Vlad and Bo Extensions

[max silver]

Dude, we were in two different universes, hence my confusion with all your replies.

 

My post had zero to do with something that happened with the Blue Jays and I never said it did. I was replying to Max Silver’s long post where he was talking about in general, let grown men do as they wish and it doesn’t matter what they do after a loss. I was talking about philosophical differences in discipline, leadership style and rules.

 

Where in the f*** did I ever say it didn't matter what the team does after a loss? We don't even know what goes on in the Jays clubhouse in the first place aside from the occasional story about players meetings, Schneider bringing in a DJ before a game (better get Mattingly on that, can't have a manager allowing players to have fun in the clubhouse), post season celebrations etc. My longer post was specifically referencing players looking happy in the dugout during a game. You came up with an irrelevant point about players dancing in the clubhouse after a game that had nothing to do with the in game situation I was discussing.

 

My point remains that people are making giant assumptions that since players have looked happy in the dugout while behind in the score that they don't care enough about losing.

[Laika]

While he did have a few mental lapses, I think people are confusing “lackadaisical play” with Teo playing through injury. For the entire last month + he was playing on a foot with a bad bone bruise and probably should have been DHing full time, except Springer was also in the same kind of situation with his elbow.

 

Nah he has ALWAYS been a bad outfielder despite being fast. Just not that smart out there. The brain farts are a career long thing.

 

https://www.mlb.com/video/kevin-gausman-in-play-run-s-to-jorge-polanco?q=teoscar%20hernandez%20error&cp=MIXED&qt=FREETEXT&p=0

 

Look at how he goes after this ball AFTER clanking it. Barely jogging.

 

I dunno what it is but he has like the opposite of a killer instinct on defense.

[L54]

Where in the f*** did I ever say it didn't matter what the team does after a loss? We don't even know what goes on in the Jays clubhouse in the first place aside from the occasional story about players meetings, Schneider bringing in a DJ before a game (better get Mattingly on that, can't have a manager allowing players to have fun in the clubhouse), post season celebrations etc. My longer post was specifically referencing players looking happy in the dugout during a game. You came up with an irrelevant point about players dancing in the clubhouse after a game that had nothing to do with the in game situation I was discussing.

 

My point remains that people are making giant assumptions that since players have looked happy in the dugout while behind in the score that they don't care enough about losing.

 

I’ve specifically referenced the Barrio clowning around while getting their s*** pushed in and how it’s a bad look. Nobody cares about Teo dumping seeds on guys or putting on the HR jacket when they’re down 3.

 

My only hypothesis is that the people who are cool with lack lustre effort are the ones who never played anything at a level high enough where losing was a disappointment.

 

If you’re a high level competitor, and you see teammates clowning around when you’re getting dusted it is extremely frustrating. Remember 2021 when they missed the post season by 1 game? Every single inning matters, and losing focus and or not putting your best effort forward every chance you get is an insult to the guys that do.

[L54]

It’s not about results but it’s about the process. If the process is bad then you can’t expect the results to follow. Physical errors happen and are a part of the game, but having the discipline to lock in and compete is what good teams expect from one another.

[max silver]

I’ve specifically referenced the Barrio clowning around while getting their s*** pushed in and how it’s a bad look. Nobody cares about Teo dumping seeds on guys or putting on the HR jacket when they’re down 3.

 

My only hypothesis is that the people who are cool with lack lustre effort are the ones who never played anything at a level high enough where losing was a disappointment.

 

If you’re a high level competitor, and you see teammates clowning around when you’re getting dusted it is extremely frustrating. Remember 2021 when they missed the post season by 1 game? Every single inning matters, and losing focus and or not putting your best effort forward every chance you get is an insult to the guys that do.

 

I just don't equate what a player does on the bench with what they do on the field of play. I fail to see how a player acting silly on the bench means that he is going to lack in effort on the field or end up day dream during play. Some players are simply more prone to making mistakes on the field than others players are.

 

This ultimately isn't a one size fits all scenario. George Springer clowns around on the bench just as much as anyone else on the team, yet he doesn't make a lot of mental errors while on the field. Bo Bichette is one of the more intense/serious looking guys on the Jays bench, yet despite this he makes a ton of errors on easy plays. Maybe he actually needs to relax a little more and dial down the intensity a bit as that may allow him to make the routine plays more frequently. Conversely Vlad is one of the biggest "offenders" when it comes to having fun on the bench, and at the same time he is overaggressive on the bases or stands at home plate and occasionally watches a fly ball clank off of the wall. Are you suggesting that Vlad will make better decisions on the bases if he acts more serious on the bench?

 

A baseball team is made up of a ton of different personalities and as such different players are going to internalize competition differently. Team management has been very careful to cultivate a very close team culture, and part of this entails encouraging players to be themselves. The manager has stated that he wants his team to have fun and stay loose to allow them to perform up to their capabilities. The team is made up of a variety of fun loving goofball types and conversely a collection of more serious types. In my view treating players like they are grade schoolers and forcing them to be uptight/"serious looking" to placate fans doesn't sound like something which would ultimately be beneficial.

[Grant77]

No, not the Blue Jays. Just to Max Silver’s assertion that a Lazaiss faire attitude is no problem and they are grown men in baseball.

 

Laissez-faire

[Omar]

Laissez-faire

 

Everyone else let it go.

[Carlos Danger]

Laissez-faire

 

Merci beaucoup

[Carlos Danger]

Where in the f*** did I ever say it didn't matter what the team does after a loss? We don't even know what goes on in the Jays clubhouse in the first place aside from the occasional story about players meetings, Schneider bringing in a DJ before a game (better get Mattingly on that, can't have a manager allowing players to have fun in the clubhouse), post season celebrations etc. My longer post was specifically referencing players looking happy in the dugout during a game. You came up with an irrelevant point about players dancing in the clubhouse after a game that had nothing to do with the in game situation I was discussing.

 

My point remains that people are making giant assumptions that since players have looked happy in the dugout while behind in the score that they don't care enough about losing.

 

when your team is losing, but I can't wrap my brain around why fans think that players need to act like mopey goth girls when the team is losing

 

I took this to mean how one should act when losing. I assume if ok with the dugout, the same would apply to the club house.

 

Hence, to help me understand/clarify your position, I asked if the example from Money Ball is ok in your book?

[max silver]

I took this to mean how one should act when losing. I assume if ok with the dugout, the same would apply to the club house.

 

Hence, to help me understand/clarify your position, I asked if the example from Money Ball is ok in your book?

 

I really don't care that much one way or another what the team does in the clubhouse behind closed doors. That's ultimately up to the players, team management and coaching staff to decide what goes on in the clubhouse. If they decide that cracking a beer, dancing etc. after a loss is a problem, then they won't allow it to occur.

[L54]

I just don't equate what a player does on the bench with what they do on the field of play. I fail to see how a player acting silly on the bench means that he is going to lack in effort on the field or end up day dream during play. Some players are simply more prone to making mistakes on the field than others players are.

 

This ultimately isn't a one size fits all scenario. George Springer clowns around on the bench just as much as anyone else on the team, yet he doesn't make a lot of mental errors while on the field. Bo Bichette is one of the more intense/serious looking guys on the Jays bench, yet despite this he makes a ton of errors on easy plays. Maybe he actually needs to relax a little more and dial down the intensity a bit as that may allow him to make the routine plays more frequently. Conversely Vlad is one of the biggest "offenders" when it comes to having fun on the bench, and at the same time he is overaggressive on the bases or stands at home plate and occasionally watches a fly ball clank off of the wall. Are you suggesting that Vlad will make better decisions on the bases if he acts more serious on the bench?

 

A baseball team is made up of a ton of different personalities and as such different players are going to internalize competition differently. Team management has been very careful to cultivate a very close team culture, and part of this entails encouraging players to be themselves. The manager has stated that he wants his team to have fun and stay loose to allow them to perform up to their capabilities. The team is made up of a variety of fun loving goofball types and conversely a collection of more serious types. In my view treating players like they are grade schoolers and forcing them to be uptight/"serious looking" to placate fans doesn't sound like something which would ultimately be beneficial.

 

Nobody is arguing they need to all be robots. You keep making the same argument over and over and literally nobody is saying the things you are trying to defend.

[max silver]

Nobody is arguing they need to all be robots. You keep making the same argument over and over and literally nobody is saying the things you are trying to defend.

 

Then what point are you and Carlos even trying to make? The two of you keep pivoting to talk of lax clubhouse discipline for some reason when I don't think we've ever heard of any issues of this sort with this team. Then the discussion has pivoted to where it's been suggested that the team isn't focused/preparing properly because they appear too happy on the bench.

[Terminator]

Bo got his mini-extension so I'm not expecting much there for now. He just seems less likely to sign one to me for some reason as well.

 

But All is Quiet on the Extend Vlad Jr. Front. I wonder if all these 11 year deals has made an extension less desirable for the team?

 

I was hoping an Austin Riley like extension (10 years and 212M) would materialize but prices might have gone up. Devers had one more year of service time and signed for 10 years 313 mil. It would probably take something between the two to get it done right now?

[John_Havok]

Bo got his mini-extension so I'm not expecting much there for now. He just seems less likely to sign one to me for some reason as well.

 

But All is Quiet on the Extend Vlad Jr. Front. I wonder if all these 11 year deals has made an extension less desirable for the team?

 

I was hoping an Austin Riley like extension (10 years and 212M) would materialize but prices might have gone up. Devers had one more year of service time and signed for 10 years 313 mil. It would probably take something between the two to get it done right now?

 

Yeah probably. My guess would be somehwere between 10/275 and 10/300

[BigCecil]

Bump. Some of the takes in this thread are pretty funny now.

 

The decisions for these 2 are in the windshield. You can play them out 2 years but that also has risks.

 

ATL, LAD and HOU are all top orgs that let Swanson, Seagar and Correa go. They are still upper echelon teams. BoSox let Xander go to a SDP over pay. We should not need these 2 to be a sustainable winner? Or do we?

 

- Almost 26. Bo was a 100 bat in '22 until the last 5 weeks (pulled a reverse Chapman who was hot the first 5 weeks of '23). 5.1 to 4.5 to 3.8 WAR the last three years. Declining BsR value. Sprint speed down from 80th to 40th percentile. Elite bat to ball skills with low BB and high chase. Swings at everything. Adequate but not a long term option at SS - bottom 3rd defensively. 2/22.4M contract.

 

- 24. Vlad xwOBA .374 in '23. 1 WAR. Declining defense. 91st percentile Avg EV. So much has been said. $14.5M AAV going up.

 

I'm not keen on a mega deal for either or letting them go for nothing. Depending on where we are at this deadline they could be on the move. I'd be fine with some team friendly extensions but these guys value themselves highly. I don't see that happening.

[Terminator]

Bump. Some of the takes in this thread are pretty funny now.

 

The decisions for these 2 are in the windshield. You can play them out 2 years but that also has risks.

 

ATL, LAD and HOU are all top orgs that let Swanson, Seagar and Correa go. They are still upper echelon teams. BoSox let Xander go to a SDP over pay. We should not need these 2 to be a sustainable winner? Or do we?

 

- Bo was a 100 bat in '22 until the last 5 weeks (pulled a reverse Chapman who was hot the first 5 weeks of '23). 5.1 to 4.5 to 3.8 WAR the last three years. Declining BsR value. Sprint speed down from 80th to 40th percentile. Elite bat to ball skills with low BB and high chase. Swings at everything. Adequate not but not a long term option at SS - bottom 3rd defensively. 2/22.4M contract.

 

- Vlad xwOBA .374 in '23. 1 WAR. Declining defense. 91st percentile Avg EV. So much has been said. $14.5M AAV going up.

 

I'm not keen on a mega deal for either or letting them go for nothing. Depending on where we are at this deadline they could be on the move. I'd be fine with some team friendly extensions but these guys value themselves highly. I don't see that happening.

 

Yeah extensions seem tough at this point and frankly it's not the end of the world either. The Jays are pretty big spenders now so they could make a trade for a 4+ WAR type and extend that player instead or they could dip into FA and sign a guy to a big deal as well. They were in on Nimmo last year and he's not much worse than Bo or Vlad either.

 

Vlad's price has dropped a ton. I'd still offer him Matt Olson money at 8 years, 160 mil but I doubt he'd be interested with how much he's still due in arb.

[Spanky99]

I don't see much egregious in here... BC, what gives?

[Daniel Labude]

Back up the truck, lock them in

 

Players Bo's age or younger that qualified, Bo and Vlad were top 12 in wRC+

 

Players Vlad's age or younger who qualified, Vlad was 6th in wRC+

 

Both did not meet expectations this season and were still near the top of hitters at their age. You build around these players, not go herpy derpy, WAR

[deanmike]

Yeah extensions seem tough at this point and frankly it's not the end of the world either. The Jays are pretty big spenders now so they could make a trade for a 4+ WAR type and extend that player instead or they could dip into FA and sign a guy to a big deal as well. They were in on Nimmo last year and he's not much worse than Bo or Vlad either.

 

Vlad's price has dropped a ton. I'd still offer him Matt Olson money at 8 years, 160 mil but I doubt he'd be interested with how much he's still due in arb.

 

I almost threw up reading the bolded.

[Spanky99]

Back up the truck, lock them in

 

Players Bo's age or younger that qualified, Bo and Vlad were top 12 in wRC+

 

Players Vlad's age or younger who qualified, Vlad was 6th in wRC+

 

Both did not meet expectations this season and were still near the top of hitters at their age. You build around these players, not go herpy derpy, WAR

 

Games played pro-rated, Bo meets expectations, Vlad wasn't even in the same stratosphere to his projections, lol.

[Spanky99]

Back up the truck, lock them in

 

Players Bo's age or younger that qualified, Bo and Vlad were top 12 in wRC+

 

Players Vlad's age or younger who qualified, Vlad was 6th in wRC+

 

Both did not meet expectations this season and were still near the top of hitters at their age. You build around these players, not go herpy derpy, WAR

 

Games played pro-rated, Bo meets expectations, Vlad wasn't even in the same stratosphere to his projections, lol.I agree with the latter.

[Daniel Labude]

Games played pro-rated, Bo meets expectations, Vlad wasn't even in the same stratosphere to his projections, lol.

 

If a 125 wRC+ is a superstar i dont know what to tell you. Vlad was very good then lmao

[Spanky99]

If a 125 wRC+ is a superstar i dont know what to tell you. Vlad was very good then lmao

 

[Spanky99]

Vlad was projected for a 5.2 WAR season with a 160 wRC+

 

Ended with 1.0 WAR season and a 118 wRC+ = Massive Fail

 

Bo wad projected for a 4.4 WAR season with a 129 wRC+

 

Ended with 3.8 WAR (pro rated at 4.3 WAR) season and a 125 wRC+ = Stud

 

 

LTBF needs to be IL'd by everyone, seriously.

[Daniel Labude]

Vlad was projected for a 5.2 WAR season with a 160 wRC+

 

Ended with 1.0 WAR season and a 118 wRC+ = Massive Fail

 

Bo wad projected for a 4.4 WAR season with a 129 wRC+

 

Ended with 3.8 WAR (pro rated at 4.3 WAR) season and a 125 wRC+ = Stud

 

 

LTBF needs to be IL'd by everyone, seriously.

 

So your expectation was Vlad being the #2 hitter in baseball? And you throw s*** fits when he doesn't meet it? Lmao

[Terminator]

It was frustrating but Vlad will bounce back. He hit the piss out of the ball and got his launch angle up to a career high. His Pull% was a career high too. I wish they would break that down further into how many flyballs were pulled though.

 

Seems like he just needs to make an adjustment and he'll be back on track. Hopefully sucking like he did this year provides him with more motivation.

[Omar]

Bump. Some of the takes in this thread are pretty funny now. .

Names! We want names!

[deanmike]

It was frustrating but Vlad will bounce back. He hit the piss out of the ball and got his launch angle up to a career high. His Pull% was a career high too. I wish they would break that down further into how many flyballs were pulled though.

 

Seems like he just needs to make an adjustment and he'll be back on track. Hopefully sucking like he did this year provides him with more motivation.

 

Maybe more motivation to stress eat by stuffing his face with uncrustables as he continues to watch the 500M deal he thought he would get shrink massively.

[Terminator]

Maybe more motivation to stress eat by stuffing his face with uncrustables as he continues to watch the 500M deal he thought he would get shrink massively.

 

Good job Dean. 80% of your posts continue to be fat jokes. Keep up the good work bud.

[Stangstag]

If a 125 wRC+ is a superstar i dont know what to tell you. Vlad was very good then lmao

 

You seem to completely ignore the positional aspect of player evaluation which is a major factor.

 

Stop being so stubborn