs will be so comfortable this coming year.

 

Time will tell, I think it's been a s***** offseason with panic moves for the wrong pieces.

 

 

Anyhow, Merry Christmas to all. Have a wonderful day.

 

Well then...

[justafan]

There are a few things that are not mentioned here. The jays have really upgraded their ability to steal bases which has been missing for a long time. Thats an offensive positive

 

I really liked Teo, but he was starting to miss a step here and there and is in his last year before FA. Seems like everyone has Biggio/Merrifield at second. Why not Espy? His bat is way better with similar great defense. I believe he is highly under rated.

 

Lastly, I believe the bench has been very divided the past few years. Getting rid of the clown (LGJ) and his click is going to help make a better team. IMHO.

[jaysguy44]

There are a few things that are not mentioned here. The jays have really upgraded their ability to steal bases which has been missing for a long time. Thats an offensive positive

 

I really liked Teo, but he was starting to miss a step here and there and is in his last year before FA. Seems like everyone has Biggio/Merrifield at second. Why not Espy? His bat is way better with similar great defense. I believe he is highly under rated.

 

Lastly, I believe the bench has been very divided the past few years. Getting rid of the clown (LGJ) and his click is going to help make a better team. IMHO.

This, definitely not going to miss LGJ pissing around in the dugout all game.. I don't think Mattingly would have put up with it.

[Ehjays]

 

Varsho meets the press. Talks about running hard for everything, He says he got it from his football years, Man he would destroy Bo if that happened again.

 

 

Atkins call with the press about the trade

[Laika]

The Jays are 6th in project WAR but basically tied with the Braves and Rays for 4th.

 

Toronto has more projected WAR than the Dodgers and Astros.

 

Just 3 projected wins behind the Yankees.

[Stangstag]

The Jays are 6th in project WAR but basically tied with the Braves and Rays for 4th.

 

Toronto has more projected WAR than the Dodgers and Astros.

 

Just 3 projected wins behind the Yankees.

 

I don’t care. This team isn’t good enough to beat the Yankees or Astros, probably the Mariners too.

 

Shapiro f***ing sucks. Bring Beeston back and sign Teoscar to be a blue jays for life

 

/s

[Laika]

I don’t care. This team isn’t good enough to beat the Yankees or Astros, probably the Mariners too.

 

Shapiro f***ing sucks. Bring Beeston back and sign Teoscar to be a blue jays for life

 

/s

 

Just crazy that they ripped the heart and soul out of the team (Toescar Hernandez and Loordes Guriel) and traded away two of their best hitters in the process + the best prospect in baseball and all they have to show for it is...

 

... a defensive specialist and a reliever who was not even trusted in Seattle!?

 

It's pretty horrible.

 

And then they repeat the Ryu contract mistake on Chris Bassitt. Just a low upside kitchen-sink pitcher without good stuff. He has also had two major injuries in his career tommy johns surgery and a brain injury. I don't love the logic of trading for pitchers whose heads are so big they are at risk of getting beaned on every cumbacker.

 

Where is the second closer we needed?

All this trading and Kikoochi is still in the projected rotation?

 

smh

[jaysguy44]

Just crazy that they ripped the heart and soul out of the team (Toescar Hernandez and Loordes Guriel) and traded away two of their best hitters in the process + the best prospect in baseball and all they have to show for it is...

 

... a defensive specialist and a reliever who was not even trusted in Seattle!?

 

It's pretty horrible.

 

And then they repeat the Ryu contract mistake on Chris Bassitt. Just a low upside kitchen-sink pitcher without good stuff. He has also had two major injuries in his career tommy johns surgery and a brain injury. I don't love the logic of trading for pitchers whose heads are so big they are at risk of getting beaned on every cumbacker.

 

Where is the second closer we needed?

All this trading and Kikoochi is still in the projected rotation?

 

smh

Traded the 2 "heart and soul" players on a team that has failed to live up to expectations the last 2-3 seasons? I can't believe it!

 

I'll miss Teo somewhat, but I definitely won't miss LGJ.

[The_DH]

Just crazy that they ripped the heart and soul out of the team (Toescar Hernandez and Loordes Guriel) and traded away two of their best hitters in the process + the best prospect in baseball and all they have to show for it is...

 

... a defensive specialist and a reliever who was not even trusted in Seattle!?

 

It's pretty horrible.

 

And then they repeat the Ryu contract mistake on Chris Bassitt. Just a low upside kitchen-sink pitcher without good stuff. He has also had two major injuries in his career tommy johns surgery and a brain injury. I don't love the logic of trading for pitchers whose heads are so big they are at risk of getting beaned on every cumbacker.

 

Where is the second closer we needed?

All this trading and Kikoochi is still in the projected rotation?

 

smh

 

I remember thinking the same thing when we traded Fernandez and McGriff. It's hard but gotta be open.

[John_Havok]

I remember thinking the same thing when we traded Fernandez and McGriff. It's hard but gotta be open.

 

I doubt you were thinking it sarcastically like Laika though.

 

I also remember that trade and wondering what the f***? But back then it was really hard to know much about players on every team aside from the premier markets. All I knew was we had traded 2 great Jays for who the f*** knows what.

[Abomination]

You are judging Teo and Gurriel on down years, especially Teo and so much of Varsho's value is based on his defense which actually can be a fickle thing. Any nagging leg injury, especially playing on turf, can quickly obliterate his value. People will tire of this guy quickly with that garbage bat he carries.

 

Why do people think his bat is garbage? He put up a 106 wRC+ last year (118 in the second half) and is projected for 113 wRC+ this year. He's also likely to see a large bump in his BABIP with the shift rule changes this year. That is NOT a garbage bat. It's not Teoscar, but it's well above average, especially for a CF.

[The_DH]

I doubt you were thinking it sarcastically like Laika though.

 

I also remember that trade and wondering what the f***? But back then it was really hard to know much about players on every team aside from the premier markets. All I knew was we had traded 2 great Jays for who the f*** knows what.

 

Trading an extra catcher for a guy that can improve the defense is what I like to look at. This defense could be REAL SPECIAL Might be a pitcher short though.

[Grant77]

Why do people think his bat is garbage? He put up a 106 wRC+ last year (118 in the second half) and is projected for 113 wRC+ this year. He's also likely to see a large bump in his BABIP with the shift rule changes this year. That is NOT a garbage bat. It's not Teoscar, but it's well above average, especially for a CF.

 

Gabriel Moreno projects the same with the bat as a rookie, is probably an elite defender as well, and has 2 more years of control. Just a thought.

[John_Havok]

Gabriel Moreno projects the same with the bat as a rookie, is probably an elite defender as well, and has 2 more years of control. Just a thought.

 

You figure he’d be an elite defender in the OF? I don’t think we have enough info to make that assumption. He has played exactly 4 innings in LF.

 

It is possible though, the guy was a SS when he was signed. I still don’t get why he was transitioned to catcher.

[Carlos Danger]

I remember thinking the same thing when we traded Fernandez and McGriff. It's hard but gotta be open.

 

This off season is similar.

 

I remember the whole thing vividly. Basically, we were a playoff team, division winner or near, multiple times the years prior. In the playoffs we got destroyed. I remember Ricky Henderson single handily finishing Ernie Witts career.

 

My dad told me before he died repeatedly, the Blue Jays teams at the time didn’t have the chemistry to win a WS.

 

On paper and when I would look at some newspaper positional comparisons, the Blue Jays looked just as good or better as other teams. However, the end of the year results did not reflect what was on paper.

 

Gillick knew this: The Alomar and Carter trade was as much to change the chemistry as it was for talent. That and bringing in guys like Winfield, Jack Morris, Molitor, Henderson and Stuart. Plus they had Devo and Alomar up the middle - Run prevention.

 

You guys know the results.

[The_DH]

This off season is similar.

 

I remember the whole thing vividly. Basically, we were a playoff team, division winner or near, multiple times the years prior. In the playoffs we got destroyed. I remember Ricky Henderson single handily finishing Ernie Witts career.

 

My dad told me before he died repeatedly, the Blue Jays teams at the time didn’t have the chemistry to win a WS.

 

On paper and when I would look at some newspaper positional comparisons, the Blue Jays looked just as good or better as other teams. However, the end of the year results did not reflect what was on paper.

 

Gillick knew this: The Alomar and Carter trade was as much to change the chemistry as it was for talent. That and bringing in guys like Winfield, Jack Morris, Molitor, Henderson and Stuart. Plus they had Devo and Alomar up the middle - Run prevention.

 

You guys know the results.

 

true, it was about character as much as anything else. But upgrading defense was a huge part of that off-season.

[Stottlemyres_Bloody_Chin]

You are judging Teo and Gurriel on down years, especially Teo and so much of Varsho's value is based on his defense which actually can be a fickle thing. Any nagging leg injury, especially playing on turf, can quickly obliterate his value. People will tire of this guy quickly with that garbage bat he carries.

 

I get there are years of control to consider, but the bottom line is this team is not much better than it was last year if at all. We went and downgraded our offense, perhaps significantly so for a significant improvement in defense, I'm not sure what will offset what. We did add one good bullpen arm. Our rotation made a lateral move, at best.

 

This team had a gap to close, while other contenders get stronger, that gap gets bigger. We've lost two everyday OF's, a top prospect and I don't think we have enough to show for it. The FO went and complicated what should've been much simpler because they kept striking out on guys they wanted.

 

At some point you really have to win now or just spin your wheels as a team that is always good but not good enough until it's time to start over again. I'd rather shorten a window to win it all and be aggressive in that shorter window, than extend the window while just being very good but not good enough to win it all. This move seems like more of the latter.

 

Excellent take.. agree 100%

[Captain_Obvious]

Excellent take.. agree 100%

 

It is not a good take at all. I will play this game too. Teo can get hit by pitch and break his wrist and lose all his power. Manoah can injure his elbow and become a replacement level pitcher. Gurriel can lose his power and .... oh wait... he already lost all power and had a lower ISO than f***ing Tapia in 2022.

[Grant77]

You figure he’d be an elite defender in the OF? I don’t think we have enough info to make that assumption. He has played exactly 4 innings in LF.

 

It is possible though, the guy was a SS when he was signed. I still don’t get why he was transitioned to catcher.

 

What I meant to say is that he's got a good chance to be an elite defensive catcher and his bat projects to be the same as Varsho, but at a much younger age. He's also got more team control.

 

This doesn't mean we "lose" the trade, but we didn't get anywhere close to fair value. We gave up our leverage took the hit to address an area of need. The Diamondbacks made out like bandits. It's a massive win for them.

[Carlos Danger]

We don't have a top 5 bullpen or top 5 bullpen depth. We have an okay to good bullpen and I don't know who's supposed to come in and help us when there's injuries. Where's this great depth?

 

What he said is ********.

 

I don't like the use of our assets. The division is not getting any easier and I don't think making the playoffs will be so comfortable this coming year.

 

Time will tell, I think it's been a s***** offseason with panic moves for the wrong pieces.

 

 

Anyhow, Merry Christmas to all. Have a wonderful day.

 

I have been one of the biggest critics of the pen. That is why I like the Swanson addition and the off season is not over yet.

 

We went to the playoffs twice as a WC and got swept. The fact of the matter is that even with Teo and LGR we did not score more runs than the other teams.

 

Therefore, run prevention is the formula to go to the next level. Divison champs and advance to WS. Swanson over Teo, Varsho over both Teo and LGR and Bassit over our 4 and 5 sps we started with last year and anything we used to fill in throughout the year.

[connorp]

I have been one of the biggest critics of the pen. That is why I like the Swanson addition and the off season is not over yet.

 

We went to the playoffs twice as a WC and got swept. The fact of the matter is that even with Teo and LGR we did not score more runs than the other teams.

 

Therefore, run prevention is the formula to go to the next level. Divison champs and advance to WS. Swanson over Teo, Varsho over both Teo and LGR and Bassit over our 4 and 5 sps we started with last year and anything we used to fill in throughout the year.

 

There’s no magic formula. You need a bit of everything. The last 2 years and 4 losses, the Jays have lost games differently. The pen is probably the most glaring but the bats were completely limp in 2 of the 4. So going backwards in that category while improving it others really wasn’t ideal. Ideally you could’ve found a CF and Teo would be fine in RF. Over the course of a season he’ll lose value in the field, but not really in a 3 game series. His main issue seemed to be focus on D and like the NBA, I imagine players like that see a boost come playoffs

 

Jays decided not to really go for 2023 though and take the payroll flexibility and longer term vision. Nothing wrong with it and I wouldn’t argue it’s not the “smart” way, especially if Swanson works out. But it’s definitely a different approach than the teams trying to win the whole thing next year

 

I like Bassitt though. If he stays what he has been at least. Run prevention center just be better pitching too

[connorp]

As others have said, I’d love Eovaldi. If Berrios pitches well, you still have Eovaldi ready to take the ball in any playoff game if they’re struggling. If Berrios struggles, Berrios would be kind of the swing man. Either way the #4 SP would probably be legit

[connorp]

Not to mention if there’s an injury